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Tier List Speculation

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
I just don't want stupid flavor-but-no function things like DeDeDe arbitrarily swallowing his minions instead of spitting them out as stars. He doesn't need a thousand little changes with his mechanics and recovery and all that, just cut out the bull****.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
they did take one away for some reason.

hell, if he had his normal amount of midair jumps, I wouldn't care for any buffs to his up-b
 

Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
It's not wise to pick on Zelda. Zelda mains tend to be ... particularly passionate and defensive about their character.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
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Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
It doesn't even feel like a particularly effective playstyle though. Like, you'd want the camping and smashes to make her feel like she's more than an averageish character. Good job feeling powerful against the Pikachu and Luigi players I guess.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
For real. Honestly, give her Melee SD Remix Din's Fire but with P:M Din's Fire control. I have so much fun with that Din's Fire and with SDR Zelda all damn day.

Traps are neat until you realize that they're kind of useless. Hell they seem to hurt me more than help me when I play as her in P:M. SDR Din's Fire is also better at edge guarding, which is what everyone seems to use it for anyway.
 

leelue

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
1,926
Location
All up in your personal space, NY
I feel like she had a very well-thought out plan but after some time in the real world she's kinda ehhhhhh
I like defensive characters. She's just balls-out obnoxious
Coming from 1) someone Strongbad called "the guy trying hardest to avoid contact out of anyone I've ever seen" and 2) Once the defining campy sonic player.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
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Messages
9,632
gee Brain, what are we going to do tonight then?
 

Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
But we do that every week.
Well for the past few weeks, it's been:

-Why spacies are dumb (or not)
-Sonic ********
-Recoveries are OP
-More spacie debates
-Whether Reflex can DD or not
-Whether DDD is decent or not
-Spacie debate continues
-**** Zelda

Not much of Squirtle recently.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Sonic is bull****

Lemme rephrase that

He's REAL close to bull**** lol
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
Lets talk about Diddy Kong and Wario. I don't hear much about them and hear they are both really good. What up with that?
 

Translucent

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
354
Wario has a lot of trouble against Marth because he lacks a lot of range. He gets comboed quite well, and doesn't have too many bread'n butter comboes of his own. Wario is a ton of fun to play, with arguably the best ditto matchup in the game.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
I dunno why Diddy is so highly rated, seems really janky and unsmooth. Like, who mains the character? I saw Eli that 1 time vs M2K with Diddy, and I see Disco play him, but that's literally it.


Wario is fun, but his MU spread vs the top characters feels pretty bad. Falco Marth and Sheik feel really hopeless sometimes. If you are going off the survey list on page 63, I only think Wario does great vs Diddy and Bowser above him. Everything else seems debatable on whether he goes even or loses. Even below him, it doesn't seem like he has a particularly easy MU with Ike or Falcon or characters around that level. I really like Wario though, and I wouldn't change much about him, he's in a very good spot. He's a very capable character, that basically is just surrounded by some better characters. There aren't any (or many) fatal flaws to the character, and if you potentially buffed those areas, he would be monstrous and not as enjoyable balance wise.


The only aspect about the character that I do not enjoy entirely, is that a big portion of his gameplay can be based of "tricky" throws or tech chase options. Like, you can gain or lose a TON of options based on whether they correctly DI either bite toss direction, whether they DI quick Fthrow good, whether they CC tech Dsmash, etc. Some of it is fairly gimmicky and will be lose over time as people gain experience against the character, and the general rule of thumb is if you DI away from Wario's body that you picked the safest option. Regardless of character or weight/float. Compare that to characters that may have mixups or punishes regardless of DI.


Wario doesn't have as many BnB combos, but he has general pressure situations that apply to a lot of characters, and he can generally have a favorable RPS when he is on offense. He's more on the fly, where once you start a scenario you see how to play it out best and keep it going. I mean sometimes, something cheesy like Double Dtilt into JC grab is a combo, or you can catch people with bad DI on throws, but basically you get in and try to figure out what hit will work for that moment in time. With your air mobility and above average options up close, he's very capable of just "making it work" if you know what I mean. Like if they are a character that will have a hard time if they get offstage, you aren't too concerned about landing X move, you're concerned about landing any of 2-3 moves in that moment that will probably send them off, with you still in the driver seat of momentum. Plenty of times you won't have a true combo, but will have a huge advantage over them, which can be just as dangerous for that character.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
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Columbus, Ohio
Carls usually poops on the Marth's around here, but it might just be the Marth's being bad.

DMG put a very good analysis of the character around.

Vashimus, you also missed the consistent discussion of how bad GnW is.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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Premium
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Messages
26,550
I feel like she had a very well-thought out plan but after some time in the real world she's kinda ehhhhhh
I like defensive characters. She's just balls-out obnoxious
Coming from 1) someone Strongbad called "the guy trying hardest to avoid contact out of anyone I've ever seen" and 2) Once the defining campy sonic player.
I hadn't played Wizzrobe yet.
 

Blondie.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
280
Location
Aggieland, College Station, TX
You guys are crazy! Zelda is so much fun! <3

I wouldn't change a thing about her if I had the choice (except maybe a slightly longer ranged fair).

Her Din's fire are extremely effective, you just need to put in the time to learn how to use them right. They aren't something you can just derp around with like practicaly everything else in the game.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
Wario has a lot of trouble against Marth because he lacks a lot of range. He gets comboed quite well, and doesn't have too many bread'n butter comboes of his own. Wario is a ton of fun to play, with arguably the best ditto matchup in the game.
Just you wait until Ice Climbers are finished.

Every character considered either bad or "not quite good" by a reasonable margin of players:

DeDeDe
Luigi
Squirtle
Zero Suit Samus
Ivysaur
Ness

And ones that don't get much talk and have been seen all over list:

Ganon
Zelda
Falcon
Toon Link

And then there's this ******:

Pikachu
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
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Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Throw out Nair, Din Fire loses

Said every character ever






(Vast oversimplification, but feels super true at crucial moments)

Ganon and Falcon get some talk, usually about struggling to keep up with new and buffed threats added.

We don't talk about Pikachu for good reasons.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
It is super true. Anyone who says "Din's Fire is so broken, make it worse" has never tried just ****ing attacking the fire mines.

For real just throw your boots at those ****ers.
 

Blondie.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
280
Location
Aggieland, College Station, TX
^
Grab the idiots who nair the Din's and then **** them with Zelda's insanely good throws


(Vast oversimplification, but it gets the job done)

Seriously, that's like the easiest bait against spacies. And then as long as Zelda doesn't mess up, she can combo the spacies to death.

Edit: Are you guys seriously that dumb or have you never played a competent Zelda player? This game is much deeper than "Durr hurr just hit the stupid things!'
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,141
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Darien, IL
No one is just gonna ****ing see Din's Fire and be like "I must kick it" but if you're looking to get closer and there's a wall of fire in your way you can literally just hit it with anything.

Hell if you catch Zelda in the act of using one and it stops right in front of you, just have your attack already out and it just goes away.

I've seriously only ever been afraid of Din's Fire when it was set up and Zelda had plans to use it in extended combos and that doesn't happen all that often unless you are Zhime.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
As a Ness player, I try nairing those din's fires all the time and its a toss up which ones i break through. Honestly, I would like for the developers to try and make the fires even more fragile. I think they should be there for two purposes. Exploding to deal damage, or staying out there to force you into a bad position.

currently, the zone design is "you can't go through here" whereas I think the design should be "if you want to enter here, you will need to commit to an aerial (and have a plan to get out of said aerial".

I think the din's fires need to be the most fragile hitbox's ever (maybe even increase their hurtboxes), but they still do the damage if you run into them, and they still **** you when they explode. If this was the case, Zelda would be way less annoying to play against because din's fire would give her a way to change the way opponents approach/commit rather than change their positioning.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
She isn't popular because only like, Brawl Zelda players find her design fun. Her Melee lightning kicks were strictly nerfed while she got Brawl ones added in on top of them and was turned from a close range interactive character into a boring trap layer. Mu-13 is never going to be fun to play against.

It isn't like it's something inherit to her design. I'd rather play as Melee Zelda from a design perspective than PM. She may be a worse character, but has a much more logical design.

As a Ness player, I try nairing those din's fires all the time and its a toss up which ones i break through. Honestly, I would like for the developers to try and make the fires even more fragile. I think they should be there for two purposes. Exploding to deal damage, or staying out there to force you into a bad position.

currently, the zone design is "you can't go through here" whereas I think the design should be "if you want to enter here, you will need to commit to an aerial (and have a plan to get out of said aerial".

I think the din's fires need to be the most fragile hitbox's ever (maybe even increase their hurtboxes), but they still do the damage if you run into them, and they still **** you when they explode. If this was the case, Zelda would be way less annoying to play against because din's fire would give her a way to change the way opponents approach/commit rather than change their positioning.
You're assuming the other player wants to approach Zelda rather than just outzone her like a lot of characters can do already.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
She isn't popular because only like, Brawl Zelda players find her design fun. Her Melee lightning kicks were strictly nerfed while she got Brawl ones added in on top of them and was turned from a close range interactive character into a boring trap layer. Mu-13 is never going to be fun to play against.

It isn't like it's something inherit to her design. I'd rather play as Melee Zelda from a design perspective than PM. She may be a worse character, but has a much more logical design.



You're assuming the other player wants to approach Zelda rather than just outzone her like a lot of characters can do already.
Yeah...there's that. I think the way a Zelda player wants to have an engagement is to have an opponent come to them because of her obviously slow speed but nice close range and power. She can caplitalize on mistakes rather well...but when she gets outcamped, its serious bad news. Thats what nayru's love is for, I guess...until you play m2k's falco.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
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Columbus, Ohio
Idk, I think Zelda is fine.

Sometimes she's able to force engagements on her terms and her entire design is kinda built around dissuading people from appearing where she wants and then punishing opponents for being wrong. It's a "boring" design, I guess but instead of that we should see if it's effective.

For the most part, I guess it's effective enough? Playing Zhime is fun and... I'm not sure if there's any other ones of note.
 

Oracle

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,471
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Dallas, TX
zelda is pretty damn amazing but I don't think it has anything to do with the side b traps. More to do with having an invincible pressure move thats neutral on block and is land cancellable and immune to crouch cancelling >.> honestly zelda is one of the best designed characters imo other than a few things like that. the trap aspect is unique and allows for lots of cool combos and spacing situations, and is extremely difficult to use effectively, which is why there are only two good zelda players despite her being a ridiculous character
 

Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
Zelda really is the hipster character.

*People bad mouth Zelda*
Zelda player: Zelda? Poorly designed? *chuckles and sips tea* You simpletons clearly don't have the faintest clue of how Zelda works. How amusing."

"Zelda takes patience and finesse to excel with. Every movement must be thoroughly calculated, something that you peasants couldn't POSSIBLY understand! Hohoho!"
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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TheReflexWonder
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I think a landing-canceled invincible attack is kind of obnoxious, but, she probably needs it to be relevant against faster characters.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
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Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
God damn right. Ever shield with Zelda, you better be trying to jump and press B if they hit it.

Zelda is not a hipster character. She's a princess. Din's fire is not that impressive, and she doesn't tend to truly control the pace of the match. Even if she is up vs a character that struggles with her walls (by that I mean someone like Luigi who probably wants your Smashes and kicks and Tilts dead), you're basically reacting with her. You aren't rushing down "Diddy" making the moves lol.

The character is basically a flowchart of:

1A. Use Dins
1B. Don't use Dins
2A. If they get close, pick a Smash or tilt that will probably work
2B. If it's someone slower and geared towards the air, you can even use Fair and Bair as reactive walls to deal with
3. PRESS B AND PRETEND YOUR FINGER SLIPPED
4. Spacies get grabbed and die (have you SEEN your character? It's Zelda, terror of the skies)
5. If you haven't won by now, chances are because your character tends to blow on "actual" offense and relies 80% of the time for people to approach her in an incorrect way, rather than pave an offensive path to victory on her own.

PS

6. You get cookies win or lose, for playing Zelda and trying to have fun
 
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