Tier List Speculation

[Comprehend13]

Too much work. It's not worth it.

Can anyone point me to a specific page with a 3.5 tier list?

Fox is high tier. Everyone else is at least mid tier save Olimar. Or so say the masses.

 

[Ningildo]

Note:
Bar Top and Olimar tier, every tier list right now is different.

AKA there's no general consensus for most of the tier list, so take them with a grain of...salt.

 

[GabPR]

Note:
Bar Top and Olimar tier, every tier list right now is different.

AKA there's no general consensus for most of the tier list, so take them with a grain of...salt.

The harder it is to agree on a tier list, the better. It means the pmdt is getting closer to doing balance right.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Too much work. It's not worth it.

Can anyone point me to a specific page with a 3.5 tier list?

629

 

[Foo]

Too much work. It's not worth it.

Can anyone point me to a specific page with a 3.5 tier list?

I would, but too much work. It's not worth it.

 

[Boiko]

Kek. Just tested ROB's dthrow on Tink.
0% can regrab regardless of DI.
After second dthrow, if they DI away, you can regrab again, if they don't you can reverse bair into a grab (weird SDI might stop this idk).
Keep in mind these can all be interrupted by platforms, but I just upthrow <40% to get around that (any higher you can just dthrow and follow up above platform); past 40% is way past CG range, way past third dthrow would send if you regrabbed again.
After third dthrow (after the bair, they should be at ~29% before the throw), and probably until around 100, you can get any aerial off. After this throw's follow-up you should probably be able to escape any more guaranteed damage, with the right DI. Baby jesus cries everytime you get fairchained mid stage.
Up until 140%, you can get boost upair which will almost always at that percent. Any higher, you can pummel until they are past 152% which guarantees a uthrow kill (test on FD's ceiling) depending on the ceiling height.

I mean, I always knew it was this crazy. It can also CG fox/falco 0-to-death every time if no platform gets in the way. dthrow till ~105 (slightly higher for falco) then upsmash/DACUS. Fair them to death if they go offstage. And if for whatever reason you get them to like 170, too low for uthrow kill on spacies, dthrow still combos into boost->any uair, lmao

Thank goodness he only has one thing this reliable, and that he's kinda slow on the ground.
good character design 101 courtesy of JCaesar

PMDT should just do to ROB what they did to Ness and increase KBG of dthrow. But they probably shouldn't do what they did to Ness and not compensate the change somewhere.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

When the response to Ike charging QD when you can actually do something about it is always "Run towards him and slap him in his stupid face" it really doesn't have too many mixups.

QD expands Ike's punish range, it doesn't do anything for his approach. <- Ike 101

The best way to nerf it if y'all really want is to remove QD attack entirely, or nerf it harder than it was in 3.5. Suddenly all of Ike's non-grab punishes are aerials a.k.a "Expose sternum for punish"

tl;dr QD doesn't really force a 50/50 b/w shielding (and getting grabbed) or not, it has way more interaction than is being implied her, can be stuffed relatively painlessly by most of the cast and severely patches up a lot of holes in Ike's game. Try not to hot-button nerf one of the coolest things about this game (and yes I mean that.)

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'll be sad if QD is removed and I don't even play Ike

 

[Foo]

JC quickdraw should be removed no questions asked. Something something burst movement, something something, something jank something, uninteractive something, something something polarizing, and something something melee. I mean duh.

#NotStillSaltyAboutZSS

 

[GP&B]

Prior to 3.5, I honestly only wanted paralyzer to not be transcendent and for ZSS to not restore her Down B on hit so that actually edgeguarding her did something.

 

[Psyant]

You tell 'em Ike mains. Don't let them get their hands on your super cool and fun mobility tool, or you'll be crying yourself to sleep every night like I still do over QAC.

 

[TreK]

I learned the other day that in the version prior to when I picked up DK, he could jump cancel his dash attack on the ground
What a beast he must've been

Like omfg, Ike with a touch-of-death grab.

 

[Shoto]

Why are people complaining about Luigi's recovery? Nothing has changed about it aside from down b rising higher because of simultaneous button presses. You can still easily gimp him offstage with a well timed aerial, and he'll have a lot of trouble getting back. Wait for his down b, hit him, and watch him fall. Punish the side b which he has to commit too for half a second. It's not difficult; I mean i can understand misfire being somewhat of an issue, but even that can be predictable if Luigi is far off from the stage. Even if he does misfire, you can stop it where its at with any hitbox.
Him grabbing ledge with side b has been the case since 2.5 (probably even before), so i don't see the issue here since it never was an issue before.
Down b rise only goes vertically so just throw out an aerial and its ggs.

Honestly I don't see the problem here. His recovery is decent now because of everyones recovery being nerfed, but it's still easily taken care of. Don't be afraid to go offstage.

This is in reply to some of the comments I saw about it in the previous pages.

I don't see why anyone would complain about it. It's kinda like Falco's except you can't angle it. It's much WORSE. The Missle only takes you so far, and the occasional misfire is a blessing. But if you don't have a jump, chances are you aren't getting back.

 

[Deleted member]

Too much work. It's not worth it.

Can anyone point me to a specific page with a 3.5 tier list?

this is not the game for you

 

[NWRL]

Why not just increase the JC window to frame 4. Ike has a 5 frame jump squat so he'd have to commit to another frame of QD which is a pretty sizable distance.

That's if QD even needs to be nerfed. It's a strong tool but it's really only used to extend punishes. It's a bad tool in neutral

 

[The_NZA]

I see Ike's get stuff off grabs all the time but I also see them miss things off grabs all the time. Is it possible the people who are complaining about QD simply have undeveloped counterplay to the grabs that Ike uses, and need to spend some lab time to figure it out, just like they did for Marth and everyone else? I mean, bthrow, dthrow, and uthrow are pretty slow. If you are Awake and always responding to fthrow until you see some other animation, theoretically you can get out of a lot of his stuff. It just seems like Ike has powerful throw mixups, which I never think is an unbalanced trait on a character.

I kind of don't understand how in a world where Falcon and Sonic exist, somehow people think Ike is problematic.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ladies and germs, I present the Marth / Bowser matchup

I don't play Ike, but I'm glad that at least one heavy is a force to be reckoned with. I'd rather not be too hasty with the nerf bats on his account; he's probably fine.

 

[steelguttey]

oh ohhh now do falcon vs bowser

or ike vs bowser

or anyone vs bowser

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I see Ike's get stuff off grabs all the time but I also see them miss things off grabs all the time. Is it possible the people who are complaining about QD simply have undeveloped counterplay to the grabs that Ike uses, and need to spend some lab time to figure it out, just like they did for Marth and everyone else? I mean, bthrow, dthrow, and uthrow are pretty slow. If you are Awake and always responding to fthrow until you see some other animation.

@metroid1117 said this a very long time ago. It basically means that Bthrow and Dthrow are best used for positioning, and which of the two is used to throw behind Ike depends on the opponent's percentage and weight class. It's a bit Marth like in that those throws are good at the edge for forcing a follow-up or an edgeguard situation depending on the DI. Uthrow is the low-percent launcher and fast-faller throw, but outside of spacy chaingrabs is honestly best used for platform chases at low percent than any follow-ups.

Like I have said a hundred times in a hundred places, Ike's combo game is kind of eh because of how hard he hits. He's about position, reach, spacing, option coverage and above all, reads. You cannot QDWTFYOLO your way to victory, it's not even an amazing tech chase tool because of its min distance and directional commitment (which means covering every option by charging QD happens in only very specific positions) and I think we've all finally gotten to the point where we can agree it doesn't break his recovery. Seriously, work with me here on how this ****ing amazing piece of design is doing nasty things to the game because I just don't ****ing see it.

 

[Ace55]

Ladies and germs, I present the Marth / Bowser matchup

Fair into him reading your shield (why not upB on wakeup, it's still dumb good) into what I feel like was a very poorly DI'd fthrow into Fsmash is the matchup? What is the point you're trying to make?

*Not trying to be mean.

 

[robosteven]

Since this is a tier list speculation thread, I figure (if his up-b and grab problems were fixed) that Olimar would be either mid or high mid simply because of his punish game off of grab, his quick aerial kills, and his ability to occasional luck with specific Pikmin ensuring a massive rack-up of damage.

...Add making Pikmin Throw a real projectile like purple Pikmin to him and I think he's high tier.

Olimar's still ridiculously slept on.

edit: since we're talking Ike right now, I think he's good. I don't think he's broken at all though, QD is like the only thing making him not just "a dude with a big sword"

instead, he's "a dude with a big sword that can occasionally go ZOOM"

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fair into him reading your shield (why not upB on wakeup, it's still dumb good) into what I feel like was a very poorly DI'd fthrow is the matchup? What is the point you're trying to make?

1. not me playing
2. he didn't need to read the shield - that grab (if properly timed, which this one wasn't) beats literally anything Bowser can do on wakeup. Though unlikely, it's possible that the upB may have caught the grab during its iframes (and otherwise accomplished nothing other than maybe a retreat to the ledge), but that's only because the marth walked across the entire stage and was thus a couple frames late.
3. Even if the Fthrow was DI'd perfectly, Marth would have a very easy edgeguard
4. DI-ing the fthrow perfectly is about as difficult as perfectly DI-ing Fox/Jiggs' uthrow, which top 5 Melee players fail all the time.
5. Not sure if you noticed that standing grab range vs the tip of Bowser's nose (which is actually quite a bit reduced when Bowser is shielding, due to the posture change).

.
For reference, this is more range than Bowser's only remotely safe/fast neutral poke (the jab, which comes out only 1 frame faster than Marth's grab anyway), and near identical to the dtilt (which is much slower). This means that Bowser has literally 0 realistic means of keeping Marth out of this spacing. Compounded with his lack of means of stopping Marth from DDing all over the stage and Bowser's total lack of a usable spotdodge, this pretty much means that it's literally impossible to not get regularly grabbed by an intelligent Marth. Marth's grab followups are amazing due to the fact that it's either a free tech chase (if Bowser is 100% consistent with the previously noted highly difficult DI -- also worth noting that Bowser has a terribly slow tech roll), or a free tipper (if he messes up slightly, which, again, even the very best players do regularly).

*Not trying to be mean.

Heh, appreciate it. I'm not trying to be sanctimonious. I actually just did a bunch of labbing with this and discovered that DI doesn't really need to account for the dthrow (I'd always thought it was a mixup, and was wrong). I still think it's ludicrous in general, and the matchup is probably actually 90:10 or completely unwinnable, but I haven't seen a marth with the patience or discipline to consistently do nothing but dtilt and DD grab in neutral against Bowser.

I'm still salty, basically.

Olimar's still ridiculously slept on.

Only assuming the fixes though, right?

 

[Boiko]

4. DI-ing the fthrow perfectly is about as difficult as perfectly DI-ing Fox/Jiggs' uthrow, which top 5 Melee players fail all the time.

I find Marth's f-throw significantly easier to DI than Fox's up throw. What are you basing this off of?

 

[Strong Badam]

I learned the other day that in the version prior to when I picked up DK, he could jump cancel his dash attack on the ground
What a beast he must've been

Like omfg, Ike with a touch-of-death grab.

He could do it in 3.0 as well. It had fairly niche uses because of how late into the animation he could JC; so niche in fact that removing it hardly made him any worse at all.

& yeah I agree, QD is best used as a punishment extending tool. Using it in neutral vs good players is usually a death sentence.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I find Marth's f-throw significantly easier to DI than Fox's up throw. What are you basing this off of?

Personal experience is all I have to go on, due to my inability to find the frame data for either throw. I just personally get the DI for both of them with similar consistency.

It really doesn't help that Marth grabs Bowser so suddenly, from such a long range. When Fox runs at you, you have at least a few frames (once he runs in past your threat bubble, past where he can safely DD) to interpret what's about to happen and prepare to DI, but Marth is regularly at the same distance from which he can get a grab, so predicting it is much more difficult to do consistently.

 

[Deleted member]

& yeah I agree, QD is best used as a punishment extending tool. Using it in neutral vs good players is usually a death sentence.

i thought the same thing at first but i'm occasionally finding myself using QD now to cover chunks of stage to quickly establish positioning. that said i dont actually attack out of it, it's usually just a WD reset and then i look for something to react to. not sure if this is correct or not though.

 

[Ace55]

1. not me playing
2. he didn't need to read the shield - that grab (if properly timed, which this one wasn't) beats literally anything Bowser can do on wakeup. Though unlikely, it's possible that the upB may have caught the grab during its iframes (and otherwise accomplished nothing other than maybe a retreat to the ledge), but that's only because the marth walked across the entire stage and was thus a couple frames late.
3. Even if the Fthrow was DI'd perfectly, Marth would have a very easy edgeguard
4. DI-ing the fthrow perfectly is about as difficult as perfectly DI-ing Fox/Jiggs' uthrow, which top 5 Melee players fail all the time.
5. Not sure if you noticed that standing grab range vs the tip of Bowser's nose (which is actually quite a bit reduced when Bowser is shielding, due to the posture change).

1. My bad
2. Grab vs wake up upB will at least trade (still better than nothing), regardless it's a very strong wake up option. Retreat to the ledge is not a bad deal compared to getting hit again (refer to Sethlon Umbreon discussion earlier).
3. Marth would have an edgeguard situation sure, so you get a chance to recover, it's not quite as bad as you make it out to be. There are plenty of interactions where you can potentially trick him, you're likely gonna eat % but it doesn't have to be fatal.
4. Correct me if I'm wrong but that fthrow animation was not that fast, Bowser being as fat as he is actually makes Marth's throws easier to DI on reaction. This was really slow compared to say Jiggs upthrowing a Fox.
5. Yes Marth's grab range is absurd.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

It's funny how great Marth's grab range is,look at Ganon and Falcon,great throws with bad grab range.Not Marth,he gets both.

 

[GP&B]

The funny thing is, it's not like the grab boxes on it are horribly displaced (maybe a bit low and somewhat out front) either. Marth unlike other characters actually bothers to lean in when he grabs.

 

[MLGF]

Generally, the only QD I use in neutral is wavedash to obtain positioning. Anything else in neutral is a death sentence.

Although, I do respect Lunchables opinion on grabs and that maybe that Ike's grabs are a little conspicuous considering his kit. But then I remember that quickdraw chaingrabs, on people who can't DI, make me feel cool. And son, I like that.

 

[Strong Badam]

i thought the same thing at first but i'm occasionally finding myself using QD now to cover chunks of stage to quickly establish positioning. that said i dont actually attack out of it, it's usually just a WD reset and then i look for something to react to. not sure if this is correct or not though.

Yeah that's fine too, it's like a temporary falcon dash.

 

[Ace55]

It's funny how great Marth's grab range is,look at Ganon and Falcon,great throws with bad grab range.Not Marth,he gets both.

Marth's grab game isn't really comparable to Ganon's dthrow game. Giving Marth anything close would break the **** out of him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

1. My bad
2. Grab vs wake up upB will at least trade (still better than nothing)

Uh, it would, if upB's range was anywhere near the range of Marth's grab. Also, again, in the gif posted, it's only a remotely feasible option because the Marth chose to slowly walk across the entire stage rather than getting the guaranteed grab during Bowser's wakeup vulnerability.

Retreat to the ledge is not a bad deal compared to getting hit again

Obviously, if the Marth lets you do that.

Marth would have an edgeguard situation sure, so you get a chance to recover, it's not quite as bad as you make it out to be. There are plenty of interactions where you can potentially trick him, you're likely gonna eat % but it doesn't have to be fatal.

This may or may not be true. I think Marth actually has guaranteed flowchart edgeguards against Bowser, mostly due to how his hugely disjointed dair interacts with Bowser's highly linear/slow recovery; but it's possible that Bowser has nonreactable mixups. In practice so far, the latter is true, but there's not a ton of Marth players that know the matchup.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that fthrow animation was not that fast, Bowser being as fat as he is actually makes Marth's throws easier to DI on reaction. This was really slow compared to say Jiggs upthrowing a Fox

Again, the range from which he grabs has to be taken into consideration here. The throw itself is a bit slower, but it's effectively impossible to see coming (largely because of Bowser's huge hurtbox), therefore any DI has to be completely on reaction, which is simply not always feasible.

I'm not really sure how long the DI window lasts, and may need correcting on this, but it seems to me like it doesn't actually last all the way up to the point where it appears that Marth releases you.

i thought the same thing at first but i'm occasionally finding myself using QD now to cover chunks of stage to quickly establish positioning. that said i dont actually attack out of it, it's usually just a WD reset and then i look for something to react to. not sure if this is correct or not though.

I don't see why it wouldn't be correct. If you can safely take stage positioning, why wouldn't you? QD->WD is both faster than simply running in, and probably safer because it can threaten QDA/JCGrab mixups.

 

[DrinkingFood]

PMDT should just do to ROB what they did to Ness and increase KBG of dthrow. But they probably shouldn't do what they did to Ness and not compensate the change somewhere.

That's my solution I'm currently thinking about; it's the treatment a lot of characters' moves and throws got going into 3.5 anyway- turn down BKB a bunch, turn up KBG a bunch. I actually think at 0 it should have low enough hitstun to link into a jab at best (20 frames hitstun) if you're frame perfect. It would force you to uthrow if you wanted any kind of decent follow-up, which has a lower angle that more dramatically limits his follow-up options.
I played around with a bunch of numbers for using an 80° angle for dthrow (that's what uthrow uses) but with the same knockback stats. And it doesn't really fix the problem lol though it does make CGs on spacies way harder, but ROB could still get most of the same fair/uair follow ups at high percent on tink (like 20% less than dthrows numbers but still high), sans bair/nair/dair follow-ups which don't work at high percents regardless.
And the thought of extra endlag is just euch, i don't like it. The effects of that are completely unintuitive, it changes how his follow ups work at every percent. I still want it to be a good throw, so increasing the overall scaling of the KB means a lot of stuff still works, you just have to push it back or forward somewhere on the percent scale, and past like 80 most follow-ups wouldn't even be possible anymore except on FFers and maybe semiFFers like tink, depending on how you actually choose to scale the KB.

Man I really wanna like test this kinda thing out now; I wish I knew how to edit this kind of thing so I could make personal test builds for fun/theory/proposal. I also kinda wanna compensate his throw game ever so slightly by giving him an upthrow that's a quicker version of his current one with a higher release point. Kinda like Marth's uthrow in speed, but with its current KB stats/angle.

 

[StripedNinja]

Since this is a tier list speculation thread, I figure (if his up-b and grab problems were fixed) that Olimar would be either mid or high mid simply because of his punish game off of grab, his quick aerial kills, and his ability to occasional luck with specific Pikmin ensuring a massive rack-up of damage.

*wrong thread*

 

[StripedNinja]

*wrong thread*

 

[GP&B]

inb4steelguttey

 

[steelguttey]

Since this is a tier list speculation thread, I figure (if his up-b and grab problems were fixed) that Olimar would be either mid or high mid simply because of his punish game off of grab, his quick aerial kills, and his ability to occasional luck with specific Pikmin ensuring a massive rack-up of damage.

...Add making Pikmin Throw a real projectile like purple Pikmin to him and I think he's high tier.

Olimar's still ridiculously slept on.

edit: since we're talking Ike right now, I think he's good. I don't think he's broken at all though, QD is like the only thing making him not just "a dude with a big sword"

instead, he's "a dude with a big sword that can occasionally go ZOOM"

he still has rng and side b is fine how it is. lets him rack up damage.

 

[StripedNinja]

*wrong thread*

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

We just all need to be patient with the tiers and keep playing who we love. I stuck with Oli even after everyone said he was garbage, I played him 3DS day one and didn't stop and I still love him just as much (if not a whole lot more in the Wii U version).

This is the, uh, PM speculation thread bud.