mimgrim
Smash Hero
I have yet to see any of that actually happen.
0-death is solely a lab thing and rarely happens in actual practice.
"Lab" stuff means absolute shtako to me until I see it put into practice.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
0-death is solely a lab thing and rarely happens in actual practice.
"Lab" stuff means absolute shtako to me until I see it put into practice.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Mew2King.
You know him?
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mimgrim
Smash Hero
Look at my word choice.
One person does not change anything I said.
And even with just him, it isn't super consistent and people are very inexperienced in the M2 MU which means they could have probably DI'd better.
One person does a truth not make.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I'm sorry, I just can't take it anymore. Stop ******** about Mario's recovery. If you play a character with a ZOMG BORKED RECOVERY!!!PM!!1 and you park your ass onstage instead of going out to intercept Mario's slow as ****, perfectly interceptable Down-B, then that's entirely on you. The distances he can cover mean jack if you never let him come near the stage/make him eat a chunk of damage every time he tries to come back. His recovery is no worse than Snake's.
Bleck
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 27, 2010
- Messages
- 3,133
I think frame 1 is fine if the move can't be jump canceled, and if it can, it has to be at least a few frames later (Brawl had it at 6 frames, if I recall).
Consider it this way; if it can't be jump-canceled, it can only really be used defensively. If it can be jump-canceled, but the hitbox comes out later, then it can't be used defensively, 'cause it won't reliably outspeed every other move in the game, forcing people to only use it for offensive purposes. However, losing that speed may also mean that it's just plain not as reliable as a way to setup omnidirectionally, while also sacrificing the defensive aspect.
I think the only reasonable course of action regarding Fox' reflector would be to make it so you can no longer jump-cancel it. (But that'll never happen, 'cause muh melee)
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Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Who in the world is using down b close enough to the stage for you to punish lol. A smart mario would be using that first in his recovery, then fireballs, and then he'd have his choice between his cape, a double jump, an immediate up b, up b wall jump, regular wall jump into whatever, and so on and so forth. Snake's and mario's recovery are not in the slightest comparable.
And Bleck I'll comment on your post in a sec, I'll need a moment to collect my thoughts.
And Bleck I'll comment on your post in a sec, I'll need a moment to collect my thoughts.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Zelda is definitely the worst design. Somehow Zelda came out worse than Sonic, Ice Climbers, and Olimar, which is mind-blowing.
Mario's recovery has a down B and cape to net him extra distance, fireballs to cover it, a good combo weight to avoid combos out of the edge guard (it happens), his up b beats everything, and wall jump out of it that refreshes up b's ability to stuff out anything. some characters can deal with it, but a lot of characters just can't edge guard mario, and dat niga ALWAYS makes it back. his recovery is substantially worse than snake's.
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Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Mario is highly overrated in this game. He is very good though but not a top ten character. High tier at best. I'd trade his very good recovery for better range any day.
I was thinking they should do this for the next demo + is buff and - is nerf.
-Can no longer wall jump out of up b
-Fireballs do 6% damage or are reverted to being only slightly faster then Melee timing (2 frames instead of 7) so they are still good but not dumb.
+Up B has 70 base knockback but reduced from 140 to 100 growth to make it a better defensive option.
+Very slight range increase on normals, (not huge range buffs, small).
Mario's main problem in Melee were his kill moves were unreliable and hard to land/combo into and abysmal range.
Also the only nerfs Mewtwo needs is his weight to be decreased and a slightly less safe teleport.
Here's what I'd do.
-Weight reduced to 87, Mewtwo lives a little too long considering his recovery and safe normals.
-Can't hover out of teleport or teleport has either slightly more start up or endlag to make it less safe.
To compensate
+ Disable should be drastically faster with little to no cooldown.
+ Dair should be slightly faster (maybe by 5 frames).
I was thinking they should do this for the next demo + is buff and - is nerf.
-Can no longer wall jump out of up b
-Fireballs do 6% damage or are reverted to being only slightly faster then Melee timing (2 frames instead of 7) so they are still good but not dumb.
+Up B has 70 base knockback but reduced from 140 to 100 growth to make it a better defensive option.
+Very slight range increase on normals, (not huge range buffs, small).
Mario's main problem in Melee were his kill moves were unreliable and hard to land/combo into and abysmal range.
Also the only nerfs Mewtwo needs is his weight to be decreased and a slightly less safe teleport.
Here's what I'd do.
-Weight reduced to 87, Mewtwo lives a little too long considering his recovery and safe normals.
-Can't hover out of teleport or teleport has either slightly more start up or endlag to make it less safe.
To compensate
+ Disable should be drastically faster with little to no cooldown.
+ Dair should be slightly faster (maybe by 5 frames).
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D
Deleted member
Guest
you're either crazy or a mario player.
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Probably both but I already suggested nerfs and buffs for the dumb stuff. What do you think?
Sheik is the 5th most used character in Project M tournaments.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think mario already has enough range. basically if i was going to neuter mario i would remove his downthrow CG (and ganon's), make fireballs slower so you can't have no lag on SH fireball or FJ fireball into waveland, and probably just stop there. mario has a lot of ridiculous assets like his dair range, anything > fair combo @ 100%, some of the best edge guarding in the game, etc. but frankly i think it's cool that mario is a top tier character for once. but for all his other goodness, fireball is way too safe in general but especially for conversions, and downthrow CGs are just busted.
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Those are drastic nerfs and would change his metagame way too much.
Yeah. She's still an extremely viable character. Lots of fun to use as well.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
No, what's mind blowing is that you think that. The reason you think she is designed poorly is because of the way you personally play her, which is not the way she is optimally played, and the people you play against let you get away with that for some reason.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
plz no
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Ganon needs to be made a good enough character on his own for his DThrow CG to be removed.
D
Deleted member
Guest
right, because letting someone control the entire stage at the minimal cost of having to negotiate din's fire is definitely the optimal strategy in a game based on positioning.
0/10.
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Dins fire isn't 100% safe. If you see her throw it out it has enough start up that almost anyone can run up an either grab, smack her, bait out Nayru, or run up to her and bait out a roll. Sure if you give her enough space she can set them up but that's the player's fault, not Zelda's.
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Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
What? If anything that was the most forgiving suggestion for nerfs to mario I've ever seen. Those changes honestly wouldn't change mario too much, it would just encourage more thoughtful usage with his fireballs, and same with down throw chain grab. It just promotes more thoughtful follow ups from it. Mario would still definitely be mario, you'd just have to think a little more in your playstyle in this scenario.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Dins fire is not usually safe. I play Zhime, therefore my credibility > everyone else's on this point.
Also fox's lasers are way way way way way way way way way way way more safe.
Also fox's lasers are way way way way way way way way way way way more safe.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
yeah thats why i don't think zelda should sit back and camp all match. apparently all of the zelda players disagree with me.
Sour Supreme
サイマグネット
It's been 100 pages, Tier List Spec.
Why have I returned?
Why have I returned?
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
This.
He'd have to get a pretty good buff to compensate for losing one of the best throws in the game considering his bad grab range. It doesn't even change grab most characters, just heavy weights and fast fallers which is fine. They already increased the growth on it in 2.6 so it's fine. I already suggested for fireballs either changing the timing to be only 1 or 2 frames faster or reducing their damage to 5 or six. Thing is YOU DO need to use fireballs thoughtfully and aim them correctly against the good players because they will punish you for spamming them. You can watch any high level Mario play and see that fireballs aren't spammed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suFABY-3xjg Do you see Boss spamming in this vid? NO because he isn't stupid and knows if he fireballs in the wrong place he'll get punished. Instead he aims them and then follows up when he feels it is safe.
Another difference.
Here are two high/top level players. These are the type of videos the PMBR should be watching for the metagame and should determine whether or not something should get nerfed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fml_xxCmMWk
Now here we have two mid level players. You'll see a huge difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k_W2ngusAI
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Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Double post sorry.
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I dont like zelda's design either, she feels so safe which is completely the opposite of her melee self. Id like to see zelda more akin to her previous design where she was a high risk high reward character, only more reward to bring her to the viability standards of melee
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Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
- Messages
- 4,290
- NNID
- hinichii
- 3DS FC
- 2423-5382-7542
Could be cool
But that's why it wont happen
But that's why it wont happen
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Mario in this game still loses to Falco, Fox, Captain Falcon, Marth (Worse MU), and Sheik while also having issues with Mewtwo, Ivysaur, and Roy. These characters keep Mario from being amazing and put him in the very good section instead.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
This is so stupid. First of all, Zelda's "high risk" strategy in Melee amounted to "spam Lightning Kicks." You know, she can do the exact same thing in PM if you so wish. You won't get far though because that strategy sucks. Always has and always will. She is not the opposite of her Melee self because she can do everything she could do before (which wasn't much) and more. Second of all, Zelda is a defensive character. Defensive characters do not lend themselves to typical high risk/high reward playstyles. You have dozens of other more offensive characters to choose from, so stop trying to take a defensive character and shove her into your preferred role.
Yeesh, people are such whiny airheads when it comes to Zelda. At this point I'm hoping she stays the same just to spite you all.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
It's almost as much fun to watch people freak out and complain as it is to see all the cool new content. Almost.
Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
You know, as a Sonic player, I can identify with this sentiment and will shut up about Zelda in the future.Yeesh, people are such whiny airheads when it comes to Zelda. At this point I'm hoping she stays the same just to spite you all.
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
- Joined
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- NNID
- hinichii
- 3DS FC
- 2423-5382-7542
Zelda brain dead at the low/mid level
D
Deleted member
Guest
It's a good thing this game wasn't designed/balanced around the low/mid level.
Ryu_Ken
Ace Adventurer and Truth Seeker
Well duh! Everyone basically got buffed and some of them could have potential for being extremely OP. Take Lucas for example. His tilts and aerials are ridiculous at both low & high%, making for long, damaging combos and some easy zero-death ones as well. Coming from maining him in brawl, this guy definitely sticks out.
PsionicSabreur
Smash Journeyman
I'll steer clear of the talk on Zelda's quality of design, but I'd like to bring up that good defensive attributes don't always amount to a defensive playstyle (we've already seen this before with Peach). Zelda is also gifted with simple, strong shield pressure in the form of Din's, fsmash, and lightning kicks, which, combined with their flexible coverage behind Zelda, are good tools for forcing the opponent to concede stage control (otherwise known as a good approach). Additionally Din's can cover tech/recovery options, and Farore's extends chases and pressure situations. Dashdancing is a comparatively poor spacing tool until Zelda commits to an approach with dash attack, at which point it is an excellent option for picking up an opponent trying to escape pressure. Her slower grab, while unsuited for scooping up attackers, has good range for picking up tech rolls, and has a huge damage payout with 4% pummels and 15% dthrow alone, disregarding DI mixups into lightning kick. Although the Din's combos are cool and all, the real substance of Zelda's combo game consists of looking for practical, consistent setups into two of the best KO moves in the game (lightning kick and lightning kick, respectively). With the exception of usmash on a few fast-fallers, most of Zelda's defensive options fail to achieve this.This is so stupid. First of all, Zelda's "high risk" strategy in Melee amounted to "spam Lightning Kicks." You know, she can do the exact same thing in PM if you so wish. You won't get far though because that strategy sucks. Always has and always will. She is not the opposite of her Melee self because she can do everything she could do before (which wasn't much) and more. Second of all, Zelda is a defensive character. Defensive characters do not lend themselves to typical high risk/high reward playstyles. You have dozens of other more offensive characters to choose from, so stop trying to take a defensive character and shove her into your preferred role.
Yeesh, people are such whiny airheads when it comes to Zelda. At this point I'm hoping she stays the same just to spite you all.
My key point is that Zelda benefits the most (i.e. optimizes reward) when her opponent is playing defensively, not when she is, which is why it is important that Zelda's gameplan revolve around forcing her opponent to play defensively. In fact, the good defense might as well be there just to give her more chances to initiate her own offense, rather than dictate playstyle. As has been brought up before, this is why her control of the game folds to characters that are simply too quick to trap in a disadvantageous defensive position. For those matchups only, I would consider Zelda a defensive character, possibly helped along by the fact that in several of them she suddenly finds her strongest combo starter to be an OoS option.
On another note, the concept of fixating balance around some arbitrary risk/reward ratio is completely useless. Safety will always be excessively favored, because getting any hit at all, as long as it isn't punishable, is more than enough reward to win a match.
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Mr.Random
Smash Ace
To be honest a lot of characters are brain dead at low/mid level. Want a comparison
High level play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fml_xxCmMWk
^These are the videos balance SHOULD be judged on.
Mid level play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k_W2ngusAI
Big difference imo
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Eh, the chaingrab still works at high level play, though. M2K's Mario would be downthrowing that MK all over the place as well.