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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Plate is especially good at whining about Roy.
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
Nair all day every day.
PlateProp
Smash Master
He knows me so well <3
I dont think I ever actually played you while i've been in austin though
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
Olimar's jank, nerf him
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- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,560
Okay so I put a decent amount of time into this tier list, starting from two lists I had made in January and February. I ordered characters within tiers, but denoted (several) ties with | when I didn't care to order them. When ties are denoted, I ordered them alphabetically.
S+
S
| |
| |
A
| |
| |
B+
|
| |
|
B
|
| Fixed
| |
| |
B-
| | |
| |
| |
(Arguable C-Tier gap)
I had them ordered by a lot more initially, but decided that similar to Lunchables' tier list, the list serves its job of indicating character power through gaps instead of a fully ordered list, where the gaps between characters are not indicated and thus ambiguous, subject to interpretation by individual readers.
Characters are generally ranked based on a general feel for their matchup spread, and the popularity of the characters they lose to, giving a general idea of how likely that character is to perform well. For example, Roy loses to Jigglypuff and Dedede, but there are between 0 and 1 players who play those characters at the level of play that we see Roy showcased by players like Sethlon and Lunchables. By having "unpopular" bad matchups, Roy is more likely to perform well, despite having a numerically similar MU spread to others who are ranked below him. This is also why many characters' placing is influenced heavily by their MU with Fox; while there are usually between 0 and 2 players of any given character that can compete with top level players of any other given character, Fox has something like 10 or 15 players that can be described in that way. Having a matchup close to even vs Fox therefore significantly improves the character's ability to perform well in a given field that is properly representative of the metagame.
Some characters' placings I'm more sure of than others (such as characters immediately within my local metagame or characters I play myself), but I don't think that's particularly useful to the reader to know, so I'll leave it as is.
S+
S
| | | | A
| | | | B+
| | | | B
| | Fixed | | | | B-
| | | | | | | (Arguable C-Tier gap)
I had them ordered by a lot more initially, but decided that similar to Lunchables' tier list, the list serves its job of indicating character power through gaps instead of a fully ordered list, where the gaps between characters are not indicated and thus ambiguous, subject to interpretation by individual readers.
Characters are generally ranked based on a general feel for their matchup spread, and the popularity of the characters they lose to, giving a general idea of how likely that character is to perform well. For example, Roy loses to Jigglypuff and Dedede, but there are between 0 and 1 players who play those characters at the level of play that we see Roy showcased by players like Sethlon and Lunchables. By having "unpopular" bad matchups, Roy is more likely to perform well, despite having a numerically similar MU spread to others who are ranked below him. This is also why many characters' placing is influenced heavily by their MU with Fox; while there are usually between 0 and 2 players of any given character that can compete with top level players of any other given character, Fox has something like 10 or 15 players that can be described in that way. Having a matchup close to even vs Fox therefore significantly improves the character's ability to perform well in a given field that is properly representative of the metagame.
Some characters' placings I'm more sure of than others (such as characters immediately within my local metagame or characters I play myself), but I don't think that's particularly useful to the reader to know, so I'll leave it as is.
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so does anyone ever have a justification for lucario being that high with the state of his neutral, or are we all still salty over iPK
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
Lucario's neutral isn't even bad, why are people still trying to sell that idea
Blitzus
Smash Apprentice
Anyone not present on the tier list assumed to be god tier.
Attachments
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Oops, added squirtle.
I do not buy the "lucario has a bad neutral" story with his dash speed sorry.
I do not buy the "lucario has a bad neutral" story with his dash speed sorry.
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because a) he's trying to put him in the same league as sheik and wolf's neutral, and b) literally the top half of any PM tier list has a good punishment game, so that's not an excuse
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
- Joined
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- NNID
- hinichii
- 3DS FC
- 2423-5382-7542
With aura, Down B + any move. Godlike. He can also play super left right bros with the best of'em. The idea of lucario's neutral being bad, comes from bad players. Do not confuse.
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Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I feel like Peach beats to various degrees every single character you list in S tier groupings except for Fox.
And most of the characters up to what you have listed above her too.
Also spoilers, if you think Sheik has good neutral... you're wrong lol.
And most of the characters up to what you have listed above her too.
Also spoilers, if you think Sheik has good neutral... you're wrong lol.
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Blitzus
Smash Apprentice
Why isn't Ike in S+ tier? Isn't he broken?
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Does it really need that many tier gaps?
And does fox really need his own tier?
I don't see how he needs his own tier when there are relevant matchups he loses, if even slightly, and even a good number of characters who lose almost as few as him that should be moved up a tier to be with him if he isn't moved down to be with them
Also wtf juushichi sheik definitely has a good neutral lmao. You don't beat 21+ members of the melee cast without that.
And does fox really need his own tier?
I don't see how he needs his own tier when there are relevant matchups he loses, if even slightly, and even a good number of characters who lose almost as few as him that should be moved up a tier to be with him if he isn't moved down to be with them
Also wtf juushichi sheik definitely has a good neutral lmao. You don't beat 21+ members of the melee cast without that.
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
What are your thoughts on squirtles neutral?
This is crazy but I think he has one of the best neutral games in pm.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i dont buy it either, but i still think you have him a tier too high. hes def in the CF range imo
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
@
Strong Badam
Overall easily the best list I've seen probably, I like the detail. A couple questions:
- Why Pit so high? Putting him above most of the characters in B- seems kinda questionable - especially Ivy, Ness, and Zard.
- Why GnW so low? He seems ludicrously difficult to get in on, though that could be Bowser player bias.
- CF isn't next to Falco/Roy/ROB?
I mean, she's been buffed pretty well but not so much that it completely reverses the dynamic of melee matchups or lets her get in on ROB.
Strong Badam
Overall easily the best list I've seen probably, I like the detail. A couple questions:- Why Pit so high? Putting him above most of the characters in B- seems kinda questionable - especially Ivy, Ness, and Zard.
- Why GnW so low? He seems ludicrously difficult to get in on, though that could be Bowser player bias.
- CF isn't next to Falco/Roy/ROB?
Uhhhhh, she loses pretty badly to ROB and CF, loses to Fox, probably still loses to Sheik, and is probably about even with Wolf.
I mean, she's been buffed pretty well but not so much that it completely reverses the dynamic of melee matchups or lets her get in on ROB.
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- Joined
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- 26,560
Which matchups do you feel Fox loses? I've got a few in mind but would rather hear yours without influencing your answer.
There are 5 or 6 tiers, 3 of which being the same letter. I just didn't think having ~25 characters in one tier to be justified.
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Mr. Fabulous
Smash Cadet
Ehhh. I think Squirtle definitely has a very respectable neutral game between his d-tilt and grab game, and especially his movement (among other things), but nowhere close to the best. He loses too hard to disjoints and characters that can trade well.
I do think Squirt will eventually climb most tier lists, but not because of his neutral.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Haha. You really think Peach loses to Sheik in this game? You could argue that she's even with Wolf. I don't think she loses to ROB but you could make that argument. I would love to see DF or Oracle play Hanky to change my opinion, but I really doubt either of them have seen a comparable Peach. Maybe Oracle has played VaNz potentially. but SHEIK? naw man, there are at least 3 different ones up here that don't even bother playing that MU anymore, it is matchup BAD. She gets wrecked by Falcon, sure.
DF, a lot of those melee characters sucked **** before. Some of them still do, but less so. It's obvious that the punish game is where Sheik gets her advantage. Not neutral.
DF, a lot of those melee characters sucked **** before. Some of them still do, but less so. It's obvious that the punish game is where Sheik gets her advantage. Not neutral.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Well, we already know strong bad thinks roy beats fox 55-45 which I still think straight up isn't true due to roy not having the neutral to deal with fox
What else does fox arguably lose to?
What else does fox arguably lose to?
Samus, I'd say.
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Nah I don't think that anymore. I do far too well with Fox vs you and Sethlon in rotations for that to be the case, among other pieces of information I've gathered since saying that. When I started full hopping... the world started making sense.
EDIT: I would recommend people expressing their disagreement to be constructive with their expression. For example, saying "Mario is too high" is pretty weak. Something more along the lines of "hey, so you have X Y and Z listed under Mario, and I think those characters are better than Mario" provides a lot more insight and information.
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Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I think Samus is probably on of the characters that does the best verses Fox at the moment.
Dart!
Smash Master
Fox too high
D
Deleted member
Guest
i dont think roy beats fox per se but i do think roy is one of the few characters that can handle fox at all (the other character being the fox ditto)
Iceman
Smash Apprentice
941
Smash Journeyman
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Can you explain your reasoning? I definitely think they can compete with a lot of characters, but with bad MUs against the strongest/popular characters, I don't see them rising.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
ROB is the only one I'm confident about beating Fox; although I think probably Diddy beats him in the neutral though I can't say I know too much about the punishment game there, but unless it's wolf or ZSS tier vs fox he stands a chance of coming out even or on top there. Samus feels even at worst for her vs fox being able to force him to approach and being difficult to punish since uthrow is mostly ineffective and he has a hard time pressuring her. Sheik almost certainly feels better vs fox compared to melee considering laser/usmash nerf for fox, Sheik's improved boost grab (i'm pretty sure it is anyways, it's amazing now), being able to effectively choose how fox get dthrow/bthrow changes, and crawl/b-reverse needle cancels giving her new ways to improve her small scale spacing. Ripple 88nailyH thinks DDD beats fox which actually wouldn't surprise me since he has a similar thing going on to ROB where he can use a projectile to defend from laser spam, is hard to actually bully around/trade with/approach effectively, and gets an obscene reward off of converted hits especially if they become grabs or started as such.
Rizner
Smash Ace
I am curious about the placements of Rob and link.
I mostly know the Rob matchup for Zelda only, and I assume there is something about him I'm missing, so what is it that gets him that high? Just the ability to hang in against characters or players who can't deal with projectile options? I personally see him as too stage dependant to have lots of favorable matchups against a wide variety of the cast.
And for link, what is it that puts him below characters like Ness, (still broken) ice climbers, Ganon, or Pit? I feel like link loses to some or most of the very top, but doesn't have any matchups too terrible outside of those (which many others above him also deal with). He has a solid game against lots who are lower than s tier imo
I mostly know the Rob matchup for Zelda only, and I assume there is something about him I'm missing, so what is it that gets him that high? Just the ability to hang in against characters or players who can't deal with projectile options? I personally see him as too stage dependant to have lots of favorable matchups against a wide variety of the cast.
And for link, what is it that puts him below characters like Ness, (still broken) ice climbers, Ganon, or Pit? I feel like link loses to some or most of the very top, but doesn't have any matchups too terrible outside of those (which many others above him also deal with). He has a solid game against lots who are lower than s tier imo
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
ROB's projectile options are overrated (good but generally can be handled in neutral), what makes him good is ability to force his way into most characters' zones from an odd angle and safely whittling their shield down over time if they try to respond defensively or forcing them to deal with his CC options while taking space from them if they try to respond passively
PlateProp
Smash Master
Is squirtle being bad a tier list meme now lmao