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melee zelda's playstyle is a side effect of having one of the worst movesets in all of smash bros. She has like 5 viable moves, and since grab is not one of them she just ends up doing the same exact thing patiently until it works. The only reason cosmo beats people is that he's INSANELY patient, probably one of the most patient players ever to pick up the game.
you have no idea what you're talking about with melee zelda. you're just wrong.
ness is doomed to suck because his movement and range are both bad. the only way he could not suck is to buff his moveset considerably to negotiate those flaws, and then he would be very obviously polarized and everyone would know it and talk about it. as is, his moveset is fine, which means he sucks.
Bowser is basically like:
Does your character have a **** ass grab game? Congrats! You can do well against Bowser!
Does your character have a poor grab game? Sorry... but Bowser dun care
I feel like that leads to him having a fairly polarized matchup spread. When characters like Sheik or Mario can capitalize a single grab into huge percentage they have a significantly easier time against Boozer than a character who can't. Against a character without a good grab game he can use his armor and fairly good pressure to work around their options. In those situations, Bowser's options/combos tend to hurt way more than what you can do to Bowser, so he wins out in the long run. Grab is the one thing that just doesn't care about everything he does well. So characters that can translate a grab into a high % combo have a clear advantage against Bowser.
your response implies a really warped view on how ness works, and on how this game works in general. not to be offensive, but when you're ignoring ness's dash grab just on the basis that 'its a dash grab' even though it's one of the best grab moves in the game period, that says a lot about the way you're thinking about pm. furthering this conversation isn't going to prove fruitful before you have a major paradigm shift. PM me if you want a better explanation, but I think your lack of experience is making it harder for you to correctly contextualize ness's moves as good
awestin would body most of the 'top level' players of this game, and given the amount of time he puts into this game (not all that much) i think how well he does against top level players like me and sethlon says a lot about how good ness is. He has plenty of tools to succeed and doesn't get cheesed by any characters except in a few matchups, so i don't see a need to change him.
Dude..jump cancelled grabs are always faster and better than dash grabs. Awestin might put a lot of time in that game, but you can't tell me what i observed isn't real. Any Ness who has intense matchup experience with Marth will tell you–––that GF set is rife with mistakes and unnecessary risks from Sethlon that were flashy and unnecessary and put him at risk of (and sometimes succesfully in the path of) death. That doesn't make Awestin bad... I would never claim something like that. But you are speaking from a place of ignorance when you are telling a Ness main that he has approach or combo options against much of the cast when I provided you substantive reasons why he doesn't. Maybe people on the smash forums will agree with me...but you have to remember. I'm not disagreeing that he has good tools...i really think he does have good tools. I just think his movement doesn't complement the tools he has.
Dude..jump cancelled grabs are always faster and better than dash grabs. Awestin might put a lot of time in that game, but you can't tell me what i observed isn't real. Any Ness who has intense matchup experience with Marth will tell you–––that GF set is rife with mistakes and unnecessary risks from Sethlon that were flashy and unnecessary and put him at risk of (and sometimes succesfully in the path of) death. That doesn't make Awestin bad... I would never claim something like that. But you are speaking from a place of ignorance when you are telling a Ness main that he has approach or combo options against much of the cast when I provided you substantive reasons why he doesn't. Maybe people on the smash forums will agree with me...but you have to remember. I'm not disagreeing that he has good tools...i really think he does have good tools. I just think his movement doesn't complement the tools he has.
but why would I not use a dash grab where i'm trading a single frame of startup and 10 frames of cooldown for about triple the range? especially considering his jc grab is so terrible, you really have no business jc grabbing ever. this ties back to what I said about your view of the game being influenced by a lack of real tournament experience: i can see why you would think ness is bad if you're trying to jc grab people. keep in mind that even though I don't always go ness in tournament, i've probably played him for just as much as you have, but against higher level players.
Wanted to stay out of this but...
Both grabs have decent use. When CGing people, you get more grabs doing JC grab, therefore you get more damage. In fact, if you dash grab on slight DI during a CG on a spacie, you will miss, simple as that. You should know your character's range, and be able to compensate so the range is nearly irrelevant.
Saying his JC grab is horrible and saying never use it is why others see Ness as bad.
It is true the dash grab has more utility, but the same can be said when comparing Falco's nair and fair. People don't use fair often, but its in good spots when they do.
Who actually actively switches between them to warrant the shiek/zelda separate character listing? Honestly, I don't see how just staying sheik the whole time is not better anyway.
Edit: Why is Donkey Kong so low? I don't see how someone like Pikachu can be above him.
I do, because it screws with opponents a lot if it can be pulled off effectively.
Someone like Pikachu? Meaning someone good?
PM Tier list should be like SF4's, where there's like 4/5 top, 4/5 bottom, and everyone else mid.
Dedede bottom.
What happened to Wolf, and why do people suddenly think he's good instead of bad? I didn't see any massive change in the 2.5 change, but he was getting a bad wrap mid-summer from basically everybody.
Did everyone just change their minds? If so, why/what took so long?
NOOBSATTIERTALKLAWL
What happened to Wolf, and why do people suddenly think he's good instead of bad? I didn't see any massive change in the 2.5 change, but he was getting a bad wrap mid-summer from basically everybody.
Did everyone just change their minds? If so, why/what took so long?
KB stacking meant he's doing proper spacie combos now, which is kind of a big deal because a lot of things that are different in wolf compared to fox/falco are designed in a way to play nicely with those combos.
Your state has a Melee Pikachu player that places in top 8. Of course Ness is capable of doing things, but so is every single other character in the game.
I put Jigglypuff high in my list because Bair, Fair, and Dair are all very silly moves. I had her in Very High rather than Top at first, but I thought "Man forget it YO HOMES TO BACK AIR."
Your state has a Melee Pikachu player that places in top 8. Of course Ness is capable of doing things, but so is every single other character in the game.
KB stacking meant he's doing proper spacie combos now, which is kind of a big deal because a lot of things that are different in wolf compared to fox/falco are designed in a way to play nicely with those combos.
There's no way this alone was enough for him to go from bad (by almost everyone's standards) to good (by almost everyone's standard)
You're basically directly implying that everyone has no idea what they're talking about, and are now in disagreement with what used to be their old opinions because they've taken the time to look properly.
Funny how that works.
The words of 'wait before judgement and pay attention' never do sink it.
Sonic sucks.
Wolf sucks.
Luigi sucks.
Jiggs is like Marth, she's still gonna do what she does, regardless of how many better characters with more tools come into the game.
Kink, I hope your YO HOMES TO BAIR 'ah-ha moment' translates to seeing this in others as well. AKA Marth ain't a worse Pit.
Falcon is still solid.
Dedede.... help? I still haven't had anyone even TRY to give me hope that he's ok as he is.
You know what else happens when you try to make everyone 'competition at a top level' aside from polarization?
All characters work well enough to compete in tournament finals. Regardless of polarization or not.
Jiggs in mid, Marth etc too, because they can do what they can do and that will never be taken away from them.
Smash isn't like a cut-and-dry fighter, there's more options in this game when you're GETTING HIT than there are in the neutral game of almost every other 'competitive' game.
Smash is stupid.
Tier list topic...
Right...
Dedede... wtf somebody insight me on how Dedede scares you and how Dedede can abuse you and avoid abuse.
Is he the worst in the game?
AKA bottom tier?
Because he's the ONLY one I can't figure it out for, after this much waiting and given attention.
And I've waited, and I've given him attention.
How could you not? He's huge!
Edit/PS: On the Wolf stacking helps combos thing.
The Wolf game-play hasn't changed much from then to now, it's simply become less Falco-like and less spammy. From Day1 2.1, Wolf is the only character who's development I've actually be disappointed in, as it's taking WAY to long even to reach BnB phases of it.
Knock-back stacking didn't do **** to help this. Just likely made people lazier and think stuff works better, so gave it a shot. Likely without even knowing it wasn't there to begin with, hence nothing has actually change in the game-play with it.
DeDeDe has easy combos and can punish easily too, but he himself suffers from being really open on whiff. Contender for worst on whiff if not the worst, but he reaps absurd rewards. He has a lot of arbitrarily bad/dumb mechanics; see: Minion Swallowing, F-smash's slowness with no shield breaker or anything close to the kind of setups that similarly slow characters like Ike or Bowser have. He isn't terrible though, and has a very strong off-stage presence coupled with one of the best B-throws in the game regarding utility. Combine that with his (admittedly nerfed) grab range, and he doesn't have the hardest time securing kills off little mistakes.
It isn't serious, except in that he's trying to say that people said Sonic sucked and he doesn't, they said Wolf sucked and again people changed their minds, and now they say Luigi sucks. Basically saying that people in this community judge characters far too quickly and call characters bad just to realize later that they were wrong, which of course in this case means he thinks Luigi is good despite everyone saying Luigi sucks.
It isn't serious, except in that he's trying to say that people said Sonic sucked and he doesn't, they said Wolf sucked and again people changed their minds, and now they say Luigi sucks. Basically saying that people in this community judge characters far too quickly and call characters bad just to realize later that they were wrong, which of course in this case means he thinks Luigi is good despite everyone saying Luigi sucks.
I don't remember any early claims that 2.5 Sonic sucked. As for Wolf, maybe people thought he was fairly average at first due to comparisons between him and Fox/Falco focusing on what they had and he lacked, but I don't remember anybody claiming that he sucked either.
Also, unlike Sonic and Wolf, who are newcomers, Luigi has history in Melee. Obviously he was buffed, but he plays pretty much the same as he did before. People are utilizing what they already know about him to formulate an opinion on him and what he is capable of doing.
*shrug* Unless I'm massively misreading Nausicaa's post he seems to think that at some point people thought Sonic and Wolf sucked. I personally have no idea as I'm fairly new to the smash scene. I do think Luigi is a bit underrated but I don't really have any basis for it other than gut feeling.
What character listed lower than other characters ISN'T underrated in this game? Every time any character is put under another one, it seems they're being "underrated."
It isn't serious, except in that he's trying to say that people said Sonic sucked and he doesn't, they said Wolf sucked and again people changed their minds, and now they say Luigi sucks. Basically saying that people in this community judge characters far too quickly and call characters bad just to realize later that they were wrong, which of course in this case means he thinks Luigi is good despite everyone saying Luigi sucks.
It's more like...
Theoretically, Lucas SHOULD work, and the PMBR hopefully knows that, hence they didn't really touch him for 2.5. No complaining from the community about silliness, yet what can prove he's good? There is NO evidence that he's 'good' through anything like results, so it's understandable, but to think even for a moment, after the release of Day 1 2.1, that he's not a very solid character, is actually just naivety. Do we actually need time to see how good he is? Do we actually need a solid player to show to the public masses to show what he's capable of? So far, he's barely anywhere special on most 'lists' people post, yet what do they have to go off of?
Basically what you said, people are hasty to make any judgement of anything.
The ONLY human error, is thinking we're without error. The MOMENT you think you know/see something clearly, when there's ANY sign (literally at all) that it might be a 'tiny' bit different than you 'know' now, that's the moment you've made an error in your 'judgement'
Kink (and others)
Underrated/Overrated don't mean anything, something has to be rated at all for that to make sense.
By a technicality, the majority of the characters in this game are closer to 100% UNrated, more than anything else. So it's just slapped around somewhere as if people know crap in the slightest.
SmashtoFuturePast
Leelue and Eli exaggerated a lot, but they argued that Sonic needed 'help' and you could just throw moves out at him to make him useless mid-2.1 erra.
Lucien and Prof Pro both vocalized to me that they thought Wolf was a weak(ish) character in 2.1.
In both of these situations, I encouraged them to play more, work at it differently (won't go into detail), and that the characters were solid. They wouldn't have any of it...
It was easy to see they were all missing (a ****ton) given the individuals throughout the game had immeasurably different ways of making the characters function, and didn't cross streams in the slightest, showing how much there was in lacking-dynamics in plain sight. Yet every one of them (some more than others) were sure Sonic/Wolf weren't 'good enough' in the game. As well, even though 'theoretically' a character that fast, and a character with that many tools, would NEVER be NOT tournament-winning viable in the game, they 'still' were getting bad wrap as if they weren't 'good enough' and something had to be done.
Sonic was centralized and got complained about to be changed anyway, so that's good, but fortunately Wolf was just dropped by most players (including both of them^), so he wasn't even touched significantly. Lucas/Luigi/Pika weren't touched (among many others) by any publicly viewable quality player, so there was NOTHING to go off of regarding changing them, fortunately the PMBR acted on this correctly as well (by doing nothing) [No offense to the players with them, but there is work to do]
If anyone says Wolf was 'bad' in 2.1 now, then what's the deal with the SAME tool-kit he has in 2.5? If anyone says Sonic was 'bad' in 2.1 now, then what's the deal with him having the SAME speed in 2.5?
No, the changes weren't enough to put them over the top, Sonic just has it easier, and Wolf just has more representatives. People put the work in, and surprise surprise.
I just want people to look at things differently, so they can see things clearer, because so far, everyone is fogged up as **** and this isn't just a Project: M thing, people are generally jumping on that 'human error' wagon every chance they get.
It's as if people think knowledge/knowing what's 'correct' is important or something, and it's like a race to get that inevitable/dead-end insight rather than try and actually give any chance into figuring out why someone else might see it differently. Instead, people have to voice their concerns/opinions but can't leave it at that to contemplate/genuinely think about it, and just throw their thoughts around as concrete blocks. lol
My concrete block to be thrown around is simply "I don't know ****, but by everything you're saying, you don't know **** either, let's share what we 'know' without grasping, rejecting, or keeping any of it, it's **** after all."
Tier list talk is 100% entertainment, with a lingering potential to have some insightful conversation that might help the development of the game or mod. That's all.
It's probably more inaccurate than it is accurate, but it's all we've got.
Hence I encourage it, but also encourage people to not take ANY of it seriously. ESPECIALLY your own ****. haha
1) Sonic - 178 2) Fox - 168 3) Marth - 158 4) Wolf - 156 5) Falco - 150 6) Sheik - 149 7) Peach-147 7) Pit - 147 7) Diddy Kong - 147 7) Charizard - 147 11) Ike - 146 12) Ivysaur - 142 13) Link - 141 13) Wario - 141 13) Captain Falcon - 141 16) Donkey Kong - 139 16) Snake - 139 18) Ganondorf - 138 19) Jigglypuff - 137 20) Bowser - 135 21) Zero Suit Samus - 133 22) Zelda - 131 23) Lucario - 129 24) Mario - 126 25) ROB - 120 26) Mr. Game & Watch - 119 26) Luigi - 119 28) Ness - 118 28) Toon Link - 118 30) Pikachu - 116 31) Lucas - 113 32) King Dedede - 110 33) Squirtle - 88
Explanation (Please Read):
My tier list was made from a new system that I thought up myself and tested out. The idea was that every character should have their individual aspects be ranked (from 1-10) instead of just their whole character in general.
I came up with a fair amount of areas of importance that I felt a character needed to be successful in this game and weighted each attribute.
Here is the template for how I ranked each character:
Character - X points Range (x3): X Mobility (x3): X Combos/Damage Racking (x4): X Approcahing (x3): X Killing Potential (x3): X Zoning (x2): X Recovery (x2): X Weight (x1): X Tournament Results (x1): X
As you can see from the ordering of the tier list the order is pretty accurate overall. There are a few questionable characters, such as Falco being so low, but there are also some characters that I think were done justice by this system. One such character is Ivysaur, who I always felt was underrated (I mean he has great range, zoning, kill power, and does very well at tournaments), and this system shows it.
I don't believe that this is a perfect list, but I think if this system was further refined (for example add more categories such as fall speed or change the values of the multipliers) it would show why certain characters are better than others.
For example:
Let's pick a target value that we want every character at. Let's say 150 points.
Well let's take Fox. He is currently at 168 points. So why don't we nerf him a little. If we tone down the power of his up smash and uair, his killing power could be at a 6 instead of an 8. Let's also make his dash dance not as amazing and that would move his mobility from a 10 to an 8. Finally, let's make his approaching options not as OP. Perhaps make his nair not as safe on shield and make his shine come out one frame later, making his approaching from an 8 to a 6.
Now Fox is at 150 points.
Now let's take a weaker character like Zelda (she's my main so I feel comfortable talking about her). Currently Zelda is at 131 points. So why don't we buff her a little. If we made her fair and bair have longer range, and put the sweet spot area past her foot instead of on her foot, she could be given a 7 for range instead of a 5. Now how about giving her a better wavedash and/or make her teleporting faster. That could raise her mobility from a 3 to a 5. Let's also give her a slightly better approach option, like making her Nayru's Love hitbox come out faster or have more priority and not be so unsafe on shield. Now she could have a 6 for approacahing instead of 4. Finally let's make her a slight bit heavier, changing her weight from a 2 to a 3.
Now Zelda is at 150 points.
Now Zelda is *theoretically* just as good as Fox (well the nerfed version of Fox). This could essentially make every character in the game be even if we tried to make every character have the same point value. Please tell me what you think about this system.
Note 1: Lot's of these values I kinda just pulled out without thinking about it too much. I by no means am an expert on every character in the game, so tell me if I was just wrong on some values.
Note 2: I have very little knowledge on Peach and ROB, so don't taking their placings too seriously. I kinda just made up their values.
Note 3: I know some of these character placements may seem strange, but the general consensus is pretty accurate, and I think this system may work out some character bias certain people have. For instance, Falco seems a little low, but I couldn't justify giving him any more points. Maybe it's a flaw in my system, or maybe Falco just isn't as good as all the hype around him.
And how do you list Range and zoning as seperate categories? Range is a component of zoning.
It's a very silly weighing of character analysis. How do you even decide how many points to allocate to a character, or why they are weighted the way they are?
Everything about this categorizing of characters is skewed/lacking a fundamental understanding of analyzing characters at a micro- and macro-level. Especially concerning is what you categorize as character traits in the first place.
I don't mind the concept behind his list. But it needs tweaking. Weight being a good thing when separated from recovery irks me. There's no negative penalty here for bowser being ****ing huge. No boon for peach having float cancelling, no boon for Oos shield options, etc.
To his credit, his list overall follows the trends you see.
And how do you list Range and zoning as seperate categories? Range is a component of zoning.
It's a very silly weighing of character analysis. How do you even decide how many points to allocate to a character, or why they are weighted the way they are?
Everything about this categorizing of characters is skewed/lacking a fundamental understanding of analyzing characters at a micro- and macro-level. Especially concerning is what you categorize as character traits in the first place.
Well I said it wasn't perfect. I kinda just made up the numbers and multipliers.
I don't know everything, I was just testing something out, and it seemed to generate relatively accurate results. The point of this is (considering this system is accurate) you can now see where a certain character needs improvement to become as viable as the other characters.
It was just an experiment I did on my own, so I can't guarantee everything is accurate.
Also, it's not just comboing, but also damage racking. Adding damage quickly is a pretty important part of this game so I thought it should be weighed heavily.
Also again, ya range is a component of zoning, but just because a character has good range doesn't mean they will be good at zoning, for example Bowser. Range is simply just the range of your moves. Also, a character can have poor range but good zoning, for example Toon Link.
I don't mind the concept behind his list. But it needs tweaking. Weight being a good thing when separated from recovery irks me. There's no negative penalty here for bowser being ****ing huge. No boon for peach having float cancelling, no boon for Oos shield options, etc.
To his credit, his list overall follows the trends you see.
Well that is right. The system could use some more categories (which is written in my explanation section). I just chose the things I thought were the most important overall to see how it turned out.
I like the list as a fun experiment. I don't know how of a tier list it will make as all the characters are being ranked in a vacuum where a tier list is comparing them all to one another.
Edit: What is so bad about Snake? I don't know much about the character at all.
I like the list as a fun experiment. I don't know how of a tier list it will make as all the characters are being ranked in a vacuum where a tier list is comparing them all to one another.
Edit: What is so bad about Snake? I don't know much about the character at all.
You actually raise a pretty good point. That's why I included the "Tournament Result's" section. Falco was actually quite a bit lower on this list before I added it, so I thought "why is that?" and decided that I should add that section to raise him a bit. It did well for other characters too.
It would probably be a good idea to have a "Matchups" section as well. However, matchups aren't know very well right now, so I don't think that would be a good idea right now, but maybe it would work well as the game progresses.
I'm confident that ness is bottom high tier.
