Tier List Speculation

[Circle_Breaker]

If they nerf sonic's recovery I am totally gonna be butthurt and quit playing why does everyone keep whining about recoveries seriously I'm benefitting from how good it is pls shut up

 

[Ryu_Ken]

This might sound dumb, but how about using Roy's Counter against projectiles?
Other than that, I got nothing.

 

[Rᴏb]

just use fair, dude

 

[CyberZixx]

Bascially what Yursaman said. Fair is your best bet, it is all about using Fair and your solid movement to close in the opponent and get withen there space where they can no longer use projectiles.

 

[DMG]

Uh, have you guys *seen* PM projectiles? As in, people toss them out and then start to move/use more? Clanking becomes much less viable the slower your character is, and as more time passes since the projectile was thrown out. It doesn't help that doing Fair would keep Roy's sword swing, cooldown, and probable landing lag. Clanking on the ground with a tilt or jab for slower characters is better since you can get the grounded clank "reset" of your animation (which is 95% faster than finishing your animations and having lag on most chars). Or running up and PSing is probably better than semi laggy aerial choices.

Roy gets bogged down by stuff like that. You can't always rush down in a manner that Mario can't safely get out a double fireball, and clanking with the first with Fair probably doesn't do you that much good. Ask Sethlon if you want: he had a very tough set with a solid Mario player of ours this weekend (as in either player could have legit won the set, was already 1-1 and Game 3 was super close) and I don't think he'd mind explaining why Fair is probably one of Roy's weaker options for handling it.

 

[MLGF]

If they nerf sonic's recovery I am totally gonna be butthurt and quit playing why does everyone keep whining about recoveries seriously I'm benefitting from how good it is pls shut up

Hah hah. No but really, Sonic doesn't need a bull**** recovery along with his other bull****.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Sonic is already hard to control as it is. Don't need to make it worse.

 

[CyberZixx]

That does make sense. I have not seen nor played much Roy vs Mario. I can see how fair would just help the Mario in locked Roy down cause it is a commitment. Standing ground with jabs and ftitls is not good when you have positional disadvantage either. I would be curious to see that set you mentioned.

 

[MLGF]

But really, Sonic doesn't need a bull**** recovery along with his other bull****.

Sonic is already hard to control as it is. Don't need to make it worse.

Oh yes, his pressing Neutral B over and over again to recover from the entire end of the stage is so hard to control.

 

[Mr.Random]

I feel Sonic is one of the harder characters to balance. I've been talking with Wizzy and he already knows Sonic is getting nerfed.

 

[Deleted member]

i don't see how a lot of characters are supposed to fight mario, of which roy is merely one of many.

 

[didds]

let your tears put out his fireballs

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Oh yes, his pressing Neutral B over and over again to recover from the entire end of the stage is so hard to control.

I meant onstage, not offstage. I think his recovery is ok to say the least.

 

[Rᴏb]

I guess it really depends on the projectile. I definitely see how Mario's fireballs and Link's boomerang are not easily swatted with fair, but bacon is another story.

@Sethlon, what do you think Roy's best options are for handling projectiles?

 

[DMG]

I would be curious to see that set you mentioned.

Don't think it was recorded. Not many people got to watch it, the setup was tucked further back in the room in a semi corner. Was very impressive, Sethlon was actually down at least a full stock in Game 3 and brought it all back. Fireballs dictated a lot of that MU

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Is there any particular reason the range of homing attack can't be reduced significantly so that it isn't a viable recovery option? The rest of Sonic is fine.

 

[DMG]

Homing Attack? What about the Super-Spinny-Jump-Thingy-I-Don't-Play-Sonic thing? He might as well be gliding back

 

[Deleted member]

fireballs do god damn everything for mario

 

[DMG]

They do a lot more than heat up his soup, that's for sure

 

[Circle_Breaker]

how is sonic getting nerfed? after i said i would quit if sonic gets nerfed i realized i wasn't joking. his recovery is too good but he better not get strict nerfs.


...my main! panic setting in. i could quit now and forever and study harder instead....

 

[Deleted member]

how is sonic getting nerfed? after i said i would quit if sonic gets nerfed i realized i wasn't joking. his recovery is too good but he better not get strict nerfs.


...my main! panic setting in. i could quit now and forever and study harder instead....

what can we say, the rest of the cast really is too slow.

 

[trash?]

I like how well my guess of "there will never be a point in time where sonic doesn't get huge changes between versions" I made after wizzy ruined days in 2.5 has gone so far

 

[Circle_Breaker]

It'd be peachy if they killed his neutral b as a recovery tool and gave him a legit fair spike in return. I dunno how they could nerf his recovery without hurting his on-stage mobility which is the only thing going for the poor guy.

Basically **** the pmbr I hate this game for making me learn new things frequently, that isn't why I play videogames -_-
(joking, pls)

 

[mimgrim]

How is on stage mobility the only thing going for Sonic? How? He def has good things other then just on stage mobility. >_>

Very good recovery, good combo game, good off stage, good at killing.

How is he a poor guy exactly?

 

[Deleted member]

Very good recovery, good combo game, good off stage, good at killing.

How is he a poor guy exactly?

he needs mario fireballs.

and a z tether.

and a shine.

 

[Bleck]

Sorry Bleck, I planned on responding to your post yesterday, but I procrastinated quite a bit unfortunately.

No worries.

Anyway, that's an interesting opinion, though I think 6 frames is a bit much. I feel like 3 or 4 would be a good middle ground to consider.

I agree.

Now if I had to pick one of your proposed options, I'd go with the more offensive approach. Reason being is that if you make shine into a wholly defensive move, you give fox more of an incentive to play a campy, kinda passive aggressive game against you.

I don't think that's necessarily true - Fox' strengths in other areas don't lend themselves entirely well to that kind of playstyle (while the laser is a strong camping tool, his strength is arguably still in his fantastic normals and aerials).

Consider also that using the shine to force an advancing opponent back into a neutral position is something that Fox is very well already capable of doing, but better because using it defensively immediately leads into offensive options - the shine being as fast as it is lets you force an attacking opponent back a fixed distance into a neutral position, but it being jump-cancelable means that you can immediately take advantage of that action and lead it into a combo (or more shines).

Because of it being un jump cancelable, fox isn't going to risk getting close to you unless he has to, because of how hard everyone combos him, and the fact he has to commit to his shine. With the offensive version however, he is encouraged to, if he uses it correctly, to go in despite the ever present danger of getting his fall speed abused.

This is true, yes - but I think the thing here is that Fox having a significant weakness is not necessarily a bad thing. Fox should have to play his approach intelligently to get the most out of his strengths, and his speed and falling speed working to his disadvantage should be something that players have to accommodate to get the most out of the character. I don't believe that it should be easy to 0-death Fox if he messes up, but being fragile should be a trade-off to how fast and powerful he is.

Because in that scenario, even though he has to be more careful with it since it's slower, he should still be able to pressure shields and get a good setup for a string, possibly converting to a kill.

I think Fox' ability to pressure shields should come from sources other than the shine - pressure should be a compression of the shielding player's options, not the outright removal of them. With the existence of wavedashing in mind, shine pressuring a shield perfectly with Fox essentially means that the shielding player is being punished for shielding, which shouldn't really be the case.

Basically it allows fox to keep the same style of play, but forces him to be more thoughtful in his application of his shine, as opposed to him just handing you a pair of sunglasses because of the excessive amounts of blue hexagons on the screen.

Like I said, I think Fox' style of play should be enforced through options that are more clearly communicated and more fluidly communicated to opposing players than the shine. An opposing player should have a correct path of resistance to take in a defensive position - as opposed to now, where your only hope against, defensively, against a shining Fox (or Falco or Wolf, for that matter) is to hope that they make a mistake that you can exploit. There should never be a point in a fighting game where there's nothing you can do.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

How is on stage mobility the only thing going for Sonic? How? He def has good things other then just on stage mobility. >_>

Very good recovery, good combo game, good off stage, good at killing.

How is he a poor guy exactly?

You're absolutely right, I was being senseless. After thinking more carefully I would propose the following nerfs.

> less horizontal air mobility for sidespin
> less horizontal distance for untargeted homing shot/blast attack
> less damage on charge spin, after release

And the following buffs.

>2x volume on taunts
>fair spikes (seriously though)
>shine, falco lasers, hover, z-tether

 

[Mr.Random]

I wonder. Did they use the idea of roller skates to increase Ganon's mobility?

 

[Phan7om]

Homing attack would be fine for recovery if maybe the lag on a missed HA was increased. And the super sonic spin jump thingy i think is fine if he cant do any other specials out of it, but thats probably hell to program.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm telling you it's a swump-jancelled Down-B

Plz PMBR make my dreams come true

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Cash-attack dancelled Sup-Mash

 

[Zx2963]

Why don't they nerf Sonic and add in Super Sonic to balance it?

 

[Phan7om]

Change his kill scream (idk what you call it, but when you are hit at high %s and your character makes a noise) into the sound effect of his rings coming out of him.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

What sonic needs is that Ring Dash technique from Sonic Adventure DX as his Side B. Could make things interesting if its well integrated into his meta.

 

[Giygacoal]

Mario makes Lucario sad.

 

[Zx2963]

What sonic needs is that Ring Dash technique from Sonic Adventure DX as his Side B. Could make things interesting if its well integrated into his meta.

Would be better then having 2 ball specials

Mario makes Lucario sad.

Mewtwo makes it even more sad, I always enjoy punishing Spirit Bombs and comboing an opponent into them

 

[EmptySky00]

Mario makes everyone sad.

Or homicidal. Whichever way you swing, I won't judge. /Umbreon

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Mario don't make mah squirtle sad tho kappa

 

[Giygacoal]

Mewtwo makes it even more sad, I always enjoy punishing Spirit Bombs and comboing an opponent into them

SB is supposed to be used sparingly, especially against Mewtwo. Unfortunately most Lucario players are too bomb-happy.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Mewtwo use Reflect! The foe protected itself!
Lucario used Spirit Bomb! Mewtwo protected itself! Lucario takes 25 damage! Lucario fainted....