Tier List Speculation

[Oro?!]

Yeah OS there are twitch VODs if you would like to look at Oracles sets. I believe he only played 2 on livestream, but they were impressive.

 

[Overswarm]

Am I the only one that played Sonic and thought "Wow, this guy sucks"?

He loses literally every trade, can't do anything upon hitting your shield but try again, and has literally no approach when you are sitting on a platform that isn't telegraphed all to hell. He can punish mistakes like mad and has speed that makes it easy, but I just don't see Sonic doing anything worthwhile once people stop playing on his terms.

 

[leffen]

I'm sorry what?

First off, his shield pressure is insane.

Secondly, except for that you just described Fox/Falco lol

I would heavily advice you to play more melee and/or compare him to melee characters if you wanna see what makes sonic so good

 

[Ripple]

He loses every trade?

when I played against sethlon with DK he was winning every trade.

also, he plays like brawl in a melee game which can be very frustrating. if he is spin dashing, a lot of characters are forced into shield

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Personally, I've never had much problem with Sonic. Maybe the characters I play just have decent MUs against him, cuz my buddy who uses him is about the same skill level as me, so it's not like I'm just outplaying him all the time. He uses Sonic, Mario, and Ganon, and his Sonic is the character I tend to have the easiest time against.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm also reserving of giving praise for the blue rat at the moment. It's pretty hard to tell at this point how much of the tournament results are reflective of matchup inexperience and underdeveloped characters. I have my own thoughts on the character, but my opinion is pretty flexible and I can admit when I've been wrong (Putting Wario in high during early 2.1 for example).

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Gonna go ahead and say that I don't think anyone has had experience against a good enough Luigi to claim that he's low tier. He is easily a viable tournament character with fewer than average bad matchups. His weight makes it very difficult for characters to land combos, he has incredible combo potential on many characters, great mobility on the ground with his wavedash and in the air with improved horizontal aerial mobility, and reliable kill moves. His main disadvantage is his lack of range which makes for some hard matchups (e.g. Marth, Ike).

 

[#HBC | Joker]

His main disadvantage is actually that he slides when people hit his shield. He can't punish people very effectively.

 

[Oro?!]

http://www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime/b/368199526

Theres the broadcast starting at winners semis Sethlon (Sonic) vs StrongBad (DK)

Theres plenty of proof in there for my claims. : )

 

[BRLNK88]

I'm facepalming at the fact people still think Sonic is low tier... are players like Wizrobe and Sethlon not enough proof?
Sonic is a beast, you have to learn how to PROPERLY USE him. Is he difficult to use properly? Yes, but just how many IC mains are there, yet they're still almost high tier?

You don't play him like a smash character.

Toon Link should also be mid-tier. His stage control is too good to validate his current spot. You don't spend that much time off stage when you use him properly.

 

[DMG]

Sonic is lame, and I'm all in favor of like giving him the Ike Broccoli Sword treatment.

OS: Sonic approaches that are spins, are veryyyy safe on shield. HA isn't very safe on shield, but when used as a mixup out of spin or after a shield has deteriorated it becomes a ton safer.

If you are Bowser or Snake with a godly Upb OOS, it doesn't look that safe. But I can't think of characters who can reliably shield grab it, or drop shield and punish. Shielding isn't a recommended option vs Sonic if he's fluent with his up close game, it's much more progressive to try to throw out hitboxes to stuff him instead. Doing that isn't a guarantee to beat Sonic either, since he controls the pace of most of his matches.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm facepalming at the fact people still think Sonic is low tier... are players like Wizrobe and Sethlon not enough proof?
Sonic is a beast, you have to learn how to PROPERLY USE him. Is he difficult to use properly? Yes, but just how many IC mains are there, yet they're still almost high tier?

You don't play him like a smash character.

Toon Link should also be mid-tier. His stage control is too good to validate his current spot. You don't spend that much time off stage when you use him properly.

The difference between Ice Climbers and Sonic is about 10 years of metagame development.

 

[Deleted member]

Am I the only one that played Sonic and thought "Wow, this guy sucks"?

He loses literally every trade, can't do anything upon hitting your shield but try again, and has literally no approach when you are sitting on a platform that isn't telegraphed all to hell. He can punish mistakes like mad and has speed that makes it easy, but I just don't see Sonic doing anything worthwhile once people stop playing on his terms.

In a word, yes. Sonic can choose when to attack so him losing trades is hardly relevant. You are ALWAYS playing on Sonic's terms. His approaches are great, his shield pressure is the nuts, and he's impossible to pin in a bad position in a game based on positioning. Leffen has the right idea.

I don't know who the best character is, but at this point I'm pretty sure that DDD is the worst and I'm even more sure that Sonic is the most annoying.

 

[Strong Badam]

Also Diddy is ****ing amazing. Holy ****.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah diddy is really good, or at least he's intuitive enough to bypass whatever alienating factors that are keeping the other brawl characters under-developed by their respective players.

 

[Juushichi]

I mean, he's obnoxiously fast, has good normals and a b-move that one can almost literally spam and get kills off of it.

It was down-B in vB and now it's up-B now in PM, for the record.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Diddy has a really straightforward moveset that allows people to succeed without having to do much thinking.

Sonic's dashdance sure helps him a whole lot if he decides to play the same game as you.

 

[DMG]

I still don't like Diddy's Uair, ugliest direction. Like a forward facing Falcon Uair, without the subsequent goodies.

 

[Overswarm]

Sonic is lame, and I'm all in favor of like giving him the Ike Broccoli Sword treatment.

OS: Sonic approaches that are spins, are veryyyy safe on shield. HA isn't very safe on shield, but when used as a mixup out of spin or after a shield has deteriorated it becomes a ton safer.

If you are Bowser or Snake with a godly Upb OOS, it doesn't look that safe. But I can't think of characters who can reliably shield grab it, or drop shield and punish. Shielding isn't a recommended option vs Sonic if he's fluent with his up close game, it's much more progressive to try to throw out hitboxes to stuff him instead. Doing that isn't a guarantee to beat Sonic either, since he controls the pace of most of his matches.

I do play Bowser, so that might be it. =P

I dunno, I stopped "playing Sonic's game" the moment I realized that he could outmanuever you when grounded, so I just platform camped like he was ICs and up+b'd to the ledge a lot. I haven't played Sonic players nearly on the level of Sethlon though.

http://www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime/b/368199526

Theres the broadcast starting at winners semis Sethlon (Sonic) vs StrongBad (DK)

Theres plenty of proof in there for my claims. : )

Thanks.

Watching this, it looked honestly like matchup inexperience combined with a good Sonic player. You can see StrongBad getting bodied like a noob in the beginning and then losing only because he dropped a few combos against a new character by the end. He picked up a lot of the matchup really, really fast.

Once Sonic gets a hit in, he has a good chance to mess stuff up and continue the "chain" rather than combo, but watch that video and ask yourself "was that because Sonic tricked him or outplayed him, or was DK throwing out a move and getting punished?"

DK was playing on Sonic's terms. When Sonic approached, he stayed still and hoped to beat him on reaction instead of moving away or even something as banal as rolling towards him. When he did get to shield an attack, he stayed in shield or tried to up+b OoS and all we really learned is that netiher of those worked particularly well.

I think Sonic can be a good character and can be great for certain matchups, but I don't forsee him being a powerhouse. I love playing him (especially taunt canceling side taunt) and will probably continue to do so, but when I play him I find I have to wait for an opening. If someone is on a platform and they just move out of the way, I have to reset and try again. I feel that's an inherent weakness that Sonic has; you can make the argument that Sonic can always approach when it is most viable for him to do so, but I don't buy that Sonic is untouchable. Even Sethlon against a DK who was figuring things out as he was going was getting grabs.

I'll have to wait and see more Sonic players, but I just don't see Sonic being a character you can just roll through a tournament with.

Also Diddy is ****ing amazing. Holy ****.

This I agree with completely.

 

[Juushichi]

I think the funniest thing about Diddy is that when he came out and I spent the first couple of days messing around with him and some of the brawl newcomers (to be fair, I played with Squirtle and Ivy and against Ivy in dev builds circa Reflex and BuckOhFive), I had mentally tiered them in my head.

I felt Diddy was the strongest of them (high mid), Ivy the weakest (low or mid-low). Then put Zero Suit slightly below Diddy (mid) and Squirtle slightly above Ivy's specific placing (mid-low). I think this will turn out to be accurate.

 

[DMG]

What you said about shielding, basically ties in with what we have all been telling you though about Sonic's shield pressure. It's basically a mistake (not usually fatal, but strategically a mistake) to try and shield vs Sonic. Shield grabbing is a no go, staying in shield is a no go, and without effective Upb OOS measures you usually aren't going to get a punish out of it. He's pretty safe on shield sans the really good Upb characters (and minus stuff like HA on shield, which tends to be punishable thank baby jesus).

Rolling sounds like a poor option for dealing with the Blue Speedy Gonzales. I don't fault a huge ass character like DK, for not rolling vs Falcon on steroids basically.


To get a better idea of the character, I'd watch both Wizzrobe and Sethlon because they are near polar opposite in playstyle. You can mix and match both of the things they do, and if you put it into a Sonic player one day he would be dumb lol. Imagine Sethlon NOT being a good guy and approaching all the time. Imagine him camping, or sitting there waiting. I'd rather not play the game at that point, or pray I have the few characters who do good (like Needling the **** out of his ass) vs him lol.

 

[Aenglaan]

Sonic is easily one of the best characters in Project M. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to put him up in high tier. He's certainly better than what the current average tier list suggests.

 

[Overswarm]

Watching Oracle's ROB didn't improve my perception of ROB much. Sethlon was impressive and had some unique answers to odd situations that made me rethink a few things...

But watching Oracle hit a shield and get punished over and over again was very saddening. I miss ROB.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Sonic can be a good character and can be great for certain matchups, but I don't forsee him being a powerhouse. I love playing him (especially taunt canceling side taunt) and will probably continue to do so, but when I play him I find I have to wait for an opening. If someone is on a platform and they just move out of the way, I have to reset and try again. I feel that's an inherent weakness that Sonic has; you can make the argument that Sonic can always approach when it is most viable for him to do so, but I don't buy that Sonic is untouchable. Even Sethlon against a DK who was figuring things out as he was going was getting grabs.

I won't try denying that you can certainly play the match-up better, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting for an opening. Remember, you don't have to wait, you get to wait, which is a broken ability that was previously only held by fox and to a much lesser degree. There is nothing wrong with staying in the neutral game when your character is going to be the one that wins exchanges in the neutral game more than any opposing character aside from the mirror. I don't buy that sonic is untouchable either, he's just the closest you can get to untouchable and winning out is relative.

As an aside, I think you're underrating DK's much improved macro game. DK's stage control options are substantially better. I think it might have been a little unusual for SB to pick FD against a sonic, but I could see that being a very reasonable choice against most of the cast.

 

[Overswarm]

The difference is that Fox doesn't have to wait for an opening. He makes his own. Sonic has to adapt to the circumstances that are presented to him; at the very least this raises his skill ceiling considerably.

 

[Deleted member]

The difference is that Fox doesn't have to wait for an opening. He makes his own. Sonic has to adapt to the circumstances that are presented to him; at the very least this raises his skill ceiling considerably.

Foxes that "make their own" openings are either fooling you or they're playing a worse pikachu. Fox is not a good character because he can nair shine, but rather because he can nair shine while retaining positional advantage with zero risk. Sonic should adapt to the circumstances the same way that Fox should against better opponents. The inability to run over mediocre opponents is something both characters can do, but I see no reason to further detail a sub-optimal strategy.

I agree that it raises his skill ceiling, but players will get there with time.

 

[Oracle]

loloverswarm. I beat metroid, kels, mdz, rat, and dart at that tournament, and they were all 2-0 except for kels. If you still think rob is bad then I don't know what to tell you besides get better

 

[Kink-Link5]

Mow, could you elaborate what you mean between "Macro-" and "Microgame"? Or link to another post where you describe what you mean?

 

[Overswarm]

loloverswarm. I beat metroid, kels, mdz, rat, and dart at that tournament, and they were all 2-0 except for kels. If you still think rob is bad then I don't know what to tell you besides get better

I'm not the one throwing away 2-0 sets in a finals match.

 

[Oracle]

You're also not the one with any semblance of tournament success for this game

 

[DMG]

He threw away the set with G&W, not Rob

We all know G&W is poo

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

They are not. You can check the tier list thread yourself to see that tier splits are based solely on Falcon's 7th place having a larger standard deviation of votes than Ice Climbers' 8th place. Because Ice climbers are more agreed upon to be definitely 8th place, but Falcon and Peach and Marth had votes for placings at as well as above 7th, they are grouped toegether in a tier while IC's are separated and listed as being 1 whole tier worse than Falcon. The votes are made not for tier placings, but are just a listing of characters without tier splits in the order members of the voting committee decided.

I know, or at least hope it isn't intentional, but you come off a little strong trying to talk to me like I don't know how tier lists are made or what they represent.

I'm just stating factual evidence of why or how tiers are created. Voting for tier splits is just another factor. Personally, in my opinion, why would you even care where characters are? Play the characters you want.

 

[Oracle]

He threw away the set with G&W, not Rob

We all know G&W is poo

Plus I landed a judgment, which as well know means I was the real winner

 

[Overswarm]

You're also not the one with any semblance of tournament success for this game

Just started a short while ago, won one last week. Got 7th in the first tournament I entered, 4 days after first playing it. I'll get back to you after I attend some more.

But seriously, just razzing you. That said, go watch your videos again and watch what happens whenever you hit a shield like... ever. ROB isn't a safe character and I counted at least 3 times during your first Kels match where he could have just straight up killed you and just didn't know any better. At one point he literally let you float and air dodge onto the ledge (!).

ROB's still got his old blindspots. While he can dish out some serious punishment now, he takes it pretty rough too. With his inability to do much when airborne to a shield, I don't see him doing much.

 

[Plum]

To me Sonic just has a lame design.
Only reason I don't mind fighting Sonic is because Sheik can handle him well. Needles are super good at controlling and limiting Sonic's options (surprise surprise, right?), and Sonic's physics/weight leave him open to all of Sheik's combo options.
I think Marth might do fine against Sonic because Marth's combination of mobility, and fast disjointed hitboxes. Haven't actually played that out, or really seen it played out though.

Diddy Kong is extremely underrated by a lot of people, but I think that's just inexperience talking for the moment. He feels like a Brawl+ character at times, he actually has a pretty solid recovery now, great projectile game, great OOS game, and some unique mechanics with his Side B and grounded bananas that set him apart from the rest of the cast. He's in a great place.

 

[Oracle]

Fairs are only unsafe on shield if I space them or time them wrong. Its pretty difficult to time correctly and is even harder against characters like DK who have busted grab range, which is why sb kept getting grabs. He has plenty of good ways to get around people who camp in shield.

Keep saying hes bad though so when he gets buffed again I'll do even better

 

[DMG]

ROB can sorta be safe on shield, but it mostly relies on spacing or crossing up, not being safe willy nilly on shield frame wise. If you are spaced well, shield grabs won't land besides the huge grab characters, and a lot of OOS aerial options won't reach that far either (or will be a tad too slow with jumping involved). The main problem would be forcing someone to shield in the first place, instead of DD/bait around waiting for the ROB approach once you go airborne (or being proactive and trying to stuff him as he comes along)

 

[Deleted member]

Mow, could you elaborate what you mean between "Macro-" and "Microgame"? Or link to another post where you describe what you mean?

This is a little tricky to interpret, but basically macro and micro are used to describe the kinds of interactions you're working with in any given field. For smash, macro looks at the larger picture, such as positioning, over-arching strategy, your game plan, and other abstract ideas. Micro means to look at something small scale and usually in an instance. for example, how you DI a throw is a micro decision, while sonic's neutral game is a macro concept. if you have any confusion, i can elaborate further, but i don't have good working definitions off-hand.

 

[V-K]

Yeah I don't think Ness is very bad.

 

[Kink-Link5]

This is a little tricky to interpret, but basically macro and micro are used to describe the kinds of interactions you're working with in any given field. For smash, macro looks at the larger picture, such as positioning, over-arching strategy, your game plan, and other abstract ideas. Micro means to look at something small scale and usually in an instance. for example, how you DI a throw is a micro decision, while sonic's neutral game is a macro concept. if you have any confusion, i can elaborate further, but i don't have good working definitions off-hand.

You're fine. I thought that was the case: A character's macrogame describes their overall character design and what they can do universally, the kind of things that are easy to analyze, like Charizard's nair being super giant disjointed and hitting on frame 4 having pretty clear applications. Microgame is stuff that has to apply in a case-by-case basis, like knowing what followups or delays work best on various characters or tendencies after landing the nair. Sound about right?