Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

wario can't tech-chase repeatedly with it. & this is absurdly disrespectful dude, seriously? nerfed my chars 3 patches in a row lol

it's like you've never even heard about the old DK buff jokes

though jokes aside, wario's side b is too easy imo. I dont get why he gets to have a move that can be jumped with if he uses it on the ground to prevent a large chunk of endlag he wouldnt otherwise have

 

[Narpas_sword]

it's like you've never even heard about the old DK buff jokes

With all the **** PMDT have to wade through with each knee-jerk reaction to any change in the change-list, i don't feel its appropriate to throw jokes in there =/


guys must be stressed as it is without having to put up with jokes at their expence

 

[Blank Mauser]

so the biggest thing that the fox changes affect imo is the threat of double shine pressure
ie it isn't really a threat because the 2nd hit is aire shine, and air shine makes them land immediately. Its still the same frame advantage on shield and all but getting hit by it isn't as painful, so if your roll gets caught by a double shine you can actually retaliate immediately

edit: % and character dependent of course, forgot we have to keep that in mind now with air shine lol

I've been messing with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opgSzGfp5Bs

I can shine combo Jigglypuff now. Mistakes will be made rofl

 

[Sir Tundra]

I've been messing with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opgSzGfp5Bs

I can shine combo Jigglypuff now. Mistakes will be made rofl

It is the year 20XX. Smasher discovers that it's possible to waveshine jigglypuff, HungryBox quits smash.

 

[941]

So I finally had some time to play around with 3.6 beta, and I made some discoveries regarding Ice Climbers:
As documented, the momentum bug was fixed, however, I've also discovered some undocumented changes (PMDT Pls).
The ability to control Nana's throw direction, and therefore, perform infinite handoffs on any character was removed, and Nana will now always throw toward the ledge, or U-throw based on stage position.
Nana no longer uses Up-B for recovery when She isn't close enough to grab the ledge. This change is a positive, as it makes saving Nana generally easier for the ICs player.
This is all I've found so far, but if I discover any more changes I'll share them.

Basically, No more infinite, but the momentum bug has been removed and the Nana AI is slightly better at recovering. I would say this is a slight nerf to the character in terms of strength, but a step in the right direction for the character's design.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

With this do you have enough frame advantage to do a wave shine (with difficulty of double shines of course) the light characters? At what percents?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

sorry for the brevity, trying to do a lot of things right now:

it does require a read, that's the point of the mixup.
waft was also made weaker

It does one percent less with the fart hitbox and two percent less with the head hitbox, that's not limiting wafts kill potential at all.

 

[Blank Mauser]

With this do you have enough frame advantage to do a wave shine (with difficulty of double shines of course) the light characters? At what percents?

I doubt it with Smash DI especially, but I'm fairly sure up to around 50~ you can get Uthrow or Nair. Its good on airborne opponents too. You can also crouch cancel it, but then Fox just does ground shine.

I really wanna test this out in the Ivysaur match-up. :V

 

[Strong Badam]

It does one percent less with the fart hitbox and two percent less with the head hitbox, that's not limiting wafts kill potential at all.

Damage is a huge part of the KB formula. They kill like 15-20% later depending on DI dude.

 

[steelguttey]

Oilman is still the worst ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

i dont even care if youre trolling but

no

edit: to expand on what niglido said, yes. olimar is great now but rng still exists. people just need to learn the mu now and stop whining if they do think hes oh pee

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Damage is a huge part of the KB formula. They kill like 15-20% later depending on DI dude.

Damage is part of the kb formula, that's true and I understand that, but the knock back lost from 1% percent, when the move deals 25 on full charge, is a small drop in the bucket. It's still a nerf, I will say that, but it's an extremely small one. Also I'm skeptical on it killing 15-20%, 10-15% or 5-10% sounds like more of a thing.

 

[Strong Badam]

Have you even tried it? Lol I've been playing with it for 4 months and ran knockback simulations in excel with it dude. I know what I'm talking about here. They also did 22 and 20 damage respectively; neither did 25.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Thanks for costing me a night of sleep

Fox got his recovery endlag, guess I'm not quitting this game.

Now to find a ****ing TV for my apartment -_-

 

[Apollo Ali]

sorry for the brevity, trying to do a lot of things right now:

it does require a read, that's the point of the mixup.

I mean that comboing into waft should require a read. Once you know that they guessed wrong on the 50/50, the waft is guaranteed on reaction. I was saying that it would be good if the DI mixup was changed so that you ALSO had to read, say, a tech or double jump or something, as opposed to "did they DI in? They're dead."

Meanwhile, I have to decide between like 5 different, completely unguaranteed options depending on what a person does when I spit them out of swallow, AND IT NEVER LEADS TO THEM DEAD Not to mention swallow itself got nerfed.

EDIT: Besides that, I think he's kinda balanced. I'll have to see how much the waft nerf affected him, but I imagine it's still really powerful.

 

[D e l t a]

i dont even care if youre trolling but

no

edit: to expand on what niglido said, yes. olimar is great now but rng still exists. people just need to learn the mu now and stop whining if they do think hes oh pee

I mained the character in Brawl where he would be considered OP if directly ported to PM. It's not like I don't know the MU or how to deal with a weaker / slower everything. In no way am I whining; if anything, I'm happy that the character has received changes in areas where he once was significantly lacking. Once I get to test 3.6 I'm excited to see if the character still feels as good as in Brawl.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Apollo Ali I just can't think rationally about Wario at all - he makes me so salty when I play against him with Browser. The changes they did make to him look pretty solid, though.

 

[JOE!]

Have you even tried it? Lol I've been playing with it for 4 months and ran knockback simulations in excel with it dude. I know what I'm talking about here. They also did 22 and 20 damage respectively; neither did 25.

Pretty much this. You all would be surprised at what a difference 1-2% makes on a move's knockback.

 

[Professor Pro]

Another version with Snake being even more OP

 

[Idostuff]

I'm interested to see how Links buffs will effect his tier list status. Better movement is always a good thing. Having lowe friction doesnt just mean he has a better wd though, it also means its harder for him to be drill shined. Also ftilt was buffed thank god. It isn't 3.0 strong anymore but in 3.5 it was a completely useless move.

 

[FreeGamer]

Without anything silly like 2.1 D-Throw or pre-3.5 Boomerang, he'll have a hard time not being in the lower half of the roster.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Daily reminder that Sheik, ROB, and Lucario all got nerfed waaaaay harder than Fox or Roy
Like I understand the need for changes to the first three. I don't understand why nobody pulled the trigger on the same treatment for the other two

 

[TreK]

Damage is part of the kb formula, that's true and I understand that, but the knock back lost from 1% percent, when the move deals 25 on full charge, is a small drop in the bucket. It's still a nerf, I will say that, but it's an extremely small one. Also I'm skeptical on it killing 15-20%, 10-15% or 5-10% sounds like more of a thing.

Don't underestimate damage. Ivy's upB went from 18% to 14% in the 3.5 transition. No change to bkb or kbg. It went from killing at 70% to killing at 120%.
It's now at 15% and kills at 100%, still no change to bkb or kbg

Damage plays a HUGE role.

 

[AceGamer]

Daily reminder that Sheik, ROB, and Lucario all got nerfed waaaaay harder than Fox or Roy
Like I understand the need for changes to the first three. I don't understand why nobody pulled the trigger on the same treatment for the other two

Roy isn't as complained about as much as Fox, ROB, Sheik or Lucario tho. The only real problems people complained about was his dtilt and up B hang time and both of those got changed

 

[DrinkingFood]

number of complaints =/= amount of needed change
Roy is still basically a better marth, by a large margin

doesn't account for Fox either.

 

[Strong Badam]

Daily reminder that Sheik, ROB, and Lucario all got nerfed waaaaay harder than Fox or Roy
Like I understand the need for changes to the first three. I don't understand why nobody pulled the trigger on the same treatment for the other two

I don't really care to start a drawn out debate over it (so, I would like to warn you and anyone else responding that a further response from me is unlikely), but this logic is pretty faulty. Trying to ensure that similarly powered characters who are considered problematic end up in a similar power group with each other afterward leads to more problems than it helps. You basically start doing things like:
1. Changing things that aren't problematic to keep them of similar levels
2. Not changing things that are problematic to keep them of similar levels
3. Functioning on a premise that X character "deserves" to be Y level of "good," which is obviously bad for your game.

The PMDT very rarely takes issue with characters who are simply "good," rather, characters that have attributes that go against our design philosophies and goals, outlined in a few blogposts leading up to 3.5. Sometimes, characters are good without conflicting with those goals, or characters are in a similar tier with varying levels of confliction with those goals. That's why you see discrepancy between how significantly characters are changed, and not based on how good they were perceived to be. That said, of course 3.6 isn't perfect, but I think most would consider it a significant improvement as we work toward a final version.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The PMDT very rarely takes issue with characters who are simply "good," rather, characters that have attributes that go against our design philosophies and goals, outlined in a few blogposts leading up to 3.5. Sometimes, characters are good without conflicting with those goals, or characters are in a similar tier with varying levels of confliction with those goals. That's why you see discrepancy between how significantly characters are changed, and not based on how good they were perceived to be. That said, of course 3.6 isn't perfect, but I think most would consider it a significant improvement as we work toward a final version.

so fox doesn't have like, 11 or 50 attributes that go against PMDT's design philosophy? I guess that makes sense, given the design philosphy up until this point, and even largely in 3.6, has been "bcuz maylay"

 

[Strong Badam]

...Are you asking me of all people to defend Fox?

 

[Kidneyjoe]

I think the PMDT is just using a strategy of toning him down incrementally with each patch, not ignoring his problems bcuz melee. Given the backlash that even these changes has caused I can hardly blame them if that's the case.

 

[D e l t a]

@ DrinkingFood You forgot to mention Lucas from every patch, ever.

Inb4 "oh he was broken"

Pretty much every patch, Lucas has been changed in some way, shape or form. It's funny to see everybody complain about one move "changing their muscle memory" when most of his entire kit has been changed around.

 

[didds]

Hey guys, I think squirtle and pikachu are great still, let's talk about the guys I like

Both top half of cast

 

[Nausicaa]

Too small
No range
Bottom tier

 

[Life]

Too small
No range
Bottom tier

I'm surprised you of all people would simplify matters so much.

Not a judgment on you or your opinion, just a statement.

 

[eideeiit]

A victim of the post-kappa world

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I'm surprised you of all people would simplify matters so much.

Not a judgment on you or your opinion, just a statement.

I could be wrong, but I think that was a joke. Hasn't Nausica always thought Pikachu was really good but nobody else does?

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think the PMDT is just using a strategy of toning him down incrementally with each patch, not ignoring his problems bcuz melee. Given the backlash that even these changes has caused I can hardly blame them if that's the case.

How is that a valid strategy when they tone every other character down every patch, too
eventually we will have removed all moves from the game, except fox's down-b
look, they even started with ROB's side-b, it's not even a move anymore
you press side-b and literally nothing happens

 

[AceGamer]

I think it's meant to be just a reflector now

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Have you even tried it? Lol I've been playing with it for 4 months and ran knockback simulations in excel with it dude. I know what I'm talking about here. They also did 22 and 20 damage respectively; neither did 25.

I could've sworn it did 25%, but I just double checked and you're correct. My b duder, I usually don't post unless I'm fairly certain of something, but I can admit when I'm in the wrong. Though to me, it still seems like it's not such a significant decrease in kill potential that it would change much, but maybe I'll notice it better if I have a long practice session.

But just to let you know, I have played earlier builds of 3.6 with KOkingpin, who's on the dev team, and I can't say I've ever noticed a difference. Though that could've been because I seldom use fart unless I know it's going to kill, or maybe because I was drunk and was too busy trying to footstool people in sub optimal situations to notice.

 

[Ogopogo]

or maybe because I was drunk and was too busy trying to footstool people in sub optimal situations to notice.

the 3.6 footstool changes are the biggest wario nerf in the whole history of PM
but especially for the pickler

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why did they give footstool a 20 frame fail window without also giving it a hitbox that makes sense? With something that requires such specific placement due to a tiny hitbox that only lasts one frame in a weird location, with the reward generally being small onstage (only the possibility of forcing a missed tech really), you figure they'd make it work like a jab or something where it lasts like 3 frames (and maybe has a little more reach) when they add the fail window to it.

I think it's meant to be just a reflector now

I was half joking, yeah it's a reflector now; it's basically the worst reflector in the game far as I can tell. Every other reflector has some kind of use outside of reflecting, meanwhile ROB's reflector's strong hit can't even knock down (meaning it can be ASDI'd down to CC) until ~50%
honestly I think me and most other ROB mains would rather just have the old move back without reflection properties
oh well

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Small reward onstage yes, reward nonetheless in my eyes, but offstage you can get a lot out of it. The down throw setups into it for some characters are absolutely disgusting. Honestly, I'm pretty cool with the fail window, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see where and what the hitbox on footstool looks like.