Tier List Speculation

[MLGF]

Oh yeah I didn't mention before, but especially Yoshi and the other 6 characters not in 2.6 will need to play a lot of catchup.

And I want to clarify something when I said the meta will take a while to develop:
I know this may sound crazy, but Project M has been out for a while and the MetaGame has been going pretty strong since 2.0ish, yes it's bigger now but plenty of characters have had meta's crafted even with all the changes. Not only that, but with the combo of Melee establishments and with the magical help of THE INTERNET metagames develop far quicker. This isn't just a Project M thing, Meta's just develop quicker due to how easy information of character/mechanical play spreads.

If you want an example, people said when Ultimate Marvel 3 came out that Zero being top tier is just theory fighter and that it'd take forever for lighting loops to ever be practical. But in a year's time, that impossible has become the NORM thanks to a few tourney matches. The spread of knowledge is insane now, so Project M characters now are developing at a far faster rate then Fox in Melee.

I still hold by my statement that newcomers certainly need more time, but it's not going to be anywhere close to "Melee Time" if that makes any sense. Competitive gaming is different now then it was back in 2001 and the biggest difference is the speed in which things develop.

 

[Sashimi]

Yoshi's recovery is not bad. People just need to learn not to double jump at unsafe times.


Also @ Nausicaa I tried some things recently and you're right about Dashdance > Dash grab/Pivot Grab. It's too good.

 

[DMG]

Delaying Double Jump however makes Yoshi more prone to footstool. Coming back to the stage from lower should be a big no no once people apply footstooling better: you'd only be able to avoid it by attacking or airdodging. Either choice will lead to death if you're not already close/high enough

 

[Guilu]

Footstooling goes through armour ? Interesting.

 

[Sashimi]

I'm not talking about when you're recovering. Everything you said is true. What I'm saying is when people use their DJ onstage (for example DJC), get hit out of it, die, and then complain that Yoshi has no extra recovery move.

EDIT: Also now that I think about it, rising Uair would probably beat a footstool attempt with no risk of an SD.

 

[Cassio]

Your logic is so bad. Where do most of the people, who play pm, come from? Meele and Brawl. And were the people who have the tools to be sucessful in PM also sucessful in Melee/Brawl? Most likely. Than why should they stop playing their old game, where they can still place good at tourneys/win some money and completly switch over to a yet unfinished game.

Off course people that are good in PM/winning PM tourneys have a high chance to play Meele/Brawl as their main game. What do you expect? You want people to start playing smash with PM, so we can call them pure PM players?

Nevertheless, the most funny part is that you complain about other people complaining and wasting their time.

Not sure why you get so riled up when I post. In your indignance you miss the point. Hidden under criticisms of other smash games are excuses for why they never did well or tried hard in them. "Well Brawl was a bad game but PM is good so now I can really show off my skill", "Melee was unbalanced but PM isn't so now I have a chance". Meanwhile those who thrived in 64, Melee and Brawl didnt make excuses they just got good at their game. They didnt complain about Fox they learned to beat him. They didnt complain about hard it was to approach they figured out how to anyways. They learned how to do these things in spite of the difficulty, and ultimately its this mentality and ability that leads them to success in PM.

Ack, forgot to reply to you, Cassio.

I think quite highly of Pikachu, although I understand and respect your reasoning for why he is still sub-par. Among the Pikachus that I watch, mainly Anther and Axe, I still see efficient combos and incredible gimps. I don't see the slight different in the up air affecting their gimp game although the higher throw makes it more difficult to extend combos.

It's not his uair its just how ridiculously good recoveries are now. I think watching those two just makes pika look better then he is, and I think unlike most characters his combos arent really combos but having to string really smartly which is part of his weakness but makes him look good by them

Anyways on the topic of pika, I talk with Anther once in awhile about pika stuff. You might be the only one interested in this but heres a conversation we had pre-shuffle about some pika stuff.

Spoiler

Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge
[2/13/2014 3:53:05 PM] Tagxy: i saw
[2/13/2014 4:05:07 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: ;x...
[2/13/2014 4:05:11 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: you weren't supposed to saw
[2/13/2014 4:05:17 PM] Tagxy: ;;
[2/13/2014 4:05:30 PM] Tagxy: youre very aggressive
[2/13/2014 4:05:51 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: O.O
[2/13/2014 4:06:06 PM] Tagxy: (angry)
[2/13/2014 4:06:13 PM] Tagxy: lol, referring to yesterday
[2/13/2014 4:07:25 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: haha
[2/13/2014 4:07:26 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: oooh
[2/13/2014 4:07:44 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I didn't know you were still there
[2/13/2014 4:08:03 PM] Tagxy: oh, i thought thats the stream you wanted critique?
[2/13/2014 4:13:56 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: that one counts
[2/13/2014 4:13:57 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: XD
[2/13/2014 4:14:01 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: But it's true
[2/13/2014 4:14:06 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I think I sent you that message right before the chadwick
[2/13/2014 4:14:18 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: oh wait
[2/13/2014 4:14:21 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I did send that on monday
[2/13/2014 4:14:26 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: da heck veevee
[2/13/2014 4:14:38 PM] Tagxy: afk
[2/13/2014 4:15:01 PM] Tagxy: lol, well i watched the better one then hopefully
[2/13/2014 4:19:23 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: yes definitely
[2/13/2014 4:19:24 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: XD
[2/13/2014 4:19:33 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I think
[2/13/2014 4:19:47 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: but yeh, apparently I'm going through an aggressive phase
[2/13/2014 4:19:52 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: so I must kill it
[2/13/2014 4:20:05 PM] Tagxy: well it wouldnt be so bad
[2/13/2014 4:20:15 PM] Tagxy: but peeps just toss out moves and tend to beat yours
[2/13/2014 4:21:01 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I mean I guess if that's the only bad part (heidy)
[2/13/2014 4:21:07 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: (sun)
[2/13/2014 4:21:36 PM] Tagxy: lol, well imo i think you could still be fast but maybe try for more fakeouts and scurrying
[2/13/2014 4:21:57 PM] Tagxy: the two big things i think could help
[2/13/2014 4:23:27 PM | Edited 4:25:29 PM] Tagxy: grabbing more instead of trying for shield pressure, like start turning grabs into a goal and not feeling so threatened by shields (imo). I know sometimes when grabs arent on your mind shields can seem kind of scary
[2/13/2014 7:02:29 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I like this idear
[2/13/2014 7:02:38 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I'm looking for lots more mixups ;~;
[2/13/2014 7:04:33 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: LOOK AT YOU HELPING PIKA
[2/13/2014 7:12:06 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: Is scurrying slang for running
[2/15/2014 2:23:42 AM] Tagxy: scurrying is slang for scurrying
[2/15/2014 2:23:51 AM] Tagxy: we should talk about it more soon
[2/16/2014 3:01:33 PM] Tagxy: (rain)
[2/16/2014 3:04:49 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: (sun)
[2/16/2014 3:05:30 PM] Tagxy: lol
[2/16/2014 3:05:34 PM] Tagxy: by scurrying i meant
[2/16/2014 3:06:20 PM] Tagxy: just lots of moving and being annoying, without necessarily committing to aggressive options (although sometimes doing it)
[2/16/2014 3:07:00 PM] Tagxy: the other thing i was going to say besides grabbing, is to use duck, crawl, dtilt, crouch canceling and pikas general small frame more.
[2/16/2014 3:07:37 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I'm definitely going to try that
[2/16/2014 3:07:59 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I realize I lost sight of my original goal to use quicker noncommital moves
[2/16/2014 3:08:06 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: which I feel fits in with what you just said
[2/16/2014 3:08:19 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: since I got better and thus could land my high commitment moves more often
[2/16/2014 3:08:27 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I trapped myself in a bad feedback thingy
[2/16/2014 3:12:19 PM | Edited 3:17:30 PM] Tagxy: yeah i think its easier to fall into that habit with PM cause i saw you play more that way in brawl too last fall. like in Brawl one of my favorite things was fade away uairs with pika jumping at the opponent to hit them and then suddenly reversing and uairing. so if they ran into it they got hit, or else they might get baited into hitting the uair that wasnt there and getting punished, or at least get so used to it that when i do uair them they assume its a bait. i dont think you can do that in PM cause you cant reverse momentum, but that idea
[2/16/2014 3:13:17 PM | Edited 3:17:56 PM] Tagxy: although its the same idea when you run around your opponents to bait them into shielding and getting grabbed. but i think thats harder to exemplify.
[2/16/2014 3:15:04 PM | Edited 3:16:18 PM] Tagxy: i have some ideas of ways use pikas moves to bait in PM more but I havent played it enough or with enough good people to really test them out.
[2/16/2014 3:27:51 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: So liek
[2/16/2014 3:27:57 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I just tried scurrying vs someone
[2/16/2014 3:28:07 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: and went from close games to me 4 stocking him
[2/16/2014 3:28:07 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: XD
[2/16/2014 3:28:14 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I see the power in this
[2/16/2014 3:28:16 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: since liek
[2/16/2014 3:28:21 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I'm not 100% looking for openings
[2/16/2014 3:28:28 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: and doing something that I usually do when I'm just playing around anyway
[2/16/2014 3:28:33 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: which is just kind of playing around
[2/16/2014 3:28:35 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: O.O
[2/16/2014 3:28:42 PM] Tagxy: yehhh
[2/16/2014 3:29:47 PM] Tagxy: btw other things about scurrying, i think this works in melee too, but people always react the same way to pikachu short hopping
[2/16/2014 3:29:56 PM] Tagxy: and always expect the same thing usually
[2/16/2014 3:30:20 PM] Tagxy: but pika has like a million options from short hop, but every pika does the same thing
[2/16/2014 3:32:20 PM] Tagxy: by that i mean people 99% of the time shield and pikas 99% of the time nair
[2/16/2014 3:33:21 PM | Edited 3:35:28 PM] Tagxy: one of the easier mixups is to empty hop then grab them. or empty hop out of their range and do nothing/wait for their reaction.
[2/16/2014 3:34:07 PM | Edited 3:34:42 PM] Tagxy: but also like, mid hop do a waveland back to the ground, or at the very end up the hop, do a double jump uair
[2/16/2014 3:34:23 PM] Tagxy: or lots of other things
[2/16/2014 3:42:14 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: this r such nice insight O.O
[2/16/2014 3:49:43 PM] Tagxy: lol, i think even delaying uair without the double jump is good, because people expect you to hit them/nair as you approach, and uair you can hit from behind and has good range to hit late. though double jump is safer and may combo better, and hitting them close to the corner might shield poke them better.
[2/16/2014 3:53:12 PM | Edited 3:56:56 PM] Tagxy: along with this, i think crouching is super good for pika out of dash too if you can judge his small slide, and even better now that you can crawl. Dashing around a lot and then duck just at dtilt/fsmash range. Pika ducking at this range just give him so many options (dtilt/fsmash, shield, crouch cancelling, sh > aerial/nothing/etc., wavedash > something, etc., dash > usmash/grab/etc.).
[2/16/2014 3:58:16 PM] Tagxy: I think those things improve pikas ability to weave, bait and keep options open.
[2/16/2014 3:59:21 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: So when you say delaying uair without the double jump
[2/16/2014 4:00:21 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I feel like you just helped me jumpstart thinking about mixing up a LOT of different approaches
[2/16/2014 4:00:55 PM] Tagxy: that was just a long random side note, lol. I mean uairing into the ground, but at the last possible moment, so that the point between a potential first hit of nair and the last possible hit of uair are really far apart, and make the opponent most likely to drop their shield. i think you can just be creative in general with short hop though
[2/16/2014 4:01:48 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: oooooo
[2/16/2014 4:02:51 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: but yeh, on these notes I lost to super's sonic twice this weekend
[2/16/2014 4:03:06 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: and I think it was because I didn't do enough bait type stuff
[2/16/2014 4:03:14 PM] Tagxy: thats good. actually i didnt mind telling you but I didnt want to put this on the pika boards because im afraid that if pika becomes too developed they wont fix the things that are wrong with him which i 100% do think they should be fixed.
[2/16/2014 4:03:27 PM] Tagxy: well sonic is another baity character, but pika has a projectile at least
[2/16/2014 4:06:04 PM | Edited 4:06:36 PM] Tagxy: oh, actually on that note, I think pika is still really good at using his tilts for counter approach/super aggressive types. his ftilt breaks through everything like sh aerial approaches (utilt too for some moves). The trick is to not be baited into tossing them out as well as good timing and spacing, but if its something they do often especially it works well
[2/16/2014 4:07:32 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I'm so bad at timing tilts
[2/16/2014 4:07:41 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: maybe that's what I'll spend my time in the lab doing this week
[2/16/2014 4:07:50 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: before I go to that stressful mlg like thing
[2/16/2014 4:08:07 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I think pika's uthrow is gonna be fixed
[2/16/2014 4:09:02 PM | Edited 4:18:18 PM] Tagxy: lol, i forgot about that. are they going to have PM? i think looking at the hitbox/hurtboxes in melee helps since theyre very similar. Especially if theres a particular move (like falcos dair). I think pikas utilt in PM looks more like brawls though (which is good), at least from the animation
[2/16/2014 4:15:51 PM | Edited 4:15:53 PM] Tagxy: well since im talking about pika anyways, I think the way his thunder, fair, QA and fsmash are used are underdeloped. Pikas buffed fsmash/thunder + melees hitstun, shieldstun, and airdodge make these moves much better. Fair i think chu dats the only one whos experimented with it a lot, and QA could be used better but i think im the only one who spent a ton of time in recent brawl times trying to use it well, so maybe people will try more in PM
[2/16/2014 4:18:35 PM | Edited 4:18:59 PM] Tagxy: also i meant utilt not uair in that last one I just fixed it though
[2/16/2014 4:22:40 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: I use fair as my main approach
[2/16/2014 4:22:45 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: liek
[2/16/2014 4:22:48 PM] Antoine 'Thrz' Sledge: it's kinda amazing

 

[DMG]

This place should be renamed "Generalization-boards"

Half the arguments here are rife with them

...

Besides any comments on Zelda/her mains. Those are 100% accurate, yup

 

[Ripple]

Besides any comments on Zelda/her mains. Those are 100% accurate, yup

and the ooze, don't forget the ooze

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Not sure why you get so riled up when I post. In your indignance you miss the point. Hidden under criticisms of other smash games are excuses for why they never did well or tried hard in them. "Well Brawl was a bad game but PM is good so now I can really show off my skill", "Melee was unbalanced but PM isn't so now I have a chance". Meanwhile those who thrived in 64, Melee and Brawl didnt make excuses they just got good at their game. They didnt complain about Fox they learned to beat him. They didnt complain about hard it was to approach they figured out how to anyways. They learned how to do these things in spite of the difficulty, and ultimately its this mentality and ability that leads them to success in PM.


It's not his uair its just how ridiculously good recoveries are now. I think watching those two just makes pika look better then he is, and I think unlike most characters his combos arent really combos but having to string really smartly which is part of his weakness but makes him look good by them

Anyways on the topic of pika, I talk with Anther once in awhile about pika stuff. You might be the only one interested in this but heres a conversation we had pre-shuffle about some pika stuff.

~snip~

I've thought about a lot of the stuff that you mentioned to Anther. That's all just good player stuff, being able to mindgame the opponent and realize when the opponent keeps his shield up or drops his shield. I've seen Chu link Fair>Up Smash a good portion of the time with Pikachu, so that is a really good usage of fair. Thanks for sharing this with me!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't

and the ooze, don't forget the ooze

I saw you rocking that Ooze tag at Shuffle, Ripple.

You're awesome.

 

[Terotrous]

The Tail list discussion has been heating up so I'd probably better explain my choices:


S:

Mewtwo:
Tail Attacks - FTilt, DTilt, UTilt, Bair, Uair, Dthrow

Mewtwo's tail has tons going for it. It's long, it's strong, it does it all! Mewtwo can do some pretty beefy combos with his tail alone, and is one of few characters to possess a tail throw.


A:

Yoshi:
Tail Attacks - FTilt, Bair, Uair, Dsmash

Yoshi's tail may not have the range of Mewtwo's, but it hits hard! Dsmash and Uair are great kill moves, and the others are excellent in combos. Yoshi must be part Stegosaur.


B:

Charizard:
Tail Attacks - Dtilt, Nair, Bair

Charizard's tail has amazing potential, I mean, just look at it, it's so awesome that it's constantly on fire. Sadly, we catch only scant glimpses of its true strength, like with Nair, Charizard is otherwise too busy showing off his fancy new wings to put his tail to good use.


Pikachu:
Tail Attacks - UTilt, DTilt, Nair, Uair, USmash

Pika's tail is pretty short, but he gets a ton of use out of it, probably because it's the only part of his body that can bend. USmash alone is one of the best tail attacks in the game. Now if only he had Raichu's tail...


Squirtle:
Tail Attacks - 3rd hit of Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair, Uair, Dair, Fthrow

Squirtle's tail is proof that size isn't everything. It's tiny, but it's great at racking up the combos. You will respect Squirtle's little tail or get pushed around the whole stage.


C:

Fox, Falco
Tail Attacks - Dtilt

Fox and Falco both get virtually no use out of their tails, only using them for a single mediocre attack. At least they're better than Wolf, who forgot that he has a tail at all.


D:

Diddy Kong
Tail Attacks - Third hit of jab

Diddy waggles his tail. The opponent quickly DIs up and hits him in the back of the head. Bottom tier.



Hours of research went into this list.

 

[Nausicaa]

Anyways on the topic of pika, I talk with Anther once in awhile about pika stuff. You might be the only one interested in this but heres a conversation we had pre-shuffle about some pika stuff.

I'm pretty sure Pika 'mains' have a serious issue with short term habit loss and gain. It's like they're severely prone to the 2 steps forward > 1 step back system going out of control.
I think it was a course of 9 months that I got Axe to stop doing N-Air > U-Air on shields and getting B-Aired for it. I fear the disease he's prone to was contagious through Pika-hood, and Anther has caught it.

Things.

More things.

YOU CAN DO IT ANTHER! I BELIEVE IN YOU!

Then again, I'm quite certain every player has the same tendencies in different observable ways, and that's why this game is a such a great tool towards personal development in all faculties of life.

Good stuff Cassio, keep on them all like a pest. It has observable results, even if your strategy or methods are odd or unwelcome, it's as SpiderMad said earlier.

When anyone values other's opinions of tiers into their own, it probably scues what would be more accurate. People putting Squirtle and Pikachu as top tier in some kind of another tier list poll, are probably making the collective guess better off for people valuing them too low and such. When's the thread/polls for making a collective MU chart gonna start?

That can be applied to all things.
Every view, especially the extremes with any given consideration, is a great asset to the greater good of all.

Edit: All players in the Pika-based forums or main-hood, are doomed.
Abandon ship!


In other news...

Mewtwo Grabs with psychic powers, which technically isn't with a physical appendage, so technically, even when he does a 'pose' with his hand, his Grab into D-Throw could qualify as being 100% with his Tail.

That's a pretty good tail.

 

[Zwarm]

I support Squirtle's tail for at least A tier. Tail literally combos into tail. Repeatedly.

 

[Empyrean]

Zard's tail doesn't care about where you guys put him on your pathetic tier lists. He knows how good he is, and he know he's the best (well actually Mewtwo's is).

Embrace the ridiculously long 360 fire hitbox. Be the ridiculously long 360 fire hitbox.

 

[Ogopogo]

Embrace the ridiculously long 360 fire hitbox. Be the ridiculously long 360 fire hitbox.

Or as Chad calls it, the World Destroyer

 

[guedes the brawler]

The Tail list discussion has been heating up so I'd probably better explain my choices:


Fox, Falco
Tail Attacks - Dtilt

Fox and Falco both get virtually no use out of their tails, only using them for a single mediocre attack. At least they're better than Wolf, who forgot that he has a tail at all.

i though their down tilt was actually a spin kick

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Nah, Falco just has really ****ing strong tailfeathers

 

[NightShadow6]

Nairizard is on the rise.

 

[Oro?!]

Omg I'm taking "The World Destroyer" Zard nair. Soon every good move in this game will have great nicknames.

 

[Empyrean]

Ivy's bair should be "The Ragequit Inducer".

 

[grandpappy]

Throwin' out salt-a-rangs all day baby.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Throwin' out salt-a-rangs all day baby.

nice nice. I do like lolerangs too

 

[NeonApophis]

I have a strong suspicion that Squirtle is broken. I'll be testing this hypothesis over the next few weeks/months.

 

[Nguz95]

I'd be interested to hear your findings, as reflex has shot down every single person who has claimed Squirtle is even decent.

 

[Oro?!]

Squirtle is good.

 

[Cassio]

Why do people think squirtle is suddenly good now?

 

[trash?]

because the worst in the game rn can still be pretty alright, and squirtle is a tiny shiek with a goofy upsmash and goofier shell shift, so you can't go too wrong

also, the metagame does not have very good eyesight. we may need to give them glasses

 

[Zwarm]

I have always said Squirtle is good, people just don't listen to me

 

[DMG]

Well Squirtle is bad, so

 

[Zwarm]

Yooooo money match?

 

[Rᴏb]

Squirtle's funny. I find it kinda surprising people don't abuse the **** out of bubble more... Such a good move.

Such a bad character.

 

[MLGF]

I find it funny how people act like Squirtle is so bad, worst character fine, but he's perfectly viable.
I think a bit less startup on his killmoves are really all he needs to enter the realm of "Really good", but even now he's fairly solid.

 

[DMG]

I'd MM any Squirtle on God's Green Earth

I play Marth, have fun

 

[McD]

No character can avoid attacks like Squirtle, easily goes under projectiles while not sacrificing speed, he can swap momentum for attacks in frames. I'd say his agility is what makes him. He does struggle when in some kill aspects but they are definitely there. Withdraw has incredible amounts of potential. Not the best, but not bad by any means.

Also thank you for posting this:

 

[XXXX1000]

pft who needs kill moves

just train to get really really good at piling tons of damage upon an enemy

at 250% every move is a kill move

 

[Chesstiger2612]

About good moves and their names:
Lucas up-throw the "see you next time", Yoshis or Links nair the "c-c-c-combo breaker", Ivys sweeptspot up-b the "high five", ZSS D-smash -> F-smash the "Final slash", and sth in the wordfield of light for shine -> flash
...just to continue it

 

[Nazo]

About good moves and their names:
Lucas up-throw the "see you next time"

The "Pizza Toss" is more suiting.

 

[DMG]

Bad names, uncreative. Watch and learn, you serfs

Ganon Ftilt angled down: The Stanky Leg

Pikachu anything: The "Please let me hit you, I'm so tiny and need to go back to the Forest with all the other Pikachus"

Roy's Neutral B: Rock Hard Fire Rod

Mario Dair: Puerto Rican Spinaroonie

Donkey Kong Cargo Uthrow: Cheese
DK Uair: Cheese
DK Jab: Auto combo
DK Down B: Chop Suey with Cheddar
DK Grab: Nacho Supreme
DK:

G&W Nair: The Hindenburg (Big and beautiful, but ends in disaster)

Wario Dsmash: Too nerfed to have a good name

IC Belay: ****** Toss

Lamar the Olimar Whistle: Blackup

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Some are terrible and some are really great

 

[Blade-Fox]

So does that make Wario's Side - B the Shoulda' Lean?