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Tier List Speculation

Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
you mean i can add a whole 21 FRAMES to my aerials! thats insane! and it has a tiny hitbox behind him too that will never extend a combo on anyone that knows how sdi works? GEE PA THATS GREAT!
21 frames to anything. He can cancel any normal into any special(he can cancel up/down-b with an aura charge too). I don't know why you want to make something that has been demonstrably huge to Lucario's game sound bad. Knowing how SDI works, and executing it properly are completely different things. Even if you do SDI it, I doubt you would often get away, the knockback and angle on ASC is perfect to continue things. SDI is probably pretty under-utilized against Lucario, but I see it as a way to escape being dragged by up-b and maybe getting out of jab->tilt->smash at higher percents. SDI doesn't make you magically uncomboable.

I feel like I've personally offended you or something I don't get it.
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
1,674
Dude chill, passive aggressiveness is just going to add fuel to a fire I don't want to start. He dislikes the design and is clearly frustrated by it but getting mad at him won't change his opinion.
passive aggresiveness would mean im not being direct. im being directly sarcastic

21 frames to anything. He can cancel any normal into any special(he can cancel up/down-b with an aura charge too). I don't know why you want to make something that has been demonstrably huge to Lucario's game sound bad. Knowing how SDI works, and executing it properly are completely different things. Even if you do SDI it, I doubt you would often get away, the knockback and angle on ASC is perfect to continue things. SDI is probably pretty under-utilized against Lucario, but I see it as a way to escape being dragged by up-b and maybe getting out of jab->tilt->smash at higher percents. SDI doesn't make you magically uncomboable.
please watch 3.6 lucario because they use asc so much less. its BEEN huge to lucario's game in 3.5, but now, while it is good, its only really used on moves that have less than 21 frames of lag, which is very very little and most of them are to high knockback to get a followup anyway. i was talking about sdi out of the aura charging itself because you mentioned it has a hitbox. lucario's combos on the other hand, usually start with something along the lines of dash attack into up tilt or usmash, something along those lines. what does he do from there? well if they di up he gets an uair or if they di away he gets a side b, but they both are reads. if he asc's they can jump out or attack him if they have a fast enough aerial. from there, its nothing but di reads. the only true "autocombos" he has is dash attack to whatever or jab to whatever, not counting throws. with throws, its mostly kill set ups that other characters have.
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
please watch 3.6 lucario because they use asc so much less. its BEEN huge to lucario's game in 3.5, but now, while it is good, its only really used on moves that have less than 21 frames of lag, which is very very little and most of them are to high knockback to get a followup anyway. i was talking about sdi out of the aura charging itself because you mentioned it has a hitbox. lucario's combos on the other hand, usually start with something along the lines of dash attack into up tilt or usmash, something along those lines. what does he do from there? well if they di up he gets an uair or if they di away he gets a side b, but they both are reads. if he asc's they can jump out or attack him if they have a fast enough aerial. from there, its nothing but di reads. the only true "autocombos" he has is dash attack to whatever or jab to whatever, not counting throws. with throws, its mostly kill set ups that other characters have.
He can definitely react to DI off of up-tilt, I don't know why you'd think a read is required. And you can jump out of up-smash after it connects, but before the hard hit, meaning you can do literally anything to them because they are in hitstun inside of you.

I'd really like to hear opinions from people who actually know how to play as/against this character. I don't know if there's anybody like that though, lol.
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
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Mar 25, 2014
Messages
1,674
He can definitely react to DI off of up-tilt, I don't know why you'd think a read is required. And you can jump out of up-smash after it connects, but before the hard hit, meaning you can do literally anything to them because they are in hitstun inside of you.

I'd really like to hear opinions from people who actually know how to play as/against this character. I don't know if there's anybody like that though, lol.
just because you can double jump doesnt mean all of the reactions you have to maek just dissapear. all of the aerials, specials and follow ups you can get out of usmash are stil the same because you can double jump. they are still mixups and reactions and completely escapable.
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
just because you can double jump doesnt mean all of the reactions you have to maek just dissapear. all of the aerials, specials and follow ups you can get out of usmash are stil the same because you can double jump. they are still mixups and reactions and completely escapable.
You don't understand, you can literally jump-cancel up-smash before the launching hitbox. You can see in debug mode that they are in histun the whole time, there's virtually no knockback so there's nowhere to DI to. Lucario should be able to react to even godlike SDI on this with basic drift because of how close they are to him when he jumps.
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
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Mar 25, 2014
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the sdi modifiers on lucario's usmash is not enough to stop you from getting out, theres several ways you can sdi it that isnt god like as you think it is to get out of followups. even then, he gets a follow up, sure, so what? who cares? the rest of the combo is di-able from there.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
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1,457
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New York
I don't really think transform is as good as your making it out to be. It doesn't really skew any matchups considering zelda and sheik don't really have any ridiculously polarizing matchups to begin with (sheik has one or two, admittedly). At higher levels where an opponent's neutral is more refined and stocks rely more on hard punishes and 1-2 interactions in neutral, both character's struggle (assuming the opponent is playing a strong character) especially since sheik's grab game was scrapped.

You're right in the sense that transform is a dumb mechanic, but I don't understand how it's overpowered and beats counterpicks. Both characters have respective weaknesses and you can only really play one at a time. It forces matchup knowledge, but it's not that good.
That said, I do wish that it was removed. They both have holes in their designs that could be remedied with new attacks. Sheik could be so interesting in terms of gameplay with more than one usable special. However, if for some reason they change transform without first changing chain, I will never play this game again. There's such a stigma against both characters individually, and its getting pretty tiresome.
For the record, I don't think it's overpowered. I think it can be very strong, but not OP. I just think it's dumb.

Edit: SDI modifiers on Lucario up smash are .5x. Kind of hard to SDI.
 
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Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
the sdi modifiers on lucario's usmash is not enough to stop you from getting out, theres several ways you can sdi it that isnt god like as you think it is to get out of followups. even then, he gets a follow up, sure, so what? who cares? the rest of the combo is di-able from there.
It's not broken, it is unintuitive and fairly random. I don't know why you're so intent on stuffing discussion about this character. I will once again re-iterate that even if something is "fair" at high level with appropriate matchup knowledge, that doesn't mean that it's well designed. It's no fun to be cheesed out by something that you have no way of knowing how to stop because you haven't labbed the character yourself.

Another Random thing: his d-air sets hit vertical momentum
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
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Mar 25, 2014
Messages
1,674
if you dont know how to play against lucario and di his mixups, learn how to play against lucario and di his mixups. and thats absolutely what it is, fair at a high level. good design. pretty similar stuff

EDIT:
It's no fun to be cheesed out by something that you have no way of knowing how to stop because you haven't labbed the character yourself.
i just want to highlight how ****ing insane this idea is. learn a character youre playing against, its called matchup knowledge. that is one of the lamest excuses ive ever seen jesus ****ing christ
 
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Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
if you dont know how to play against lucario and di his mixups, learn how to play against lucario and di his mixups. and thats absolutely what it is, fair at a high level. good design. pretty similar stuff

EDIT:

i just want to highlight how ****ing insane this idea is. learn a character youre playing against, its called matchup knowledge. that is one of the lamest excuses ive ever seen jesus ****ing christ
It's not reasonable to expect someone to have 41 matchups down at a high level, in fact it's pretty much impossible. Characters should be intuitive enough to be able to adapt against them mid-match. There is way too much to try and take in without knowing how Lucario works beforehand.
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
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Mar 25, 2014
Messages
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if you lose to a character i expect you to go into the lab and learn how to play against them. if you are worried about a character i expect you to go into the lab and learn how to play against them. 41 matchups, while hard, isnt impossible and any fighting game player that plays games (marvel) with alot of characters should know something like that. learning matchups is part of fighting games, sorry lucario has things that are different than other characters. learn them.
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
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Learning the matchup is one thing - but you should be able to do that by playing it. Placing an unfair burden on players to learn a lot of arcane, unintuitive, highly-MU-specific crap unnecessarily raises the skill floor, slows the advancement of the metagame, and gives PM a bad name. That's why I fought so hard to get a lot of Bowser's wildly unintuitive stuff changed, even though the 'jank' benefited me personally to a great degree - there's not much fun in winning when your opponent feels it was unfair and that you somehow cheated; regardless of whether or not his feelings are valid.
 
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Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
if you lose to a character i expect you to go into the lab and learn how to play against them. if you are worried about a character i expect you to go into the lab and learn how to play against them. 41 matchups, while hard, isnt impossible and any fighting game player that plays games (marvel) with alot of characters should know something like that. learning matchups is part of fighting games, sorry lucario has things that are different than other characters. learn them.
I'll re-iterate again, I don't think it really personally effects me. Samus probably does well against Lucario, and I have a basic understanding of his jank. It just makes the game look bad imo(get triggered guttey). I don't know what the common outside perspective is on Lucario but I have found him alienating since I started playing.
 
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steelguttey

mei is bei
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Mar 25, 2014
Messages
1,674
it should never ever be a problem that you have to learn the matchup through other means but playing it to learn it. research is half the battle, going into a game and calling stuff "jank" is what melee players are doing to pm and is why they dont like the game. and god ****ing damnit stop using the term jank, youre playing a new game with new mechanics, you have no excuse. it isnt jank if its something thats not impossible to discover.
 
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Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
it should never ever be a problem that you have to learn the matchup through other means but playing it to learn it. research is half the battle, going into a game and calling stuff "jank" is what melee players are doing to pm and is why they dont like the game. and god ****ing damnit stop using the term jank, youre playing a new game with new mechanics, you have no excuse.
I'm sorry I ran out of synonyms and angered you with "jank".

it isnt jank if its something thats impossible to discover.
I believe you mean possible to discover.
 
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steelguttey

mei is bei
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Mar 25, 2014
Messages
1,674
yea sorry, edited

my problem is that jank is a word that has been used as a way of avoiding definitions in argueents for so long. it hasnt had a definition and it never will. the only thing i can understand it means is either "weird" or "dumb" but even that is a loose translation
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
lucario is fine
ever play as or against old version of diddy?
he's still worse than lucario ever could be with counterjank out the ***
Old Diddy was stupid, but everything made sense. After you trip on a banana once you understand the concept. Didn't make the character fair at all, but there was nothing incredibly goofy that you couldn't figure out from a few games. I guess side-b was a little silly?
 
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Rᴏb

still here, just to suffer
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
1,595
You basically had to have a better item-game than the Diddy you were facing. I'd argue that that would take more than a few games to figure out and is a lot deeper than "oh i can trip on bananas" what with you having to not only understand what Diddy could do with bananas, but what your character could do as well. Lucario doesn't come close imo
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
You basically had to have a better item-game than the Diddy you were facing. I'd argue that that would take more than a few games to figure out and is a lot deeper than "oh i can trip on bananas" what with you having to not only understand what Diddy could do with bananas, but what your character could do as well. Lucario doesn't come close imo
I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. At the very least it's approachable and understandable.
 

xLithiumx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Chicago
I think some characters need some of their old stuff back. Like Ike's old N-air, and some could argue that Sonic needs his down-b stuff back, but not me since Sonic is still pretty good. I don't understand why Wolf's side-b takes his double jump though. Plus, I think Sheik needs some landing lag on her up-b cuz, legit, you can land and almost instantly shield which is broken af. One does not simply land on the stage after recovering and not got punished.

The one character I don't think needs a nerf is Fox. Fox will always be top tier no matter what since he's just designed so good. His lasers are meh to me since I don't camp... ever. You grab him and that should be stock unless you're Falco in which case shine -> combo -> stock, hopefully, or maybe Wolf but idk since I've never used Wolf. Since Fox can waveshine light characters, I guess you could say that's a problem, but I've only got two in a row before it gets DI'ed out of so meh. Plus, Fox is pretty easy to edgeguard since you can predict when he'll side-b or react when he'll up-b. I just don't really see Fox as a problem since I've learned him and know how to deal with him. :ohwell:
 

xLithiumx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Chicago
Aight, you got me, you got me lol.

But in all seriousness, I think it would help if people said which character they're using against Fox since maybe other members can give them tips or something, or check the MU threads but based off of all the stuff I've seen people say about Fox, it doesn't seem like they help much.

I main Fox/Falco so against Fox I can do the same things I would do in Melee, but for other characters what I previously said may be a good idea.
 

Narelex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
367
Location
Calgary, Alberta
I'm starting the trend of retiring the word "Jank" as a way to describe a character right now. Its a buzzword that has absolutely no positive connotations when talking about a characters balance/tools.

Grab a thesaurus everyone you're going have to use some big words now. :bubblebobble:
 
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Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
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Grieving No Longer
Not to take the wind out of your sails, but I've been complaining about "poorly designed gimmicky jank" as a way to describe stuff for a while now. (Which is to say: I agree!)

If you can't share your thoughts on an aspect of PM in a reasonably-detailed, reasonably-concise way, you probably haven't thought hard enough about the issue yet.
 

Jaedrik

Man-at-Arms-at-Keyboard
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
5,054
PMDT thinks that Sheik's b-throw is OP because it allows her to "infinite tech chase".

That's the stupidest reasoning I've ever heard. If someone can so reliably predict or react to an opponent that they can INFINITE them via techchase, there's something wrong with the opponent. Yet they're fine with MK's dthrow tech chase even though he has more time to react, a better dash, a better dashgrab, more range on grab, and a real dashdance? ? ?

What's up with this irrational hatred of Sheik that causes such inconsistency?
 

Narelex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
367
Location
Calgary, Alberta
PMDT thinks that Sheik's b-throw is OP because it allows her to "infinite tech chase".

That's the stupidest reasoning I've ever heard. If someone can so reliably predict or react to an opponent that they can INFINITE them via techchase, there's something wrong with the opponent. Yet they're fine with MK's dthrow tech chase even though he has more time to react, a better dash, a better dashgrab, more range on grab, and a real dashdance? ? ?

What's up with this irrational hatred of Sheik that causes such inconsistency?
MK's might be powerful but there's still player interaction and choices that happen during the techchasing. Some techrolls likely need to be brought up to par but that's an issue with other characters not MK in particular.

What is poorly designed was not being able to do anything if the Sheik played properly since she could regrab the DI away anyway and her throws were far to fast to react to for anyone with less then amazing reaction time, so you had to guess. Which almost always eventually lead to a slap. Lack of interaction is one of the ways to tell if something is poorly designed, Sure it felt great for the Sheik player but it felt horrible for their opponents and you have to look at the big picture when designing games not just yourself.

(Not sure why Sheik gets the short end of the stick for certain things though)
 
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Jaedrik

Man-at-Arms-at-Keyboard
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
5,054
MK's might be powerful but there's still player interaction and choices that happen during the techchasing. Some techrolls likely need to be brought up to par but that's an issue with other characters not MK in particular.

What is poorly designed was not being able to do anything if the Sheik played properly since she could regrab the DI away anyway and her throws were far to fast to react to (unless you're Armada) so you had to guess which eventually lead to a slap. Lack of interaction is one of the ways to tell if something is poorly designed, Sure it felt great for the Sheik player but it felt horrible for their opponents and you have to look at the big picture when designing games not just yourself.

Please keep your ranting and buzzwords to yourself it makes you look childish.
I don't understand. You seem to have misunderstood what I said. We're talking about techchasing from Sheik's back throw. Reacting with a techroll etc. mixup doesn't take Armada level reaction. The inconsistency remains, since MK puts the opponent in the same situation with better options.

btw I don't actually play Sheik (that much) in Melee, I just put that there because someone did one of those "you have to have sex with one of your mains which one" things, so I have no personal investment in Sheik being good.
 
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4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
MK's might be powerful but there's still player interaction and choices that happen during the techchasing. Some techrolls likely need to be brought up to par but that's an issue with other characters not MK in particular.

What is poorly designed was not being able to do anything if the Sheik played properly since she could regrab the DI away anyway and her throws were far to fast to react to (unless you're Armada) so you had to guess which eventually lead to a slap. Lack of interaction is one of the ways to tell if something is poorly designed, Sure it felt great for the Sheik player but it felt horrible for their opponents and you have to look at the big picture when designing games not just yourself.
I think that guessing game both players played with DI was interactive. Also if you could get the regrab on DI away anyway then perhaps the base KB should have been increased so you got techchase/regrab on bad DI and nothing on good DI? Or change the angle so the followups were never tipper upsmash even on bad DI?

Which part was the problem, and how can we adjust for that while keeping the good parts? If the package overall was the problem, then we can take away part or weaken every piece. It just seems extremely lame to remove it outright. That's also how a lot of people felt about the 3.5 changes.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
it was already that way in 3.5, you DI away and up, the DI away on the followup and you can generally reset to neutral. its also not particularly hard to react to.
 

Narelex

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
367
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Calgary, Alberta
it was already that way in 3.5, you DI away and up, the DI away on the followup and you can generally reset to neutral. its also not particularly hard to react to.
Again this is something "We" can react to but the average player can't. This is what I meant by thinking about the overall picture instead of just a certain demographic. Despite PM favouring competitive players doesn't mean we should forget the masses, Just because it had counterplay doesn't mean it was "fun" and that is a huge topic most people seem to forget when talking about balance.

I will admit I worded it a little poorly. (whoops)

I don't understand. You seem to have misunderstood what I said. We're talking about techchasing from Sheik's back throw. Reacting with a techroll etc. mixup doesn't take Armada level reaction. The inconsistency remains, since MK puts the opponent in the same situation with better options.

btw I don't actually play Sheik (that much) in Melee, I just put that there because someone did one of those "you have to have sex with one of your mains which one" things, so I have no personal investment in Sheik being good.
Yeah think I missed the context a little on that one My bad dude. Edited my original post so give it a second look.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
22 frames is a lot of time to react compared to a lot of stuff in this game, especially since you can just react to being grabbed and not the throw itself.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
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If they want to play Melee Fox its not like Melee has died, it has a bigger scene then PM and was at EVO for gods sakes.
To me this is the biggest reason to change fox
your other reason, fox being uninteractive due to lasers, isn't really that big a deal in PM because A) this is not a very effective strategy against faster characters who can corner fox if he retreats with lasers, 2) lasers deal way less damage in PM, so the range at which you'd usually want to shoot them they only do 1-2 and the range at which they do 3 you usually don't want to shoot them, lastly) other characters have means to encourage fox to approach, projectiles/potent charge moves. I'm not implying I don't think fox is stupidly good, but having such a great horizontal DD + jump speeds and fall speeds equivalent of a vertical DD to me is way more significant than his lasers.
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
I'm starting the trend of retiring the word "Jank" as a way to describe a character right now. Its a buzzword that has absolutely no positive connotations when talking about a characters balance/tools.

Grab a thesaurus everyone you're going have to use some big words now. :bubblebobble:
I already used arbitrary, unintuitive, arcane, bizarre, weird, and random to describe how I feel about Lucario's design. I avoided the "j" word as long as I could.
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
I have a basic understanding of his jank
Not convinced. Your opening post on the topic came off as less generally educated on Lucario's mechanics than I was within my first week of playing PM. As such, a lot of what you're saying strikes me as willful ignorance rather than a design problem with the character.

Lucario's kit is quite clearly tuned around the OHC mechanic. He generally doesn't follow up very well without making use of it. Even with the magic series, his combo potential is not as good as you seem to think. Good use of his supers is what really makes his punish game so explosive because it can either extend combos in unusual ways or net him early kills. Everything else is basically a sped-up version of what other characters do. Not all of his stuff is true combos, he still makes use of frame traps and tech chases. His kit is also relatively devoid of DI mixups - it's not like every hit is his own personal variant of Sheik's old throw mixups. Even if you don't fully understand what's going on, you should have a general sense of how to respond once you get over the initial surprise of seeing his OHCs.

Given that knowledge, counterplay becomes pretty clear. The primary goal is to limit his ability to generate and utilize aura. The less he gets off each conversion and the more often he's forced to use it for things other than damage, the more he'll struggle. This is a principle that is both effective and relatively simple to apply.

I honestly don't see the problem here. Yes, it's unusual for a Smash game. No, it's not nearly as opaque to the opposing player as you're trying to make it out to be, and the PMDT has done a good job of cleaning up his design with changes like ASC endlag (still useful, but no longer overshadows the rest of his magic series in so many situations) and changes to aura generation.

I'd argue Fox is not very interactive if played optimally since he just stays across the stage shooting lasers at you until "you" do something and you have to approach Fox or the lasers will rack up % on you.
I really don't like Fox's lasers. They're incredibly rewarding even in their nerfed state, yet have very one-dimensional "counterplay". Not fun. I'd much rather play with or against something like Wolf's blaster, that thing is cool. Too bad I hate Wolf's shine sound effect, RIP :rolleyes:

Speaking of sound effects, Mewtwo's fair? Biggest nerf was the audio change. Sounds like a knife through wet sandpaper, do not like.

Reminder that Lucas is really good. Somebody not named PF/Neon needs to break out and show what's really up with this character. So much he can do, so many solutions to perceived issues in his kit if you're looking at him from that state of mind.

edit before I forget:

Are you sure you read what I proposed correctly?
I skimmed and missed the specific suggestion, my b. That sounds like a pretty awkward workaround, assuming it's something that'd even be reasonable to implement. Can't say I much care for it.
 
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Narelex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
367
Location
Calgary, Alberta
To me this is the biggest reason to change fox
your other reason, fox being uninteractive due to lasers, isn't really that big a deal in PM because A) this is not a very effective strategy against faster characters who can corner fox if he retreats with lasers, 2) lasers deal way less damage in PM, so the range at which you'd usually want to shoot them they only do 1-2 and the range at which they do 3 you usually don't want to shoot them, lastly) other characters have means to encourage fox to approach, projectiles/potent charge moves. I'm not implying I don't think fox is stupidly good, but having such a great horizontal DD + jump speeds and fall speeds equivalent of a vertical DD to me is way more significant than his lasers.
The lasers were more to illustrate a point then saying "this is his worst trait" its much easier to explain to someone that the lasers rack up free damage and require you to take action, Then say explaining any of the more specific things that only advanced players will understand. He has other parts of his kit that are far worse.

I agree with your post entirely. I just want to generate discussion on a character I feel needs to be looked at.

I think that guessing game both players played with DI was interactive. Also if you could get the regrab on DI away anyway then perhaps the base KB should have been increased so you got techchase/regrab on bad DI and nothing on good DI? Or change the angle so the followups were never tipper upsmash even on bad DI?

Which part was the problem, and how can we adjust for that while keeping the good parts? If the package overall was the problem, then we can take away part or weaken every piece. It just seems extremely lame to remove it outright. That's also how a lot of people felt about the 3.5 changes.
Interactive doesn't necessarily mean healthy or fun. Its why good Design in games is so hard. There's so many sides to everything and a massive amount of information that needs to be understood.

I already used arbitrary, unintuitive, arcane, bizarre, weird, and random to describe how I feel about Lucario's design. I avoided the "j" word as long as I could.
Was just talking about the community in general. I noticed your effort and it was appreciated.
 
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