Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

I want ZSS to have some sort of lingering hitbox so she can actually edge gguard certain characters without having to be super amazingly ****ing precise.

Pls? <3

Tired of losing to Wuff.

Yay jumping to conclusions! Can you even logic 101?

Tier Read Our Own Posts Speculation

@ Frost | Odds I see you lurking, pm me your goddamn bowser pac already

 

[Vixen]

Tier Read Our Own Posts Speculation

@ Frost | Odds I see you lurking, pm me your goddamn bowser pac already

All of ZSS's bad match ups, while mostly doable, are almost entirely bad match ups to begin with because she has no lingering hitboxes. (or no reliable escape vs pressure)

Try to be an obnoxious tool all you like, but it's true.

 

[941]

I believe the ICs footstool thing isn't an infinite because it can be DIed away. Not 100% sure though.

 

[PlateProp]

All of ZSS's bad match ups, while mostly doable, are almost entirely bad match ups to begin with because she has no lingering hitboxes. (or no reliable escape vs pressure)

Try to be an obnoxious tool all you like, but it's true.

Goddamn my sides are orbiting right now

You miss the point, if you got gud you wouldnt need lingering hitboxes. Plenty of characters can edge guard wolf/spacies without lingering hitboxes, ZSS is no exception.

in fact, calling any character brain dead in smash is kinda silly. no matter what character you play, di still exists, footsies still exist, matchups still exist. no character can turn the physics engine into marvel (inb4 lucario)

Super late reply, but @iPunchKidsz can make smash mahvel

 

[Ningildo]

Examples of such characters?

Not really siding with anyone here, just wondering what and how many characters fall under that category for you to make such a claim.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Anyone think we could buff bowser by giving him his melee size, so he'd be less susceptible to grabs?

 

[PlateProp]

Examples of such characters?

Not really siding with anyone here, just wondering what and how many characters fall under that category for you to make such a claim.

Ganon
Falcon (barring weak knee, but I would bet you're more likely to get hit out of that)
Sonic
ZSS (kek)
Olimar
Marth + Roy

you get the point

These characters all have moves that do not linger, but instead rely on good spacing ,timing or a combination of both, yet can be used to edgeguard wolf/spacies.

Edit: Another thing exclusive to tether characters is that on reel up no one else can grab ledge, effectively giving them a huge amount of time they're hogging the ledge in addtion to the normal invincibility frames

 

[FreeGamer]

Anyone think we could buff bowser by giving him his melee size, so he'd be less susceptible to grabs?

That's also a nerf to his range, though... :/

 

[Gawain the Knight]

I can't tell if I was being blatantly ignored as a result of earlier or this is a coincidence.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

That's also a nerf to his range, though... :/

Yeah but he would gain so much, and I know lose so much. Edit: I think the tradeoff would be worth it, but so late into design it is quite a drastic change.

 

[Nausicaa]

Need lingering hitboxes to deal with Fox... except Marth apparently.
LOL precision is terrible why would you ever want that in a game. Marth is no fun to play at all and should be changed. Nobody likes Marth. Not even his new-blood Roy friend.
No really though, this reminds me of the whole "Pit needs a bigger grab range and harder hitting Dtilt to compete" followed by the whole last-patch Pit, and how good he ended up (too-good, I wonder why...)
You weren't alone in the people adamant about Pit needing buffs (Vixen) but things like that littered throughout your posting history (that I've seen, I don't know otherwise/on the full scope though) makes me find things like 'ZSS needs something' silly, and when it comes from you, I notice a little bias (my bias) about you being the poster that makes it a little sillier to me.

The correlation between being good in-game and knowing what/why/how things work/are good, is never a parallel, so the credentials are pointless if you're trying to use those to back-up a statement. We have m2k as a fine example of how backwards it can be.

Counter-play regarding circumstantial weaknesses (things that could be avoided entirely with in-game play itself ESPECIALLY [like avoiding getting cornered]) are GOOD FOR THE GAME.

If someone is wishing their character had a single, specific, certain tool in their kit, because they think it would make them perfectly capable of dealing with a certain in-game PLAYER interaction better, then that character is perfectly suited for the game. Just the fact that it can be called out at all is impressive as a compliment to the balance team.

AKA, you (Vixen) hoping for that lingering hitbox and not getting it, is a good sign that she's in EXACTLY the perfect spot she should be in.

The opposite is also true.
If someone is complaining about ROB for every reason from him taking control of a stage and never getting combo'd, then something should be done.

When ROB players are asking for him to be a little harder to combo, because it would help him deal with that 'ONE THING' that's holding him back, then THAT is when ROB is in a good place.


So, what does ROB need? What's holding him back?

 

[BlackMamba]

Yay jumping to conclusions! Can you even logic 101?

Don't mind the troll, he enjoys complaining about his character while not allowing others to say anything negative about theirs For what it's worth I play ZSS on occasion and also noticed this issue. It's particularly odd since graphically her plasma attacks look like they linger but uh... They just kinda don't.

 

[PlateProp]

Don't mind the troll, he enjoys complaining about his character while not allowing others to say anything negative about theirs For what it's worth I play ZSS on occasion and also noticed this issue. It's particularly odd since graphically her plasma attacks look like they linger but uh... They just kinda don't.

>Gives legitimate examples of characters as to why needing lingering hitboxes isint needed, and go the extra mile and explain how tether reeling gives extra ledge hogging frames

Such a troll

Also have stated SEVERAL times that those are all jokes or sarcasm about squirtle.

 

[Ripple]

I wish I didn't have lingering hitboxes, then maybe I could beat any squirtle player

 

[PlateProp]

I wish I didn't have lingering hitboxes, then maybe I could beat any squirtle player

I still dont understand how you lose to Squirtle

 

[BlackMamba]

You could have provided those examples and that advice without being rude tho... Like, everything up until that reply to the guy who asked for examples was pretty sassy and unnecessary. (Btw I didn't say I thought edgeguarding Wolf made lingering hitboxes necessary, I just stated that I understood how Zss's lack of lingering hitboxes is frustrating at times. ) Basically, information /actual logic > comments that are all sass and no substance. Guess that's why I got irritated and replied.

Edit: I guess the other reasonn I felt compelled to respond is because I'm convinced that ZSS needs a bit of reworking on the next patch. Not necessarily more lingering hitboxes.... in my mind, I think it'd be both fair and more reasonable for hee her users and those facing her for her recovery to be nerfed in favor of more kill power

 

[PlateProp]

You could have provided those examples and that advice without being rude tho... Like, everything up until that reply to the guy who asked for examples was pretty sassy and unnecessary. (Btw I didn't say I thought edgeguarding Wolf made lingering hitboxes necessary, I just stated that I understood how Zss's lack of lingering hitboxes is frustrating at times. ) Basically, information /actual logic > comments that are all sass and no substance. Guess that's why I got irritated and replied.

Edit: I guess the other reasonn I felt compelled to respond is because I'm convinced that ZSS needs a bit of reworking on the next patch. Not necessarily more lingering hitboxes.... in my mind, I think it'd be both fair and more reasonable for hee her users and those facing her for her recovery to be nerfed in favor of more kill power

If a fish takes the bait, do you let it swim off with your pole?

I mean, I expect people to be somewhat smart and be able to pick up on subtext here. Getting good with non lingering hitboxes implies that you instead have to time your **** properly to edgeguard.

 

[Ripple]

I still dont understand how you lose to Squirtle

step 1: side-b
step 2: laugh as I panic and complain about no DI working
step 3: brag about how you got me to rage quit

 

[BlackMamba]

If a fish takes the bait, do you let it swim off with your pole?

I mean, I expect people to be somewhat smart and be able to pick up on subtext here. Getting good with non lingering hitboxes implies that you instead have to time your **** properly to edgeguard.

'Git gud' is something you tell a friend when you're messing with them, not something you say to give someone direction.... Because, well, it's NOT direction... It's telling you literally nothing and is just sort of rude/annoying. The tether point, someone might actually benefit from reading. Whatever though, I guess abrasiveness is kind of in your nature.

 

[Frost | Odds]

step 1: side-b
step 2: laugh as I panic and complain about no DI working
step 3: brag about how you got me to rage quit

Seriously, grabbing Squirtle out of side-b is one of the easiest things in this gamn dame

 

[InfinityCollision]

There are certainly changes I'd like to see for ZSS in the next patch (less buff/nerf-oriented, moreso subtle reworking), but lingering hitboxes really aren't something I've ever seen as a real need in her kit. Nor do I think they'd fit with her design.

 

[PlateProp]

step 1: side-b
step 2: laugh as I panic and complain about no DI working
step 3: brag about how you got me to rage quit

What odds said, especially with d3's range

Also you can shield withdraw and jump oos > bair to punish ez

'Git gud' is something you tell a friend when you're messing with them, not something you say to give someone direction.... Because, well, it's NOT direction... It's telling you literally nothing and is just sort of rude/annoying. The tether point, someone might actually benefit from reading. Whatever though, I guess abrasiveness is kind of in your nature.

Telling someone to git gud is not telling them nothing, it's telling them that they need to get better.

 

[Ripple]

Seriously, grabbing Squirtle out of side-b is one of the easiest things in this gamn dame

grabbing.....?squirtle.....?

Also you can shield withdraw and jump oos > bair to punish ez

nope, literally didn't work once against dirtboy. youre too small

 

[4tlas]

It has somehow been ~30 pages since I posted a tier list that got mostly ignored in favor of a cluster**** of **** slinging. I'd like to try and have some discussion that is actually about tier lists, so I'll post it again. Like literally copypasta, disclaimer and all.




Ok I'd like to post a tier list despite being some random scrub. I'm sure I'll get a ton of flak and be disregarded no matter what I say, and I am fully aware that I will be wrong somewhere.

The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order. The split between the upper and lower halves is arbitrary, I just did that so there were some guidelines. Honestly I think the last row of Upper and first row of Lower are pretty close.

And yes I know all the characters can do insane things, and everyones viable, and yada yada is mid-high. At the end of the day, someone has to be in the bottom half. Please don't disregard this post just because I put your character in the lower half. And just because you can prove to me that they are a good character does not mean the ones they are tied with aren't just as good! And of course I'm biased because I don't have experience with everything and even then it would be with regards to my character, so I can't see everything.

I think its sad that I feel compelled to add such a disclaimer because of all the **** I see people get for their lists. I don't have much confidence in this anyway, I just wanted to throw something up here so we could get back to talking about Tier Lists instead of design philosophy, buffs/nerfs, the theoretical skillcap of characters, or whatever. Please discuss.

Characters I'm willing to put in some kind of exact order







Remainder of Upper Half


Lower Half

 

[Frost | Odds]

Putting Pit above Bowser, Ganon, Zard, and Yoshi is weapons-grade insanity.

It's been interesting how by far the most disagreement seems to enter into play in the bottom and low tiers. Once the top tiers are (hopefully) knocked down a couple pegs in 3.6, hopefully there's a lot more meta development with these neglected characters and we can suss out in more detail where they actually stand.

 

[Foo]

All of ZSS's bad match ups, while mostly doable, are almost entirely bad match ups to begin with because she has no lingering hitboxes. (or no reliable escape vs pressure)

Try to be an obnoxious tool all you like, but it's true.

She doesn't really need lingering hitboxes. She has subpar tools to compensate, and that's fine. Divekick and blaster as well as well timed nair and bair (and dair against fast fallers) do the same thing, you just have to be more precise. Her edge guarding is weaker for not having lingering hitboxes for sure, but it's not like that's what makes her matchups unwinnable. Blaster and run of nair work well enough. Besides, what would you give her that lingers and what would you replace? All of her aerials are absolutely essential to her combo game and replacing any of them with a sex kick would both be boring and remove character.

She also doesn't need reliable escapes from pressure. Her whole stick is trickiness and mobility, so you play around not having outs to pressure by moving around the pressure rather than countering it directly. Bad oos play and mediocre corner play is just one of her weaknesses.

Now, what she DOES need is a good vertical launcher for true fast fallers. The only ones she has don't launch up enough to combo with, and THAT is what makes her matchups stupid. Lack of lingering hitboxes and pressure escapes are inherent character weaknesses that apply to every matchup period. However, her combo game is her greatest or second greatest strength (depending on playstyle) and it completely breaks her to have it be her greatest weakness against true fast fallers. When her combo game works, her matchup spread is completely fine. There are a few bad eggs here and there, but all doable matchups. However, when her combo game that she completely relies on for punishes doesn't work, the matchup quickly heads south.

Ideally, you want a characters strengths and weaknesses to exists throughout all matchups. Being bad against pressure, bad throw game etc. etc. are all things that will follow zss through every matchup. In the same vein, her mobility is a key strength that is with her in every matchup. However, her combo game isn't like that. It's insanely good against most of the cast, but true fast fallers totally negate it. This is how you make a really polarized character. Imagine if randomly there were matchups that made zss slower, or gave her less range. That'd be absurd, but it's very similar to how her fast faller matchups work.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Now, what she DOES need is a good vertical launcher for true fast fallers. The only ones she has don't launch up enough to combo with, and THAT is what makes her matchups stupid. Lack of lingering hitboxes and pressure escapes are inherent character weaknesses that apply to every matchup period. However, her combo game is her greatest or second greatest strength (depending on playstyle) and it completely breaks her to have it be her greatest weakness against true fast fallers. When her combo game works, her matchup spread is completely fine. There are a few bad eggs here and there, but all doable matchups. However, when her combo game that she completely relies on for punishes doesn't work, the matchup quickly heads south.

really you need a good throw for this, or at least a move that's safe-ish on shield and/or CC and/or whiff
because if your move doesn't encourage them to respond in a way that your other tools can take full advantage off (read: a stock per punish) then it's still fairly effective for them to just worry about the tool that's could combo them and take minor punishments otherwise. Like if your spacie-comboer is a tilt, and they run up shield, and you don't have a spacie-comboing grab, you either grab them and probably get a minimal punishment, or tilt and get punished yourself. UNLESS your move is safe on shield, most tilts aren't tho unless they're spaced

 

[Foo]

really you need a good throw for this, or at least a move that's safe-ish on shield and/or CC and/or whiff
because if your move doesn't encourage them to respond in a way that your other tools can take full advantage off (read: a stock per punish) then it's still fairly effective for them to just worry about the tool that's could combo them and take minor punishments otherwise. Like if your spacie-comboer is a tilt, and they run up shield, and you don't have a spacie-comboing grab, you either grab them and probably get a minimal punishment, or tilt and get punished yourself. UNLESS your move is safe on shield, most tilts aren't tho unless they're spaced

An anti spacy upthrow would be really nice, but I'm not sure how it could be implemented without it being busted against non-spacy characters. If it were possible somehow, that'd be perfect.

But anyway, the move I had in mind would replace her upsmash and would be kinda like the first hitbox of up-b, but wider and shorter (kinda like roy upsmash, but not multihit) with low lag. Not gonna try to explain the knockback right now because I'm really tired and I couldn't really tell what would work and what would be busted without testing it.

EDIT: You know what? **** it, just give her ganon dthrow AND a sex kick nair. ALso, her fair sucks make it an instant semi spike. Also, make every move comb into that fair at all %s and also hahahah it's sheik, get it?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It has somehow been ~30 pages since I posted a tier list that got mostly ignored in favor of a cluster**** of **** slinging. I'd like to try and have some discussion that is actually about tier lists, so I'll post it again. Like literally copypasta, disclaimer and all.




Ok I'd like to post a tier list despite being some random scrub. I'm sure I'll get a ton of flak and be disregarded no matter what I say, and I am fully aware that I will be wrong somewhere.

The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order. The split between the upper and lower halves is arbitrary, I just did that so there were some guidelines. Honestly I think the last row of Upper and first row of Lower are pretty close.

And yes I know all the characters can do insane things, and everyones viable, and yada yada is mid-high. At the end of the day, someone has to be in the bottom half. Please don't disregard this post just because I put your character in the lower half. And just because you can prove to me that they are a good character does not mean the ones they are tied with aren't just as good! And of course I'm biased because I don't have experience with everything and even then it would be with regards to my character, so I can't see everything.

I think its sad that I feel compelled to add such a disclaimer because of all the **** I see people get for their lists. I don't have much confidence in this anyway, I just wanted to throw something up here so we could get back to talking about Tier Lists instead of design philosophy, buffs/nerfs, the theoretical skillcap of characters, or whatever. Please discuss.

Characters I'm willing to put in some kind of exact order







Remainder of Upper Half


Lower Half

There is literally no ****ing point in talking about tier lists until people stop saying that the character with the most opportunities to escape combos is easy to combo and that has a recovery with good distance and some of the most versatile mix-ups in the game, has a poor recovery. And realize that giving said character all of his tools together with
TWO fast vertical (and thus non-stage-position-dependent) killing methods is ****ing stupid.

No, really, though, the stage position thing is huge. When you realize that a big part of the reason Roy is so much better than Marth is that he has vertical launchers -> position-independent finishers all over his combo tree things start to make a little too much sense. Aerial finishers are BIG in this game because that's prime disadvantage, opponent can't shield, move as well and regardless of how good their get-back-down tools are that is not a position they want to be in. Marth has Marth syndrome not just because his killing smash needs to be tippered, but because his only true aerial finisher depends on his opponent being in specific places in the air. Every other character with a spike doesn't have that limitation and hell, Lucas' bair comes with a non-spike kill hitbox attached.

Honestly Shine isn't more stupid than other things in this game. Even post-nerf Teleport and Hover on Mewtwo is RIDIC. ASC and QD are as nuts as Shine, as is a lot of Sheik's moveset. But when you require characters with good control over neutral to have to have positional advantage to secure kills (Marth, Sheik, Diddy) you get a character that isn't as dumb as Fox is. Even Wolf and Folac are okay because their kill moves require either reads or are not true-connect strings depending on the opponents' DI (and so conditioning and forcing bad DI or bad position becomes a skill here). And before Nausicaa jumps in with Wolf Flash fapping, yes that thing has varied distance and angle, but it also eats your jump, puts you into special fall and has non-trivial endlag on landing. That **** needs COMMITMENT and if a Wolf is able to make a Flash attempt safe via platform edge cancelling then I ****ing applaud them for their skill and ability to force that scenario.

Fox can both afford to throw his USmash out fairly willy-nilly, do it out of DD (guess what smashes you can't do out of a dash/run and then look at Wolf and Falco's primary kill smashes) and also confirm into it with Shine. SHINE. CAN. CONVERT. INTO. POSITION. INDEPENDENT. KILL MOVE. WITH. ****ING. SHINE.

Really, the more I think about this character the angrier I get

 

[4tlas]

Putting Pit above Bowser, Ganon, Zard, and Yoshi is weapons-grade insanity.

It's been interesting how by far the most disagreement seems to enter into play in the bottom and low tiers. Once the top tiers are (hopefully) knocked down a couple pegs in 3.6, hopefully there's a lot more meta development with these neglected characters and we can suss out in more detail where they actually stand.

I said in the post "The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order."


Edit: To the poster above me, this is part of my point. We are never going to get everyone to agree about what characters are stupid design or not, and regardless that is not the (theoretical) point of this thread. You don't have to debate with every idiot on the internet that continues to piss you off by defending Fox. Just ignore it and debate tier lists with other people.

 

[DMG]

Fox can both afford to throw his USmash out fairly willy-nilly, do it out of DD (guess what smashes you can't do out of a dash/run and then look at Wolf and Falco's primary kill smashes)

You can pivot a DD and get those smashes, or cancel a longer run animation by holding down to stop the run and then go for it. Technically if ur on point, people like Marth and Roy get real dumb out of pivot usage. Sure it's not as easy as dash + c-stick up for free killz, but you can bridge some of the disparity by implementing those well.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You can pivot a DD and get those smashes, or cancel a longer run animation by holding down to stop the run and then go for it. Technically if ur on point, people like Marth and Roy get real dumb out of pivot usage. Sure it's not as easy as dash + c-stick up for free killz, but you can bridge some of the disparity by implementing those well.

Slower than frame 7 though. Trickier to position, more startup due to requiring crouch/pivot (I'm not sure on the pivot, correct me) and slower than Fox USmash, right? Also not a straight neutral option out of DD, not as strong and not entirely position independent.

I said in the post "The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order."


Edit: To the poster above me, this is part of my point. We are never going to get everyone to agree about what characters are stupid design or not, and regardless that is not the (theoretical) point of this thread. You don't have to debate with every idiot on the internet that continues to piss you off by defending Fox. Just ignore it and debate tier lists with other people.

Don't tell me not to get mad at Fox.

 

[4tlas]

Don't tell me not to get mad at Fox.

I'm not! But you're telling me to not debate tier lists because you're too mad at Fox. This is the Tier List Speculation thread, right?

 

[DMG]

Slower than frame 7 though. Trickier to position, more startup due to requiring crouch/pivot (I'm not sure on the pivot, correct me) and slower than Fox USmash, right? Also not a straight neutral option out of DD, not as strong and not entirely position independent.
So basically no, their choices are not jesus christ walking on water. But they are apostles following his teachings.


Don't tell me not to get mad at Fox


U vlad? Angry enough to Season 1 Bush Mongler with Garen?

 

[steelguttey]

Olimar

the reason oli is so good at edgeguarding spacies is cus fsmash has such a good lingering hitbox lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think purple throw is relevant for edgeguarding spacies
shame RNG makes planning line-ups so awkward

****'s sake if it weren't for RNG I would seriously consider seconding that character, or maining him if ROB gets too brutally mauled with his next changes

speaking of which, I seriously hope PMDT don't just plug in Ike's fall speed stat and call it a day, not accounting for everything that changes isn't really fair to a character whose everything has always kinda relied on being able to put out a certain series of moves in a SH/being able to drift certain distances in a jump/FH aerials onto platforms/DJ aerials/SH autocancels/etc. By itself, it's a bigger change than a lot of 3.0->3.5 characters saw, not just speaking nerfs, but in how the character works in totality. Like m2 lost reach, but he still has reach, and he lost telehover but he still has teleport aerials to serve the same purpose (but less safely) and he still has hover uair carries, etc. ROB's fair strings and a lot of other things will just be completely different if you don't account for his new falling speed and apply new changes for that. Like I don't think it's a bad idea, and I understand and agree with the sentiment behind wanting to adjust his falling speed, but it saddens me to think how much goes to waste if care isn't taken.

 

[DMG]

You picked Olimar

Planning anything meaningful is probably not your strong suit

 

[steelguttey]

I think purple throw is relevant for edgeguarding spacies
shame RNG makes planning line-ups so awkward

****'s sake if it weren't for RNG I would seriously consider seconding that character, or maining him if ROB gets too brutally mauled with his next changes

purple side b basically replaces purple fsmash but all fsmashes body spacies

its just so hard to code and solve the issue of. set order is an awful idea, ridiculous stuff like taunting for the pikmin you want is worse but the system in place right now sucks even more

 

[trash?]

in hindsight olimar's RNG would be a lot more tolerable if he didn't rely on purples so hard. balance it in such a way that, no matter what combination you get, they're all similarly good but you just have to use them differently

I still think my idea where you hold down neutralb for different colors and purples just take like three or four seconds has potential, but then I can see why there's alleyways of abuse if you do that wrong

 

[steelguttey]

he relies on purples and blues i think a little to much. blue bthrow is just stupid and blue fair kills really fast but he has issues killing with other pikmin. thankfully yellows mean free stocks with fsmash on falcon or spacies