Tier List Speculation

[foxygrandpa]

I just want to throw out the fact that I play aklo on a daily basis and we are both entirely convinced that he's bottom 10 in the game (far worse than ness for the record, who I don't understand why people think he's lower than midtier). He's clearly viable, but definitely not high tier. His down throw is good but that's literally the only thing he has. Everything else of his loses to crouch cancel, and his combo weight is atrocious.

 

[The_NZA]

Btw @ The_NZA , im gonna go all Ness at SG this week just for fun. This way I will be able to empathize with you about how bad he actually is lol

Why are you trying to kill our viewership.

You are riding high after flex zone.

 

[Deleted member]

Edit: yeah I don't like the ike/marth switch, put them back.

You're insane.

Edit: or good DI

Depending on character, DK can 0 to death vs good DI since cargo U throw + U airs is ridiculous. Mid weights and floaties don't feel this pain though

 

[Scuba Steve]

Depending on character, DK can 0 to death vs good DI since cargo U throw + U airs is ridiculous. Mid weights and floaties don't feel this pain though

That stuff is only ridiculous against like 5 or 6 members of the cast, though. It's a bit of an overstatement to call DK's punish game anything more than solid unless it's on fastfallers.

 

[zFrost]

Yeah, Ice Climbers are really solid. (Or will be, when they get bugfixed.)

any estimates on when this may be?

 

[Strong Badam]

That stuff is only ridiculous against like 5 or 6 members of the cast, though. It's a bit of an overstatement to call DK's punish game anything more than solid unless it's on fastfallers.

which isn't a particularly unique trait in this game

 

[941]

any estimates on when this may be?

I've read that the PMDT plans on releasing a bugfix patch by the end of January. I would like to know why people say they are going to be good in 3.5. They were considered bottom tier in 3.0 and the only significant changes in 3.5 were some small damage and hitbox buffs. Were other characters nerfed to the point they surpassed them or is there something I don't know about?

 

[zFrost]

I've read that the PMDT plans on releasing a bugfix patch by the end of January. I would like to know why people say they are going to be good in 3.5. They were considered bottom tier in 3.0 and the only significant changes in 3.5 were some small damage and hitbox buffs. Were other characters nerfed to the point they surpassed them or is there something I don't know about?

end of jan would be awesome!,

they have a rly stupid "inverse momentum glitch" i think it was called? go pick climbers and just turn around after like a wavedash or something it's terrible.

also climbers are highly underated imo

 

[Sethlon]

any estimates on when this may be?

If we had a window that we were expecting to hit for it, there would be an announcement. Lots of work is being done on it, but as is, we don't know when we'll be able to push it out.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I've read that the PMDT plans on releasing a bugfix patch by the end of January. I would like to know why people say they are going to be good in 3.5. They were considered bottom tier in 3.0 and the only significant changes in 3.5 were some small damage and hitbox buffs. Were other characters nerfed to the point they surpassed them or is there something I don't know about?

One of those bugfixes is handoffs working properly... I would say people are decide not to put them in bottom 5, not really putting them top 15 (so putting the mid tier, which is probably accurate).

 

[Seagull Joe]

Note that I said Ness can actually punish fast fallers and semi fast fallers extremely well, so they get screwed pretty hard when they mess up their counterresponse to his punish game. Hence why I can see why Seagull Joe lost, and also why Hax lost to StereoKIDD back at GUTS. Doesn't take anything away from StereoKIDD for optimizing so well, but it doesn't change my overall view of the character.

I lost because one grab=tons of damage loool. I get cg'd across the map unless I DI up a dthrow in which I get dair'd. Pretty sure wins the matchup now that doesn't have the ability to keep him out as easily. His recovery is also really good.

Also, Poob ran train on so many people, with several 0 to Kills on Professor Pro and StereoKIDD. DK has kill confirms out of grab on every cast member regardless of weight, and the ability to combo nearly everyone either through cargo uthrow dairs, or chained uairs and keeping them above him. His neutral game isn't great, but it isn't terribad either. He has good grab range and great pokes and range on his aerials, not to mention his jab-jab, is one of the best. For kills, he can reliably count on grabs to dk punch at really wide percent margins, uthrow uair on platformed stages like BF/FoD/YS, and he has up b OOS which is so strong. His main downside is his recovery sucks, but if we truly believe that at higher skills, punishgame/edgeguard game becomes optimized, then I'm not sure having a poor recovery is the worst thing if you have a punish game that reliably kills on all stages against all weight classes.

Meanwhile, for Ness, you can point out that StereoKIDD got 5th and went really far, going as far as to take out Seagull Joe. But I'd argue (and will keep arguing) that Ness truly is bottom tier. His neutral game is absolute garbage, and when people get the matchup experience they need, they won't get caught by fair into grab, or tomahawk grabs. Stereokidd got most of his kills and leads off of miss teched dairs into jab resets, which are insanely good at the current skill level people are playing at.

I think Poob had a lucky bracket to get as far as he did honestly looool (Still props to him). Look at this bracket tho (Specifically the opposite sides of losers around the 9th place to 5th areas): http://theflexzone.challonge.com/tfzpmsingles

Stereokidd also did not take me out of tournament. He beat me in winner's quarters. I lost to Professor pro in loser's eights.

 

[Boiko]

I lost because one grab=tons of damage loool. I get cg'd across the map unless I DI up a dthrow in which I get dair'd. Pretty sure wins the matchup now that doesn't have the ability to keep him out as easily. His recovery is also really good.

I think Poob had a lucky bracket to get as far as he did honestly looool (Still props to him). Look at this bracket tho (Specifically the opposite sides of losers around the 9th place to 5th areas): http://theflexzone.challonge.com/tfzpmsingles

Stereokidd also did not take me out of tournament. He beat me in winner's quarters. I lost to Professor pro in loser's eights.

Ness bops Diddy kind of hard now. Even in 3.02 it wasn't terrible.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ness bops Diddy kind of hard now. Even in 3.02 it wasn't terrible.

I disagree with both statements. destroyed fairly easy in 3.02. In 3.5 it's probably 40-60 or 45-55 at worst 's favor. It's my fault for getting grabbed in the first place (I shielded too much) and not teching anything really loool.

I'll start actually practicing after Apex for shots fired. I plan on top 5'ing that minimum.

 

[Boiko]

I disagree with both statements. destroyed fairly easy in 3.02. In 3.5 it's probably 40-60 or 45-55 at worst 's favor. It's my fault for getting grabbed in the first place (I shielded too much) and not teching anything really loool.

I'll start actually practicing after Apex for shots fired. I plan on top 5'ing that minimum.

Idk man I didn't do so poorly against you in 3.02 And back then Ness' chain grab lasted even longer. 60-40 is pretty convincing though. Ness forces his opponent into shield. It's his style.

 

[zFrost]

i smell a money match

 

[Boiko]

i smell a money match

We'll just play in tournament at shots fired.

 

[POOB]

I think Poob had a lucky bracket to get as far as he did honestly looool (Still props to him). Look at this bracket tho (Specifically the opposite sides of losers around the 9th place to 5th areas): http://theflexzone.challonge.com/tfzpmsingles

I guess it means nothing that I woulda been up 2-1 against professor pro had this not happened -> http://youtu.be/-yr49XSOwXo?t=13m6s

Yeah, I definitely got a little lucky with bracket. However, during that run I had to play 2 foxes(one being Animal, who as many know is a hella good player and ended up getting 3rd in melee that day), Stereo Kidd's Ness, Aklo's Link(twice), and Cipher's Diddy who beat DJ nintendo. Ask any DK main, and you will learn that is NOT an easy bracket matchup-wise for DK. I honestly was scared ****less when I found out I was playing Animal. Here was the conversation between Boiko and I lmao
"Who am I playing next?"
"Animal"
"F***"

So yeah, in a player sense, I got dodged lots of bullets from the upsets. But In a character sense, I got pretty unlucky.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I guess it means nothing that I woulda been up 2-1 against professor pro had this not happened -> http://youtu.be/-yr49XSOwXo?t=13m6s

Yeah, I definitely got a little lucky with bracket. However, during that run I had to play 2 foxes(one being Animal, who as many know is a hella good player and ended up getting 3rd in melee that day), Stereo Kidd's Ness, Aklo's Link(twice), and Cipher's Diddy who beat DJ nintendo. Ask any DK main, and you will learn that is NOT an easy bracket matchup-wise for DK. I honestly was scared ****less when I found out I was playing Animal. Here was the conversation between Boiko and I lmao
"Who am I playing next?"
"Animal"
"F***"

So yeah, in a player sense, I got dodged lots of bullets from the upsets. But In a character sense, I got pretty unlucky.

Highly understandable. Also, that glitch needs to be removed LOL. C'mon PMDT...Looked like Smash 4 with that random huffing and puffing cloud.

 

[Strong Badam]

wtf is that glitch lmao

 

[Akhenderson]

wtf is that glitch lmao

It truly is Dankey Kang.
On a side note, Ness comes close to about even match ups against Wolf and Diddy. Ness is kind of at a similar level to Young Link from Melee where he's generally regarded as blegh, except for a few high tier match ups where he can go kinda even.

Ness has so many issues with recovery that it's almost insane how hard he has to try compared to the rest of the cast when it comes to doing things that are similar to other characters. PKT2 is one of the most difficult to consistently sweet spot the ledge and incredibly slow when landing while Fox essentially has the same thing, is easier to control and guarantees to be able to act when he lands on stage due to his landing lag being only 6 frames. (It's also broken in that Ness can't sweet spot backwards due to a recovery nerf that didn't even make sense to add in the first place.)

 

[Beorn]

I love how the comentators were like "Strong bad, if you're watching this please help"

 

[Boiko]

@ POOB can confirm conversation.

@ Akhenderson we need bug patch plz. ;-;

 

[The_NZA]

I think Seagull Joe has the matchup for Ness v. Diddy right. Its probably either 50-50 or 45-55, on account of how well Diddy edge guards Ness and generally outperforms him in neutral. DIddy also has good OOS options so I kind of don't see hi losing in neutral that badly.

Its basically a very stage dependent matchup.

As for Ness v. Wolf...I'm undecided. Wolf's neutral doesn't seem as bad for Ness as Fox/Falco. But I also don't understand why everyone assumes Wolf is top 3 characters in the game. I see him as by far the worst spacie.

He doesn't have the lead in to kill moves like Fox/Falco (jab fsmash/usmash), he doesn't have a comeback mechanic like fox's shine or falco's dair, he has an insane combo game--true, but so do fox/falco with their speed and hit trajectories respectively. His neutral game is definitely not as good as theirs (with a clankeable laser and okay speed, although his laser is much better than it used to be). Finally, his recovery is barely better than Falco's.

His shine being crouch cancellable and also not as safe in conjunction with his aerials as fox/falco means his pressure isn't as guaranteed.

Maybe the full exploration of his energems setups will change my mind as its a pretty potent tool that, when optimized, will be truly terrifying. But you can say the same things about the tool kits Lucario has, or Snake, or any of the other upper mids and high tiers we have been discussing.

 

[Zoa]

Ended up attending my first weekly thing just up the road with five of my practice partners. Made it up loser's finals and got bopped by a Bowser user. The irony? I didn't grab enough and got grabbed a lot.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ended up attending my first weekly thing just up the road with five of my practice partners. Made it up loser's finals and got bopped by a Bowser user. The irony? I didn't grab enough and got grabbed a lot.

When Bowser's at the range where he can hit you with a dash grab/dash attack, spotdodge is usually a pretty safe option unless he's got a read on you.

 

[Soft Serve]

I think Seagull Joe has the matchup for Ness v. Diddy right. Its probably either 50-50 or 45-55, on account of how well Diddy edge guards Ness and generally outperforms him in neutral. DIddy also has good OOS options so I kind of don't see hi losing in neutral that badly.

Its basically a very stage dependent matchup.

As for Ness v. Wolf...I'm undecided. Wolf's neutral doesn't seem as bad for Ness as Fox/Falco. But I also don't understand why everyone assumes Wolf is top 3 characters in the game. I see him as by far the worst spacie.

He doesn't have the lead in to kill moves like Fox/Falco (jab fsmash/usmash), he doesn't have a comeback mechanic like fox's shine or falco's dair, he has an insane combo game--true, but so do fox/falco with their speed and hit trajectories respectively. His neutral game is definitely not as good as theirs (with a clankeable laser and okay speed, although his laser is much better than it used to be). Finally, his recovery is barely better than Falco's.

His shine being crouch cancellable and also not as safe in conjunction with his aerials as fox/falco means his pressure isn't as guaranteed.

Maybe the full exploration of his energems setups will change my mind as its a pretty potent tool that, when optimized, will be truly terrifying. But you can say the same things about the tool kits Lucario has, or Snake, or any of the other upper mids and high tiers we have been discussing.

Everything here about wolf isnt that accurate, other than cc and asdi down on shine being a thing. His entire kit leads into side b kills, that's both his reliable kill setup and his comeback tool, just like other combo heavy characters have.
while his approaching game isn't as strong as the other spacies (due to the blaster changes), the same blaster changes made his neutral very strong and non commital. He puts out hitboxes that he can convert off of easy, taking free stage control/presence while not commiting to anything but the jump and Waveland. It's flexible movement while putting out a combo starting projectile, and while it's clankable, it being clankable forces a response to the opponent and also clank other peojectiles, most often leaving wolf at advantage because he can just wl forward and use the space he just took from them for almost free.
he doesn't have a good approaching aerial like the other spacies have, because nair is multi hit it has no priority and doesn't trade well. Other than that his neutral game is fantastic.
His pressure is just as good if not better than the other spacies. If they shield the nair, it's guarenteed to be a shine unless thry have a frame 1 up b hitbox (it'll trade) or invincibility on frame 1 of an up b, because nair is -1 on shield due to its landing hitbox. Dair is -3 on shield when done perfectly, so that's not bad at all (fox's dair is -8 iirc). He has the same double shine/shine grab game as the other spacies, but he converts stronger off of grabs than falco does, more reliably than fox does, but like Falco he can still convert off shine grab if the shine hits and grab whiffs. The only thing his pressure lacks is a move other than blaster to really force them to shield you.

Combo wise he is still very very undeveloped, but even there's no reason even at this point in his meta for top players to not take stocks in 1-2 conversions. It's a very very silly combo game that works on the whole cast.

His recovery is also leagues above falcos, no charge time (only 5 frames), good hitbox, side b has 3 angles to choose from for even more mixups. Fox has him beat in sheer distance but in difficulty to edge guard wolf's is on par with fox if not the best out of the spacies.

The difference between wolf and lucario/snake is that he is both mobile and has a projectile that nearly plays neutral for him. It's not a fair comparison, because a combo game like snakes is all tech chased based and resets and proper setup, while wolf's is incredibly explosive at any time.

Wolf is crazy, the only thing that could potentially make him not the best spacie is the fact most characters still don't have a response to proper dd and nair shine from fox.

 

[Zoa]

It's more like I don't know jack about the Bowser MU despite having a crazy combo character. Bowser's always been my Achilles' heel. I don't respect his reach enough, and put too much towards his CC and armor. When I do respect his reach I **** up big time. That's what I get for not learning the MU. lol

 

[steelguttey]

i remember playing a netplay game where i was counterpicking and i tried to get yoshis with olimar cus i liked the low ceilings against bowser

hahahha

ha
kill me

 

[TreK]

Was the DK glitch srsly never reported ? I'm pretty sure I've known it day 1 thanks to the skype group lol

 

[Boiko]

I think Seagull Joe has the matchup for Ness v. Diddy right. Its probably either 50-50 or 45-55, on account of how well Diddy edge guards Ness and generally outperforms him in neutral. DIddy also has good OOS options so I kind of don't see hi losing in neutral that badly.

Its basically a very stage dependent matchup.

Seagull said 60-40 or 55-45, both of which I could get behind but more so 60-40. Diddy is the perfect combo weight for Ness at 0%. You have tons of options after securing a grab, whether it be chain grabbing or uair strings, or a bit of both. You can eventually combo that into a bair/nair to put Diddy off stage where he is stupidly easy to edge guard. Diddy has a pretty hard time sweet spotting, so if he goes for ledge, an ftilt or yoyo drop pretty much seals the deal. Diddy's neutral game can also be seriously hindered by an opponent who has good item control. I don't think he has a much easier time edge guarding Ness than any other character. He's just a solid all around character, with a ton of tools, but Ness just punishes him way too hard off of a grab, and forcing your opponent into shield/baiting OoS options where he can get a grab, is Ness' bread and butter.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Was the DK glitch srsly never reported ? I'm pretty sure I've known it day 1 thanks to the skype group lol

http://smashboards.com/threads/3-5-dk-visual-bug.378071/

Reported in the first week of 3.5
Thread is in need of an update though.

Details, if anyone knows what causes it - how to reproduce., the link to the video would be good.

 

[Frost | Odds]

No bias here. Nope, none at all.

http://pastebin.com/98c8a7ej

 

[GabPR]

No bias here. Nope, none at all.

http://pastebin.com/98c8a7ej

When I saw that bowser beat sonic 65:35 I just... nothing.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's just a guess really, because there's no local sonics anywhere near as good as my Sonic (which isn't saying much) -- so I just had to theorycraft.

Sonic has a really hard time against chars that can trade well/consistently with him. Bowser's actually pretty good at that, particularly against chars with short range and/or bad grabs. IMO most of sonic's (like Bowser's) perceived strength is basically because people are inexperienced with/don't understand the matchup- I can't imagine any way that a Sonic would be able to really get in on my Bowser, so 65:35 is my best guess. :<

 

[GabPR]

It's just a guess really, because there's no local sonics anywhere near as good as my Sonic (which isn't saying much) -- so I just had to theorycraft.

Sonic has a really hard time against chars that can trade well/consistently with him. Bowser's actually pretty good at that, particularly against chars with short range and/or bad grabs. IMO most of sonic's (like Bowser's) perceived strength is basically because people are inexperienced with/don't understand the matchup- I can't imagine any way that a Sonic would be able to really get in on my Bowser, so 65:35 is my best guess. :<

Dash dancing and wiffing out attacks. Bowser has relatively slow moves besides nair, up b and tilts, and they all render them vulnerable for a grab. If sonic can grab link taking out a bomb from the other edge of FD, bowser would have to really be carefull on how he throws his attacks. And while sonic has a bad standing grab range, his running momentum increases it considerably.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Theoretically, sort of - but a good bowser won't commit to any of that garbage without a good reason. I don't think he really needs to approach sonic, because he shouldn't ever really be behind, and sonic has no means of forcing approaches other than by getting a lead.

Here I am, arguing that Bowser wins a matchup. what is this world coming to

 

[GabPR]

Theoretically, sort of - but a good bowser won't commit to any of that garbage without a good reason. I don't think he really needs to approach sonic, because he shouldn't ever really be behind, and sonic has no means of forcing approaches other than by getting a lead.

Here I am, arguing that Bowser wins a matchup. what is this world coming to

With Sonics kit and speed being in mid or even mid to long range can pressure opponents enough to try and approach. A good Sonic can take advantage of this and potentialy react to evade or counter attack most of bowsers options. But like yourself I am also therory crafting since I have yet to play a high level Bowser.

 

[Player -0]

Can't Sonic dash dance and then approach with shield or grab and stuff?

Most of the time Bowser will be ready to space with an attack, in which case WD OoS or Fair OoS

 

[Frost | Odds]

Sonic can't punish Bowser's jab on reaction. This is .. problematic for him.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Sonic can't punish Bowser's jab on reaction. This is .. problematic for him.

Pretty sure that goes for most of the cast's jabs, on reaction.