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Tier List Speculation

MLGF

Smash Lord
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Honestly, 3.0 was painfully frustrating because it rewarded really bad and campy play that wasn't fun to watch at all once people learned the crazy exploits on some characters.

Crazy brokeness can only be fun for so long, it got old. 3.5 feels fundamentally better.

Although, I hope 3.6 adds a few buffs to some of the less viable characters.
 
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O ciN

Smash Rookie
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Honestly, 3.0 was painfully frustrating because it rewarded really bad and campy play that wasn't fun to watch at all.

Crazy brokeness can only be fun for so long, it got old. 3.5 feels fundamentally better.

Although, I hope 3.6 adds a few buffs to some of the less viable characters.
I think this is what FreeGamer meant when he said happy medium
 

Narpas_sword

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the problem with 3.0 wasnt that the characters were really good, it's that they were really good, for free.

3.5 characters are still really good. you just have to understand your options better instead of throwing out your characters free move.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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I think we can all agree, other than mewtwo, pit, and sonic. 3.02 was more fun than 3.5
 

O ciN

Smash Rookie
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youre opinions are wrong
Your* spelling is wrong, silly Ripple.
Like your grammar?
Aside from being grammar nazis and firing shots at Ripple let's get back to the conversation shall we? It's on me too but oh well.

Topic change: What would you guys like to see done to Ganondorf in the upcoming patches? Any balancing issues that need addressing or anything? Let the discussion begin!
 

.alizarin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
97
i don't think ganon's dthrow is particularly healthy design, but nobody i know seems to care just because it's on ganon
 

Foo

Smash Lord
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I have an idea... What would you guys think of having a special that did literally nothing? No hitbox, no float, almost no startup or endlag, no protection... nothing.

I would love to have this instead of zss blaster it would be so fun and so awesome and jank I need this on a character pls pmdt make it happen. (it'd probably be super OP, but idc)
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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Feb 12, 2006
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Ganon Dthrow is sorta nerfed from Melee and it's attached to a char that has to work for grabs, especially raw grabs in neutral. Almost impossible if you don't link it from Dair, Nair, Side B tech reads, etc

You can choose certain DI paths to manipulate which "free" response he chooses for, like say a non-momentum aerial, then DI that follow up so that he doesn't get anything further. At low % at least, if your character doesn't get CG'd, you can just eat the hit and avoid 95% of real follow ups or genuine pressure. Cause Ganon can't Uair you, then chase you with Fox/Sheik/Falcon speed and smack you again etc

His other throws kinda suck, sans Uthrow on FF's, and if you want to keep Mario Dthrow or similar throws in then I see no reason to change Ganon's much further. He has more pressing balance and design concerns, both for him and his opponents, than Dthrow
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
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Ganon Dthrow is fine sorta
Im gonna guess its because the bicep-curl grab limits it's true potential

Edit: that akward moment when in the time you read + post new posts pop up lol
 
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.alizarin

Smash Apprentice
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97
getting nerfed from melee isn't relevant, and i don't think any throws should have free followups, and definitely not a free cg. i don't particularly care who has an option like that. it's lazy design. whether or not ganon has more pressing issues isn't relevant to this one, and i don't see the point of flat out ignoring smaller problems just because bigger problems exist. sounds nonsensical to me.

also i don't recall ever advocating for mario's dthrow, but as long as we're putting words into my mouth

rob's weight and floatiness is totally fine, 3.02 recoveries and neutrals weren't stupid, fox is underpowered and should be given 8 jumps, and we should all play on temple with items set to high
 
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Star ☆

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I think most characters are absolutely fine where they are. It's only really the bottom 5 and the top 5 that need small buffs/nerfs respectively.
 

JOE!

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I think most characters are absolutely fine where they are. It's only really the bottom 5 and the top 5 that need small buffs/nerfs respectively.
Pretty much this honestly.

In a game with 40+ characters, the fact that as a whole only a handful are mentioned as overly good/bad with the rest being in a big ol' heap of "just right" is a damn fine job by the PMDT.


On a side note seeing as this is a wider group, I may as well get y'all opinions:

||| -2 |||


||| -1 |||


||| -- |||


||| +1 |||


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This is the current Charizard MU spread after a few light discussions. Where do you guys feel your characters stand vs the lizard?
 
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Star ☆

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Pretty much this honestly.

In a game with 40+ characters, the fact that as a whole only a handful are mentioned as overly good/bad with the rest beign in a big ol' heap of "just right" is a damn fine job by the PMDT
Yeah 3.5 balancing did a good job. And @Strong Bad himself said that 3.6 will only be a small, concise list of changes so lets hope that it's just minor balancing for the two ends of the cast. I just hope that new characters in 4.0 (or whatever version they debut in) won't throw all this hard work balancing down the toilet.
 
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JOE!

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Yeah 3.5 balancing did a good job. And @Strong Bad himself said that 3.6 will only be a small, concise list of changes so lets hope that it's just minor balancing for the two ends of the cast.
Pretty much the philosophy of 3.5 was truly "design" based rather than Nerf/Buff in particular. From here they now have hopefully the "core" of every character that they can then work from with little buffs/nerfs/tweaks while retaining what makes X character X character intact.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
also i don't recall ever advocating for mario's dthrow, but as long as we're putting words into my mouth
Should have been rephrased. Was not aimed at you, more like the general thought "People seem alright with Link Dthrow, Mario Dthrow, Ike Uthrow etc so changing Ganon's Dthrow doesn't seem that pressing". Could have been "if people seem fine with those throws" rather than "if you seem fine with it". I Worded it poorly, I wouldn't assume that someone who wants Ganon Dthrow changed would be fine with similar throws. My b for not articulating that very well.


If you want throws to not have follow ups, that's a drastic change to a lot of Uthrows and Dthrows. The implications would be huge, and counter balancing those changes would be rough. What do we give Marth to keep up with Spacies if he can't Uthrow CG or free hit them? Peach gets what? Do you make tech rolls all really bad and just ask people to tech chase instead of CG or freely convert off throws? I dunno if you can cleanly give chars better attributes then to make up for changes like that. We can maybe try to implement a Smash 4 style limit on CG's, but people would probably have ways of getting around that anyways like Utilting or Uair into regrab.
 
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Star ☆

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Every character has something that makes them super stupid in PM. Or at least most of the characters.
I heavily disagree. This was clear in 3.0 with things like Sonic Spindash, Mario Fireballs, Mewtwo Teleport, Diddy's Bananas etc. Now, in the 3.5 environment, I can only count overcentralising and "stupid" mechanics for characters on one hand.
On a side note seeing as this is a wider group, I may as well get y'all opinions:

||| -2 |||


||| -1 |||


||| -- |||


||| +1 |||


|||+2 |||


This is the current Charizard MU spread after a few light discussions. Where do you guys feel your characters stand vs the lizard?
I'm interested to hear what the reasoning for Sonic having an unfavourable matchup with Zard is. From the Zards that I've played I've always found the matchup to be fairly equal. Simply because of how easy it is to combo and spike Zard with dair, especially out of an upthrow. I've posted my matchup spread for Sonic as well;
Here is my matchup spread, ask me any questions if you are interested in my thoughts. As with Solharath's list, an asterisk* to the right denotes that the matchup is heavily stage dependent.
70:30
:popo:

60:40
:dedede::dk2:*:ganondorf:*:pit::olimar:

55:45
:falcon:*:jigglypuff::snake:*:ness2::charizard::lucario::bowser2::warioc::squirtle::zerosuitsamus:

50:50
:diddy::wolf::ivysaur::ike::toonlink::link2::lucas::mario2::metaknight::marth::mewtwopm::roypm::sheik::pikachu2::rob:

45:55
:falco:
*:fox::zelda:*

40:60
:luigi2::yoshi2::peach::samus2:*:kirby2::gw:
Some of these I'm not 100% sure on but for the most part I'm very confident in this list. Let me know what you think. Just reading over this list only solidifies my belief that Ike is a fantastic secondary for Sonic because he performs well against some of Sonic's more struggling matchups. You should all consider picking him up. :)
I only believe Sonic sllliiigghhtty beats Zard.
 
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NyTR0

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Idk. I feel like a lot of characters have at least one thing that makes them stupid. This is both a good and a bad thing cause this means there's uniqueness in characters. Those "stupid" things are what makes them the character they are and sadly changing those things would make people go crazy cause in their eyes it would be a "woah you took it too far" kind of thing. I do believe there are some things that characters have that are just too much but would it be right to change it just for the good of others? Nah. That's the way I see it. People should be able to enjoy their characters. No matter what nerfs or buffs anyone gets there's no way around certain things.
 

.alizarin

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 10, 2014
Messages
97
If you want throws to not have follow ups, that's a drastic change to a lot of Uthrows and Dthrows. The implications would be huge, and counter balancing those changes would be rough. What do we give Marth to keep up with Spacies if he can't Uthrow CG or free hit them? Peach gets what? Do you make tech rolls all really bad and just ask people to tech chase instead of CG or freely convert off throws? I dunno if you can cleanly give chars better attributes then to make up for changes like that. We can maybe try to implement a Smash 4 style limit on CG's, but people would probably have ways of getting around that anyways like Utilting or Uair into regrab.
i should've been a bit more clear

i don't want braindead followups off of throws. ganon's followups off his dthrow are braindead, so don't want them here. there is some leeway here, obv. i don't know enough about the intricacies regarding weight and fallspeed and whatnot, but i'm not entirely sure it's possible to keep some free followups from showing up in certain matchups without mak, but it's best if that kind of stuff is minimal. ganon's dthrow, afaik, has a followup on every character, which i think is uncool.

to take one example, marth vs spacies isn't nearly as braindead as ganon's, and i would argue that it's not braindead at all. at certain percents, you actually have to pivot grab and whatnot to get it to work, at others, utilt regrab is more optimal and reliable than just going for the regrab, etc. you gotta work for it and think. m2k wouldn't be as known for his consistency with 0-deaths if everyone could do it without a second thought. afaik, ganon's dthrow doesn't have any nuances like that besides whether or not you go for the regrab on certain characters.
 
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Nausicaa

Smash Lord
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Mar 7, 2013
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Topic change: What would you guys like to see done to Ganondorf in the upcoming patches? Any balancing issues that need addressing or anything? Let the discussion begin!
Worst question ever.

What do you all like or not like about Ganondorf in this current patch? Any ways of playing around any issues he has to deal with in the game? Let the discussion begin!

Fixed


Edit: Hint, that's where actual thorough discussion will come from regarding what's 'needed in upcoming patches' if it comes from anywhere.
 
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Foo

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I think that the problem with ganon's dthrow is that it is a level above stuff like link and mario. Mario can't chaingrab nearly as well as ganon and link can't chaingrab at all without using jab, but that can be SDI' out of.

Ganon can just chaingrab manhy characters basically to death. I'm fine with it being really really really friggin goodlike link's or mario's, but I think it's a level beyond those two and needs to be toned down a it. Other than that, I think ganon nair's autocancel window may need to be looked. To compensate to nerfs on that, since I don't think ganon is OP, it'd be good to see something better out of hisforward ad back throws. Maybe giving them lower angles and/or more knockback to set up better edgeguards would be cool. Main thing I'd like to see is a buff to the iasa on his float and his cape could probably use a buff as well. (not because these options are bad, but because they are really cool and if they weren't somewhat underwhelming, could make ganon really really interesting to play. )
 

DrinkingFood

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Ganon's dthrow is fine, I don't think it's wrong for characters to have tools that clearly outshine others, especially when initiating them successfully is so difficult. Ganon's ability to land grabs is pretty bad, he can't tech chase well for grabs, can't combo into grabs really except with specific moves on specific weight groups (like aerial side-b on floaties, low percent dair on mid fallers, mid percent dair on FFers). And usually when he can combo into it isn't the same percent it CGs, so really it just serves to add extra damage before setting up for a finisher. Getting grabbed at the percent his dthrow CGs is really difficult unless the ganon is way better than you, in which case you have really have no room to complain about dthrow when you are probably making dozens of other mistakes
 

TheGravyTrain

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The issue is Ganondorf is a rather simple character. Marth is incredibly deep with different spacing options. Ganondorf is supposed to be simpler and more straight forward, relying on reads and tricks to win. It would take a lot of reworking to make every character like a Marth in terms of combo depth.

The root of these issues (free throw follow up's, heavies, melee bias, rng) is we are used to it working like that. At the end of the day, simple characters like Dorf existed in Melee and likely will continue to be designed that way in PM. Same with heavies in general, throw followups, and rng. Its the way its always been, so radical ideas and changes are extremely unlikely, especially this late in the game. I think it is something that needs to be accepted: that we wont really be able to change everything because we are to accustomed to it. Better to move on and work with what we can change without massive backlash.
 

.alizarin

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 10, 2014
Messages
97
a tool that outshines others isn't the problem. i'm okay with that as long as there's some thought involved in using the tool. the effort involved for ganon's dthrow is getting the grab, but i don't think it's okay for the ganon player to just have the luxury of not thinking after he gets it. there's a balance between difficulty to initiate vs. difficulty to execute, sure, but i don't think any move has a justification to be 100:0 on that ratio. sounds like poor design to me. what's wrong with 70:30 or 80:20? minimal effort during execution, but you still have to think about things, and in exchange, it can be easier to initiate. what's the problem
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Ganon does have to think about it, and react with great precision against some chars / DI / %. The perfect turn around, dash JC grab on Spacies for example: at least in Melee I know he had to be super crazy tight on execution to regrab Spacies at low % if they DI behind him. If you DI in front of him, you generally escape the CG earlier (some chars it's better to DI behind him at low % like Falcon, not sure if Ganon gets a regrab under 10%). It may give a free hit, but eating a free hit at 30-50% from Ganon probably isn't the end of the world (not every char can escape his clutches that early). Eating an Utilt/Uair/Tipper Fsmash from Marth after his Uthrow CG is "truly" over and not guaranteed, that's arguably worse for the other character to deal with cause Marth is better equipped to have the ability to keep converting or keep his edge after the initial freebie hit (on vulnerable CG chars at least).


On chars like Lucas, MK, Diddy, Roy, etc it seems pretty brain dead. I don't have much against that argument for that general grouping of chars, cause they are tasty weight and FF status for his Dthrow.


The problem with trying to make it 80:20 or 70:30, is that assuming the player is good enough, they can probably turn it back into 100:0 anyways. M2K or PP off of throws still generate amazing results despite what's needed from Marth. If you make it easier for Ganon to grab, but turn his reactions and executions towards Marth's direction, you might have an even worse scenario where the Ganon player deals with that change, and is then blessed with a better grab range or easier grab setups. That just leads to basically the same thing happening now, except you buffed how easy it is to land or initiate the grab. I dunno if that would really be an improvement.
 
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.alizarin

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
97
i concede the point that perhaps there's a degree of reaction involved on some characters, as i haven't exactly tested every single one, though the vast majority that i have make the dthrow seem braindead in my experience (i think my playgroup might be playing mostly from that ff/weight pool...). the group is fairly large to me, which i don't think there's any justification for. tone down that group, and i think that'd be fine.

also regarding player skill and execution and whatnot evening it back up to 100:0, i'd just like to clarify that i don't necessarily mean that the punish/optimal result is the same, just requiring higher input prowess or w/e, because then we get into a stupid discussion reminiscent of people trying to justify fox's lame attributes by just saying his tech requirements are rough. i'd rather pmdt tone down the entire punish (this doesn't necessarily only apply to ganon vs that specific ff/weight group, but in general for other characters as well) while making it more difficult to complete, which avoids the issue.
 
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Searing_Sorrow

Smash Journeyman
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May 19, 2014
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Pretty much this honestly.

In a game with 40+ characters, the fact that as a whole only a handful are mentioned as overly good/bad with the rest being in a big ol' heap of "just right" is a damn fine job by the PMDT.


On a side note seeing as this is a wider group, I may as well get y'all opinions:

||| -2 |||


||| -1 |||


||| -- |||


||| +1 |||


|||+2 |||


This is the current Charizard MU spread after a few light discussions. Where do you guys feel your characters stand vs the lizard?
In 3.5 diddy vs charizard feels pretty even. dk vs charizard may even be -2 for dk from what i have seen. Dk is the perfect weight for stairway to heaven combo. As far as a matchup chart goes, this is one of the most nonbiased I have seen in a while. Though how bad jiggs does may be skewed due to lack of representation.
 

DrinkingFood

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even besides precision, there's no such thing as a braindead character lol
if you don't have to think while playing to get results your opponent doesn't know the matchup or is just bad in general
a ganon has to be far from braindead to land a grab
 

JOE!

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I heavily disagree. This was clear in 3.0 with things like Sonic Spindash, Mario Fireballs, Mewtwo Teleport, Diddy's Bananas etc. Now, in the 3.5 environment, I can only count overcentralising and "stupid" mechanics for characters on one hand.

I'm interested to hear what the reasoning for Sonic having an unfavourable matchup with Zard is. From the Zards that I've played I've always found the matchup to be fairly equal. Simply because of how easy it is to combo and spike Zard with dair, especially out of an upthrow. I've posted my matchup spread for Sonic as well;

I only believe Sonic sllliiigghhtty beats Zard.
Its probably equal, but mainly in theory at least Zard is very quick on the ground (only behind Sanic, Falcon and Fox) while possessing huge range on his attacks to boot with many anti-airs, along with the ability to fly up to chase folks vertically even better than Sonic can with his spring. Its more bias on my end since I've beaten every sonic I've played lol, but given sonic's assets I'd probably agree its an even MU kinda like Sonic vs Marth in a sense.
 
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