Tier List Speculation

[Burnsy]

As opposed to putting our fingers in our ears and screaming whenever someone wants to acknowledge a character's strengths and weaknesses, which I'm sure would run like a jet engine

Or, instead of wasting time with sarcastic posts, we could be discussing those strengths and weaknesses more accurately by actually relating them to relevant MUs, which was what the post I quoted was suggesting.

Tier placements that are legitimate reflect MU spreads as closely as possible. Discussing MUs gives us a more complete and focused analysis of a character than a random assortment of people's offhand impressions. It also gives people a chance to point out flaws in each others understanding of a characters strength and weaknesses in a specific MU. Judging the goodness of characters in a vacuum (which happens here often) is silly because it assumes you can take a list of qualities or a few exemplary matches you know and accurately theorycraft the results of that character's 32 or so MUs.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So stop talking about talking about Matchups and start talking about Matchups.

Let's discuss Sonic vs Charizard. For being a Sonic matchup, I'd say it's closer to even than it could be. Nair goes a long way in telling Sonic to stay on the ground, not that he minds doing so.

 

[CORY]

Oracle's still adamant about Ness being something other than terrible?

y'know, the easy way to shut him up is to show up and beat him (well, really, beat our local ness).

 

[ItalianStallion]

I love this. I love you.

I'm probably going to get some hate for this, but I think this thread is really, really useless as far as advancing the metagame through discussion goes.

i've been saying this for months.... great post Stallion

Aww...thank you guys.

So stop talking about talking about Matchups and start talking about Matchups.

Let's discuss Sonic vs Charizard. For being a Sonic matchup, I'd say it's closer to even than it could be. Nair goes a long way in telling Sonic to stay on the ground, not that he minds doing so.

I don't mind Sonic versus Zard. Against Sonic, it's all about timing, and I find Zard has really good interrupters that will as a bonus put Sonic in an exploitable position. If Zard is on the ground and a Sonic is approaching, a well timed jab will do the trick. Or a sweeping d-tilt. Or a quick SHFFLed nair.

If Zard is in the air against an approaching Sonic, then nair will almost always do the trick. If Sonic ever gets all up in your face, a Zard player shouldn't be afraid to use up B if they think they can get away with it. I like stages like Dreamland for Zard for this reason (If Zard does an up b from the ground on Dreamland and other stages with similar top platform heights, his up b will barely go above the top platform thereby resulting in a very short special fall time). I don't really care for Dreamland against Sonic for another reason though. I find that giving him room to survive will only put the matchup in his favor since he can neutral b, double jump, neutral b, and up b. Small stages ensure that Sonic gets killed early, which I find to be one of the most important aspects to fighting against Sonic. Don't let the match go too long. Sonic has too strong of a neutral game to let matches play out this way. If an opportunity presents itself, take it! Almost any attack Zard has will beat out any of Sonic's. Plus, trading with Sonic is better for you since Zard has a much higher damage output and gets more out of trading than Sonic does. Sonic excels on hitting the opponent and not giving him a chance to hit back. Take that away and you have a much better match-up.

Sonic is faster than Zard, but Zard is still pretty fast. I enjoy picking really small stages against Sonic and trying to rush him down to make Sonic not feel in control of the match. If a Sonic tries to camp Zard on a large stage, Zard still has some nice unconventional movement options to make camping him out a lot harder (Down B Jump, glide, two double jumps, etc.)

Overall, I would say 60-40 in Zard's favor. My opinion might change if I ever fight a true Sonic main, but as of now, I find the match-up to be a good one for Zard.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I find it hard to believe that smart dashdancing and Down-B from Sonic doesn't invalidate Charizard's entire moveset (I mean, he's pretty fat). Charizard -is- fast, but he gets juggled and combo'd to hell and back, and trades don't matter when Sonic has all the tools to prevent trade situations.

Moving backward (before AND after moving forward) is the name of the game. I don't see how jumping and Charizard's slow-ass glide do anything to prevent it if the Sonic is pretending to play Melee with a special emphasis on Down-B.

Also, Ness is probably a half-decent character at worst. People get so vitriolic when their character is listed as low tier, but it's often better to consider general viability over number placing. A (hypothetical) character who is generally voted #30 in the cast may still be tournament-viable if the game design is kind enough. Don't get upset, just talk about what they are (and aren't) capable of.

 

[Deleted member]

sonic vs charizard is laughably bad from a theoretical standpoint in my head. i just don't see it.

 

[Vashimus]

Pretty old, since Sethlon and metroid don't play Sonic and Charizard anymore, but it's a match nonetheless.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pretty old, since Sethlon and metroid don't play Sonic and Charizard anymore, but it's a match nonetheless.

Watching this video makes me inclined to disagree with you. metroid's "real" opportunities almost always came from Sethlon getting predictable with stuff like Neutral-B to get on the stage or attempting to be unnecessarily risky/greedy. Anything else was "Jab/N-Air until he runs into my moves," which tends to be too laggy, immobile, and predictable to work against a Sonic hedging his bets. A matchup that revolves entirely around your opponent making significant mistakes just doesn't add up to "viable."

 

[Vashimus]

Disagree with me on what? I just posted a vid. :v

 

[Nausicaa]

If we all pretended there was only 1 criteria, being 'good enough' or 'not quite good enough' then who would be the 'not quite' characters?
Sure some characters probably won't be winning big tournaments on their own, but they can still be 'good enough' in that they're functional much of the time.

Characters that fall under too good (edit: or too bad, like Dedede being sluggish) generally have to have some overwhelming design flaw, not just well-rounded goodness. Ike being toned from silly to functional, both in viability and less-linearity is an example of that.

Little Too Good
Sonic (maybe he's the only character that fits here in 2.5)

Not Good Enough
Dedede (still see him as the only one that fits here in 2.5)






Does anyone ELSE fit (DISTINCTLY, I mean like they stand OUT this way) as TOO GOOD, or NOT TOO GOOD in this game?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Disagree with me on what? I just posted a vid. :v

Mod powers, activate--

Pretty old, but Sethlon vs Metroid nonetheless. It's winnable, but Charizard has to work a helluva lot more.

Edited by Vashimus, Today at 10:37 AM
IP: 69.115.104.16 ool-45736810.dyn.optonline.net

I don't feel it's realistically winnable.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Can we get a list of MUs that people think go against sonic, or even 50-50? Also, most sonic players would lose to most zard players, sethlon and wizzy are outliers, but they're still important in terms of balance disucssion.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's also worth noting that "most players" of any character don't have much idea what they're doing and therefore don't matter much in terms of balance discussion. Having a greater understanding of options and spacing tools is a prerequisite for being able to see what's good and bad from a competitive standpoint.

As far as I can tell, a lot of the Melee high tiers stand the greatest chance against Sonic. I can see Peach and Falco doing well, as I imagine they have the tools to negate some of Sonic's most toxic properties. Peach's rate of hitboxes do a crazy-good job of keeping people out of her personal space, and Falco has a gun to threaten Down-B and general stage control everywhere. Sheik and Fox could be reasonable, perhaps, with needles and lasers (especially needles) being able to threaten a camping Sonic, and generally great hitbox placement/duration/speed to be able to swing and miss more safely than most characters.

Toon Link and Diddy may do well, as AGT and general movement speed are both nice for keeping up in the neutral position. Other than that, I'm not quite sure.

Regardless, it's not matchups that people are really concerned with in terms of Sonic--It's the fact that he never actually has to play Smash Brothers. There is nothing okay with Down-B camping being superior to virtually every other spacing tool. In a game where movement is key, the fastest character in the game also has a cancelable (via wavedash) combo tool that clanks with most ground moves, goes into multiple KO options, is impossible to react to when used intelligently, and requires zero commitment or anything beyond an "if x, y" level of thinking in terms of efficient use makes it so that no significant thought is required when playing him.

Note that all the characters I mentioned have rather extreme, rather unique traits that aren't common in the game. All the characters I've mentioned have relatively versatile/ranged hitboxes, and/or great mobility, and/or can threaten an opponent from a full screen away. People are forced to play the game this way because Sonic is able to effortlessly dictate the way matches must be played (or, depending on how you see it, how they must NOT be played). Virtually every other character is left in the dust, and the ones that are not are playing a very specific game that almost no one is interested in playing, either from a casual or a competitive standpoint. It's overcentralizing in a very bad way and does not promote enjoyable gameplay or thoughtful strategy.

 

[ELI-mination]

Don't care to join in on this discussion honestly, but I just wanna point out that Diddy doesn't beat Sonic, mostly because Sonic can spindash right over his bananas and not even trip.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Watching this video makes me inclined to disagree with you. metroid's "real" opportunities almost always came from Sethlon getting predictable with stuff like Neutral-B to get on the stage or attempting to be unnecessarily risky/greedy. Anything else was "Jab/N-Air until he runs into my moves," which tends to be too laggy, immobile, and predictable to work against a Sonic hedging his bets. A matchup that revolves entirely around your opponent making significant mistakes just doesn't add up to "viable."

I watched the video too. The important thing to remember is that Zard's moves beat Sonic's most of the time. So as long as the Zard's timing is tight, getting the Sonic player to run into his moves shouldn't be a huge problem. However, the thing I found most interesting is that the matches turned in Metroid's favor once he started being more aggressive. The first couple matches he tried to win the neutral game, which Zard doesn't want to even attempt to do versus Sonic. The later matches, he tried keeping the pressure on and taking more risks, and he was rewarded. I guess, that's my main point. Zard is not going to win by being ultra "spacey" and trying to play it smart. He needs to just charge in. His moves are stronger than Sonic's, so he needs to make it messy.

The only exception is edgeguarding. Unless the Zard player is really confident, keeping it safe is probably the better option. There were a couple times in the set that Metroid didn't do a sweetspot d tilt when Sethlon didn't sweetspot his up b. That would have been an easy Zard kill. Zard's sweetspot d tilt is easily one of the best d tilts for edguarding in the game because of the angle it sends the opponent at, and for how far away Zard can be from the ledge when he does it.

And I would argue that trades still matter a lot. I don't see how they can be invalidated from the matchup. Even top players like Sethlon and Metroid will still encounter plenty of messy trades (More than likely though, Zard's moves will just win). Sonic has to win by hitting the opponent. But what if the opponent throws out a move right when the Sonic comes in? Sonic's move loses. And if it doesn't and they trade, then Sonic's move still loses because Charizard is much stronger. I know it isn't a strategy a Zard player can rely on (It won't win them matches), but what it will do is keep building up percentage when the Sonic player has the momentum. Along with that, a key trade can shift momentum and once that happens, and Zard takes the risk to capitalize, Zard will normally profit big time.

Zard vs Sonic strategy breakdown:

1. Keep the pressure on. Focus on offense. Take risks.
2. Exception is edguarding. Keep it simple. Wall him out with aerials if he is recovering high and send him to his doom with d tilts if he misses a sweetspot.
3. When the momentum is in Sonic's favor, still try to keep the pressure on. Make it messy. Build percentage as quickly as you can. Trades are your friends. Your moves are stronger than his.

Sonic vs Zard strategy breakdown:
1. Down b.
2. ????
3. Profit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I watched the video too. The important thing to remember is that Zard's moves beat Sonic's most of the time. So as long as the Zard's timing is tight, getting the Sonic player to run into his moves shouldn't be a huge problem. However, the thing I found most interesting is that the matches turned in Metroid's favor once he started being more aggressive. The first couple matches he tried to win the neutral game, which Zard doesn't want to even attempt to do versus Sonic. The later matches, he tried keeping the pressure on and taking more risks, and he was rewarded. I guess, that's my main point. Zard is not going to win by being ultra "spacey" and trying to play it smart. He needs to just charge in. His moves are stronger than Sonic's, so he needs to make it messy.

The only exception is edgeguarding. Unless the Zard player is really confident, keeping it safe is probably the better option. There were a couple times in the set that Metroid didn't do a sweetspot d tilt when Sethlon didn't sweetspot his up b. That would have been an easy Zard kill. Zard's sweetspot d tilt is easily one of the best d tilts for edguarding in the game because of the angle it sends the opponent at, and for how far away Zard can be from the ledge when he does it.

And I would argue that trades still matter a lot. I don't see how they can be invalidated from the matchup. Even top players like Sethlon and Metroid will still encounter plenty of messy trades (More than likely though, Zard's moves will just win). Sonic has to win by hitting the opponent. But what if the opponent throws out a move right when the Sonic comes in? Sonic's move loses. And if it doesn't and they trade, then Sonic's move still loses because Charizard is much stronger. I know it isn't a strategy a Zard player can rely on (It won't win them matches), but what it will do is keep building up percentage when the Sonic player has the momentum. Along with that, a key trade can shift momentum and once that happens, and Zard takes the risk to capitalize, Zard will normally profit big time.

Zard vs Sonic strategy breakdown:

1. Keep the pressure on. Focus on offense. Take risks.
2. Exception is edguarding. Keep it simple. Wall him out with aerials if he is recovering high and send him to his doom with d tilts if he misses a sweetspot.
3. When the momentum is in Sonic's favor, still try to keep the pressure on. Make it messy. Build percentage as quickly as you can. Trades are your friends. Your moves are stronger than his.

Sonic vs Zard strategy breakdown:
1. Down b.
2. ????
3. Profit.

What do you mean, "as long as his timing is tight?" Unless Charizard is especially proactive about threatening Sonic (and thus putting himself at great risk of getting caught by dashdance -> grab or Down-B stuff), Sonic can simply avoid an attack and go in with comparatively tiny risk to himself. Charizard doesn't have the luxury of, say, Peach, who can float cancel an aerial or AGT in order to poke without any significant endlag. When Charizard misses a Jab or N-Air, his endlag is noticeably longer than those examples (which would be relatively safe against most other characters, but that doesn't matter against Sonic).

Getting Sonic to run into those moves is often the very definition of "hard read," which is the problem with the matchup (and most matchups involving Sonic). You say that you can just throw out an attack when Sonic is going in, but as he can cancel "going" in with a wavedash or with an incredibly efficient dashdance (or a combination of the two!), as well as other tools that make him quite unpredictable when used correctly (Neutral-B, Frame 2 cancelable Dash Attack), you only know when he's going in if the Sonic isn't attempting to bait a move with his plethora of options (which your strategy breakdown doesn't take into account at all). Being aggressive as Charizard is probably his best strategy here because making hard reads is generally more effective when you try to be unpredictable, but it doesn't change the fact that you have to read minds in order to land trades in the first place.

Your mention of D-Tilt edgeguarding is still reliant on the Sonic player messing up, too. Overall, being aggressive doesn't suddenly mean that Sonic runs out of options to bait you with or prey on your endlag with. Unless it's a tiny stage (which would be banned by Sonic in a realistic tournament setting), Sonic's great control of the neutral position and Charizard's relative inability to deter Sonic's general strategy prevents Charizard from being a reliable winner outside of significantly outplaying him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I watched the video too and still think it came down to stage choice and player reading more than characters in the first place.

 

[metroid1117]

It's been quite a while since I used Charizard in tournament (although I now plan to use switch between Ike and Charizard next time), but if Sonic is playing as safe and optimally as possible, I highly doubt it's in Charizard's favor. Yes, I did beat Sethlon in that set, but we both agree that it's because Sethlon messed up his spacing. Even when Charizard's pressuring Sonic by approaching, it's not hard for Sonic to run away and force Charizard to extend outside his dash-dance range. At that point, any character must either commit to wavedashing backward or attacking, since simply turning around is easily punished. It's not hard for Sonic to rush down Charizard while baiting out jab or DTilt, and it's not hard for Sonic to out-space Charizard's attacks once Charizard gets outside his dash-dance range. Even though he lost, I still think Sethlon is better than I am and only lost, again, because he messed up his spacing and got punished for it.

Just as a side note, Charizard NEVER wants to be in the air in this match-up. Sonic is fast enough to punish almost anything on the way back to the ground (even NAir) if he/she spaces properly and he's more mobile on the ground than in the air.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The better player tends to be the one that messes up their spacing and gets punished less often

 

[ELI-mination]

Idk about you guys but I just try attacking my opponent until they die offstage
Idk about this whole spacing thing you're talking about

 

[ItalianStallion]

I'm still thinking it's in Charizard's favor, but again, I have not played a real Sonic main yet. My opinion might change if I did. I will also say we can't say that if a Sonic player doesn't mess up he will win and say that that's a legitimate point when talking about the matchup. Players mess up all the time, even the great players. Especially when they are playing characters with a lot of button pressing like Sonic and Fox. Sethlon lost because he messed up his spacing with Sonic? Well, that's fine, but that doesn't mean he is ever going to not mess up his spacing in a match using Sonic considering that spacing with Sonic requires more finger movements and therefore more chances of messing up.

For example, a Fox that never suicides or messes up tech and spacing will most likely beat a lot of people, but you're not going to find a Fox that does that. It's part of the character's balance to be hard to use. It is a lot easier to space with Charizard and to use Zard's tech, so it's expected that Zard players will mess up less often. Zard is better than Sonic and Fox in this category. That comes into play in the matchup.

I feel what is being argued is that theoretically Sonic will beat Zard close to 100% of the time, which I can agree with, but that is not going to happen in real life unless the player is impeccable at this game, which isn't possible. A player is never going to be perfect at spacing, especially when using a character like Sonic who requires more control than using a character like Charizard. That has to factor into the matchup, and when it does, I find the matchup to be in Zard's favor. I can possibly see myself agreeing at 50-50 in the future, but as I said, I haven't played any Sonic mains yet and so far haven't had trouble in the matchup.

 

[Vashimus]

This is the most productive conversation I've seen in this thread since its inception. We should talk about match-ups more often.

 

[Professor Pro]

Posting videos of MU's > Talking about MU's

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waecagfyJ7M

Mario/Sonic MU is 55/45 in Sonic's favor. That being said, there are no dedicated mario mains on the national level that I know of (gimpyfish pls do it) and yeah wizzrobe is too good.

 

[Paradoxium]

I disagree, Mario's air moves are quick, and break spindash. Fireballs also break spin dash and annoy sonic while he's grounded. I'm not sure how effective his cape is but it might shut down sonics recovery, not sure though. Anyways I feel it is 50/50 or greater in Mario's favor.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Posting videos of MU's > Talking about MU's

The problem is there isn't a plethora of videos out there.

I would agree Mario beats Sonic. I may be wrong but I believe Mario's dair will take Sonic out of almost any approach he has, and as a bonus is a pretty safe move for Mario to use.

 

[Beautiful Death]

Regardless, it's not matchups that people are really concerned with in terms of Sonic--It's the fact that he never actually has to play Smash Brothers.

There we go!

Project M Sonic actually reminds me of Scorpion from Injustice. The way I was feeling about Sonic was that it's not about whether or not he is the best character or even broken. Maybe he is or maybe he isn't. Maybe he isn't even top tier. It's that he belongs in a different game. It's like having Magneto in Street Fighter but giving him only 200 HP to balance out his movement or something dumb like that. And that's how Tom Brady felt about Scorpion in Injustice. Scorpion doesn't have to play Injustice because his teleport breaks the rules of the game. Sonic is doing Marvel in a smash game.

 

[Vashimus]

It's exacerbated by the fact that Scorpion has absolutely no business being in Injustice, since nobody wanted his ass. We get it Netherrealm. You made MK9 (which is a much better game anyway). But if people wanted to play MK characters versus DC characters, there's already a game for that. But I digress.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I disagree, Mario's air moves are quick, and break spindash. Fireballs also break spin dash and annoy sonic while he's grounded. I'm not sure how effective his cape is but it might shut down sonics recovery, not sure though. Anyways I feel it is 50/50 or greater in Mario's favor.

As a mario main, cape is meh against sonic. If you cape his spindash, he'll respond by just doing an up-b, which is still cape-able, but sonic can also airdoge out of his up b or other shenanigans. I feel like theoretically it's 5050 or greater, but there are no results to back it up, that is the only high level MU I know/remember and mario obviously lost.
Which brings the question up, where on a tier list is mario? He has a decent MU against sonic and also has counters to spacies, but no real tournament success.

 

[KayB]

I disagree, Mario's air moves are quick, and break spindash. Fireballs also break spin dash and annoy sonic while he's grounded. I'm not sure how effective his cape is but it might shut down sonics recovery, not sure though. Anyways I feel it is 50/50 or greater in Mario's favor.

I would agree Mario beats Sonic. I may be wrong but I believe Mario's dair will take Sonic out of almost any approach he has, and as a bonus is a pretty safe move for Mario to use.

Eh, true, but unless its Dracula's Castle, Mario generally has a linear recovery and limited ways to approach off-stage. All Sonic has to do is take Mario off-stage and its over if the Sonic player has a good idea on how to edgeguard. On the flipside, thanks to Sonic's recovery options, Mario has a little bit of a difficult time edgeguarding, and an attempted gimp generally ends up in an unfavorable position. I'd say its in Sonic's favor.

Which brings the question up, where on a tier list is mario? He has a decent MU against sonic and also has counters to spacies, but no real tournament success.

He's somewhere between mid to high tier, probably closer to high, but I don't really have much to prove this. If I remember correctly, I think it was Hungrybox that counterpicked Wizz's Sonic with Mario. He didn't win too much, but he did better than his Puff.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Sonic can upb out of a cape after being caped out of an upb. Even after using all his jumps, his upb resets after being caped. So cape is basically useless against sonic.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Sonic can upb out of a cape after being caped out of an upb. Even after using all his jumps, his upb resets after being caped. So cape is basically useless against sonic.

Really? That doesn't sound right...
I'm going to have to test that out.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The only thing I can think about Mario Sonic is how Mario can literally never do nair or Sonic gets free hits and easy momentum from it.

I don't like the claim of precision of matchup numbers to 55:45 either, since I'd just as easily say the matchup is 55:45 in Sonic's favour.

+/-0 out of 2 matchup; the game is balanced enough that +2 and -2 are enough of extremes to describe how hard matchups can get

ie, Sheik Ness +2/-2?

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, please. The arbitrary increments of 5 aren't doing anybody any favors.

 

[trash?]

Hello there what's happening he-- no wait it's july now aaaaagh OKAY ONE SEC I gotta properly set up this tier list thing.
(read: I have to fiddle with google docs for an hour to get any notable data) (I really need a more automated way to do this at some point)

 

[trash?]

1) Sonic 5.72916666666667 (+3)
2) Falco 5.70833333333333 (=)
2) (tied) Fox 5.70833333333333 (-1)
4) Sheik 5.27083333333333 (-1)
5) Marth 4.875 (+1)
6) Mario 4.8125 (+1)
7) Peach 4.75 (-2)
8) Pit 4.6875 (+1)
9) Wolf 4.58333333333333 (-1)
10) Jigglypuff 4.4375 (+3)
11) Ike 4.10416666666667 (+6)
11) (tied) Snake 4.10416666666667 (+4)
13) Bowser 4.0625 (-3)
14) Diddy Kong 4 (-3)
15) Lucario 3.97916666666667 (+3)
16) Captain Falcon 3.9375 (-2)
17) Donkey Kong 3.89583333333333 (-1)
18) Wario 3.77083333333333 (-6)
19) Charizard 3.6875 (+1)
20) Ganondorf 3.625 (+1)
21) Lucas 3.5625 (+2)
22) Zero Suit Samus 3.47916666666667 (+3)
23) ROB 3.4375 (+3)
24) Link 3.4375 (-5)
25) Zelda 3.25 (-3)
26) Toon Link 3.22916666666667 (-2)
26) (tied) Pikachu 3.22916666666667 (+1)
28) Luigi 3.10416666666667 (+2)
29) Ivysaur 2.91666666666667 (-1)
30) Ness 2.83333333333333 (=)
31) Mr. Game & Watch 2.66666666666667 (=)
32) King Dedede 2.35416666666667 (=)
33) Squirtle 2.14583333333333 (=)

Taken from 48 strangers, of which you can view all of their responses here
Also here's the last one from april

A bit surprised that people think sonic is worth going over spacies, since there's basically a single person with success using him. Also how did wario get that low on the list, dang.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

1) Sonic 5.72916666666667 (+3)
2) Falco 5.70833333333333 (=)
2) (tied) Fox 5.70833333333333 (-1)
4) Sheik 5.27083333333333 (-1)
5) Marth 4.875 (+1)
6) Mario 4.8125 (+1)
7) Peach 4.75 (-2)
8) Pit 4.6875 (+1)
9) Wolf 4.58333333333333 (-1)
10) Jigglypuff 4.4375 (+3)
11) Ike 4.10416666666667 (+6)
11) (tied) Snake 4.10416666666667 (+4)
13) Bowser 4.0625 (-3)
14) Diddy Kong 4 (-3)
15) Lucario 3.97916666666667 (+3)
16) Captain Falcon 3.9375 (-2)
17) Donkey Kong 3.89583333333333 (-1)
18) Wario 3.77083333333333 (-6)
19) Charizard 3.6875 (+1)
20) Ganondorf 3.625 (+1)
21) Lucas 3.5625 (+2)
22) Zero Suit Samus 3.47916666666667 (+3)
23) ROB 3.4375 (+3)
24) Link 3.4375 (-5)
25) Zelda 3.25 (-3)
26) Toon Link 3.22916666666667 (-2)
26) (tied) Pikachu 3.22916666666667 (+1)
28) Luigi 3.10416666666667 (+2)
29) Ivysaur 2.91666666666667 (-1)
30) Ness 2.83333333333333 (=)
31) Mr. Game & Watch 2.66666666666667 (=)
32) King Dedede 2.35416666666667 (=)
33) Squirtle 2.14583333333333 (=)

Taken from 48 strangers, of which you can view all of their responses here
Also here's the last one from april

A bit surprised that people think sonic is worth going over spacies, since there's basically a single person with success using him. Also how did wario get that low on the list, dang.

cuz if wizzrobe can do it, that means it's possible. It might be incredibly hard to do, but it's possible. But it's somewhat reassuring that sonic isn't as borked/easy to use as metaknight was, and he's not nearly as op as a good fox was.

 

[Bryonato]

I would agree that Ness-Sheik is +2/-2. She has better stage control, better platform options, guaranteed followups out of dthrow, and amazing gimping capability on us with needles.. Ness just sits at a really good weight for Sheik to combo, too.

I mean even Daz beat Sin's Ness with Sheik so that has to say something right?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

cuz if wizzrobe can do it, that means it's possible. It might be incredibly hard to do, but it's possible. But it's somewhat reassuring that sonic isn't as borked/easy to use as metaknight was, and he's not nearly as op as a good fox was.

The first tier list suggested that Snake was the best character in the game and that Meta Knight had trouble killing. People still have a lot to learn before we can conclude that Sonic isn't as dominant/overcentralizing as Meta Knight.

 

[Oro?!]

22) Zero Suit Samus 3.47916666666667 (+3)