Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

ROB is fine he's bad.

In my state, ROB is 7-10 on the tier list.
Lol

 

[jtm94]

It is true that GnW UpB is frame 1, but if he comes from below you that is reactable. GnW dair is disjointed but not as significant as Link's dair is. Mario UpB is a very good escape tool as well because invincibility, but I guess he can't act out of it. I would think it more significant if GnW was actually good in the air where his UpB places him, or if he had a weight that wasn't so easy to combo. Also you can DI GnW's uair to get away from him, his aerial mobility isn't high enough to catch good DI.

Zelda's Love Jump is bad because it leaves her in the air. She is absolutely terrible in the air, it merely delays the inevitable. Teleport has been around though. The hitbox isn't significant to escape a juggle, I'd rather nair or Nayru's than try to hit with the teleport hitbox, and Nayru's has no hitboxes above or below it.

 

[B.W.]

Please explain how their desynchs have changed significantly for the worse.

It's not their desyncs that have changed, it's that desyncing is not as powerful a technique as it was in Melee.

It can still do the same stuff. Using one Climber to cover the other while they start the real ****. But in Melee (and even Brawl) the "real ****" was usually getting something going with a grab. But their throw-release points are off right now. Fixing that might even give them some of their oomph back.

But in Melee and Brawl ICs were good because their grabs were amazing. They were basically the grapple character of Smash. And now their infinites have been stripped from them (as they should be) but they haven't really received much in return.

 

[KayB]

Not to mention Melee was a more ground-based game then PM, which is the kind of environment ICs thrived in. Not only is PM less ground based, but many characters have strong projectiles, far-reaching/disjointed hitboxes, moves that are able to separate the ICs quite well (ex. M2's Nair, Snake's explosives, Diddy's Bananas, Lucas' pressure + nair, Tink's bombs, Wolf's shine, etc), adn moves that are great for keeping ground based opponents away (ex. Diddy's bananas, G&W d-tilt, Ness' PK fire, etc.). A lot of moves also send ICs in the air, which is a position that they're notoriously bad in.

 

[Rᴏb]

Are we really talking about G&W's upb? Please let him have something good.

 

[Deleted member]

No, GnW can share the pain of toonlink. Together, alone in a dark room... they cuddle for warmth because the pmbr won't give them any. Poor, cold gnw/tl

 

[Rᴏb]

No, GnW can share the pain of toonlink. Together, alone in a dark room... they cuddle for warmth because the pmbr won't give them any. Poor, cold gnw/tl

At least TLink has projectiles that are actually good and not based on rng. That alone is amazing. **** TL.

 

[Zx2963]

If Sonics up b and down b are nerfed, he'd suck pretty bad so I'm assuming other aspects if him would be buffed right?

 

[Tagxy]

Getting caught above the opponent has traditionally been bad in every smash game so it seems odd for it to pop up in PM. Is it character specific features?

 

[Player -0]

Sonic would still be pretty solid without his Down-B and Up B I think. Losing his Up-B would hurt him a lot more than his Down B though.

 

[shairn]

Are we really talking about G&W's upb? Please let him have something good.

Because upB is the only good thing G&W has right
All I'm talking about is making it less dumb and autocombo-y.

 

[Ripple]

Dakpo could up throw up-b my DDD until 170 and still get a Nair off with it. It was really dumb.

 

[Player -0]

Could? Does that mean he no longer can? G&W nerfs confirmed?

 

[victinivcreate1]

PM has too many auto combos. Remove those. Then the real fun begins lol.

And by auto combo I mean
High percents Sonic up throw, DI up you get uaired, DI away/behind you get naired.
Mewtwo's Hover nair into TP aerial followup.
GW's aformentioned bs up b nair
Lucas' free everything

 

[Circle_Breaker]

yeah we need to remove any guaranteed punishes *rolls eyes*

 

[Zx2963]

PM has too many auto combos. Remove those. Then the real fun begins lol.

And by auto combo I mean
High percents Sonic up throw, DI up you get uaired, DI away/behind you get naired.
Mewtwo's Hover nair into TP aerial followup.
GW's aformentioned bs up b nair
Lucas' free everything

In Melee characters had a lot of auto combos (dthrow > knee) (uthrow > utilt > utilt) etc

 

[jtm94]

GnW autocombos, this thread is at a new all time low.

Sonic's uair is strictly stronger than Fox's upsmash and uair.

 

[Phan7om]

Autocombos are a very large problem in PM considering there are so many. Auto combos at lower %s that are 2/3 hits or less are fine, the real problem are the ones that kill. It would be fine if they could still combo but not autocombo. Everyone doesnt need a Melee Sheik Dthrow > Fair or a Fox Jab > Usmash... if you get what im saying. Also the overall mindlessness of this game needs to be toned down but taking care of recoveries and autocombos are a start.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

In Melee characters had a lot of auto combos (dthrow > knee) (uthrow > utilt > utilt) etc

While I do agree, I must say that autocombos should have a maximum per character... maybe 3?

 

[PsionicSabreur]

What you all are describing as an autocombo is just a confirm into a finisher, most likely one that you happened to get hit by a lot.
Most of the time an "autocombo" adds up to little more than one good setup move that offers the frame advantage and positioning to lead into <insert objectionable finisher>, or any other quicker option, for that matter. In other words, it's just a combo.

If you want to make things less mindless, focus on discussing whether or not it is possible to prevent the character in question from forcing you into that setup in the first place. At the very least, talk about decreasing the percentage, positioning, or frame windows rather than just removing all combo setups and finishers in the name of mental diffuculty.

 

[Oracle]

yeah i hate autocombos! pmbr must make this game more like melee so remove these
- drillshine
- dthrow knee
- marth fthrow regrab at 0
- ganon dthrow to whatever?!?!?!? SO BROOOKEN
- ice climbers grab to smash attack
- peach uthrow cg on fastfallers

also did the pmbr really become the pmdt just because i called them the project m buff room that one time?

 

[Zx2963]

GnW autocombos, this thread is at a new all time low.

Sonic's uair is strictly stronger than Fox's upsmash and uair.

What? Really? I never get a kill with that below 80%. Mewtwo has the worst autocombos though...

 

[drsusredfish]

some of these "auto combo" problems can probably be solved with more DI options given by the move or performed the player.

What i mean by this is most people tend to DI 3 directions with every move. those being the no DI DI, the most extreme left/right DI and most extreme up/down DI. If you Di the same way you get hit by the same combo thus auto combo.
Maybe players can try more diagonal directions for DI to make follow ups more difficult. This won't solve every case but it isn't intrusive to the game.

The other thing that could be done is specifically change how much a move allows the player to DI. This would defiantly fix auto combos as we know them but then it'd be an extremely different game. Sheik got this kind of treatment where the opponent has more DI options out of her grabs which has many more options for the opponent to choose.

 

[menotyou135]

Sonic really needs his down b nerfed slightly but his other options buffed. He should have a really good dash dance ground game, but he doesn't because his grounded attacks are almost useless. He essentially get's a bunch of **** moves and one super good move. That is not a good way to design a character

If they buffed his DD options and nerfed his Down B options, non sonic players and sonic players would both benefit. Sonic would be a better character overall, but he wouldn't be just stupid to go against.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Sonic really needs his down b nerfed slightly but his other options buffed. He should have a really good dash dance ground game, but he doesn't because his grounded attacks are almost useless. He essentially get's a bunch of **** moves and one super good move. That is not a good way to design a character

If they buffed his DD options and nerfed his Down B options, non sonic players and sonic players would both benefit. Sonic would be a better character overall, but he wouldn't be just stupid to go against.

His dash dance is pretty good, his moonwalk is by far the best, he has a decent WD, and other stuff. Sonic's problem is really not his down B, its just the fact that he gets so many follow ups from it and any other given move. Up throw is basically a DI trap, no matter how you DI it at high percents you're eating a follow up. Homing Attack into X follow up is kinda free. And Sonic has more that i haven't mentioned.

 

[victinivcreate1]

What? Really? I never get a kill with that below 80%. Mewtwo has the worst autocombos though...

You're a Sonic main and you say Mewtwo has the worst auto combos lol. Mewtwo has the most jank combo extenders but all of his combos can be avoided via good DI.


@ Oracle You can try to be slick, but dthrow knee isn't a DI trap like say Sonic's up throw aerial follow up. Drillshine loses to SDI a lot.

The Ganondorf cg is not that big a deal since Ganon is kinda sucky and his grab is even worse lol.

FFers deserve to be comboed. Lol.

 

[menotyou135]

His dash dance is pretty good, his moonwalk is by far the best, he has a decent WD, and other stuff. Sonic's problem is really not his down B, its just the fact that he gets so many follow ups from it and any other given move. Up throw is basically a DI trap, no matter how you DI it at high percents you're eating a follow up. Homing Attack into X follow up is kinda free. And Sonic has more that i haven't mentioned.

I agree, but regardless, that move is overtly good, while his other moves don't have the same utility. If that move (and to a lesser extent, the homing attack) are adjusted to not flow as well into other moves, while his non-b moves are made to follow into each other more, he would just have a much less annoying, but also superior game.

 

[jtm94]

Mario's fair is just as strong as Bowser fsmash, but Bowser's sends at the sakurai angle. Such balance.

Sonic uair BKB/KBG is 35/125 with 0.9x SDI modifiers
Fox uair is 40/116 with 1.0x SDI modifiers
Fox Upsmash is is 30/112

No wonder Sheik's fair feels weak, actually her fair, bair, and nair are all 0/100.
Mario's bair is 20/100 at the strong hitbox.
His strong fair is 50/100.

Frame data is scary.

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo could up throw up-b my DDD until 170 and still get a Nair off with it. It was really dumb.

False? either way, at 170 it should be easy to SDI

 

[jtm94]

False? either way, at 170 it should be easy to SDI

But it's too fast to SDI Dakpo senpai.

 

[Zx2963]

You're a Sonic main and you say Mewtwo has the worst auto combos lol. Mewtwo has the most jank combo extenders but all of his combos can be avoided via good DI.

I probably should change that, I play him much less because of all the Sonic salt . Though considering Mewtwo can multiple uair/utilt anything, and has his own wall of death which is close to impossible to DI out of, he makes Sonic seem tame. I also dislike the down b's all-around power, but Mewtwo is broken compared to Sonic.

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo could up throw up-b my DDD until 170 and still get a Nair off with it. It was really dumb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMb4SItetKM

 

[Ripple]

I didn't say you could literally do it. GOSH!

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mario's fair is just as strong as Bowser fsmash, but Bowser's sends at the sakurai angle. Such balance.

Sonic uair BKB/KBG is 35/125 with 0.9x SDI modifiers
Fox uair is 40/116 with 1.0x SDI modifiers
Fox Upsmash is is 30/112

No wonder Sheik's fair feels weak, actually her fair, bair, and nair are all 0/100.
Mario's bair is 20/100 at the strong hitbox.
His strong fair is 50/100.

Frame data is scary.

Are you aware that hitbox damage acts as a multiplier at one point in the knockback formula? Looking at knockback values alone is not accurate AT ALL lol. ROB's upair has 12/174 BKB/KBG. Each hit only does 6-9 damage depending on if you boost and where you hit. Boosting it increases the damage by 2 (from 6 or 7 to 8 or 9) but increases knockback dramatically. But in general it's not a kill move until it's boosted into around like 120-140%, from somewhere near the center of an average stage, with good DI. The damage value of a hitbox has a direct effect on knockback outside of how it changes the opponent's percent, and because of this low damage moves can have higher knockback values but way lower resultant knockbacks.

 

[jtm94]

This changes things, but doesn't affect that some of these things are obscene because Mario's fair does 18% yeah?
Where does the damage of the hitbox get multiplied though? I had a bit of free time and started looking into a lot of frame data.

I just play the game, there's no requirement to know how it works.

 

[steelguttey]

im so glad were talking about autocombos and nobody is realizing olimar's bull**** down-throw to 3-4 usmashes at 0 percent

please dont nerf my character

 

[DMG]

I will specifically write down anything lame about Olimar, and super Fax it to the PMBR. That's the last character on Earth, sans IC's, that we want to be "good"

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Balancing after personal sympathy with the character's design: You joke, but thats what it would be if for example Link gets nerfed (or Zelda)

 

[Ripple]

% has nothing to do with SDI dakpo

 

[Dakpo]

% has nothing to do with SDI dakpo

Actually, SDI is made more effective when you get sent farther BECAUSE of your %. SDI+normal knock-back