Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

Yea let's turn the game into something only a certain type of player wants to play
To hell with diversity

Fox for everyone

 

[jtm94]

Meh.

Ness seems like he's really neat because he can control the board more than Lucas, but his moves all lack flavor to me and I forget about most of them. I think it's awesome that you can PK Fire someone off stage and them dair them out of it, didn't really see that anywhere until last night.

Playing against people who lnow how to SDI PK Fire makes the move feel super underwhelming.

 

[Empyrean]

Fox for everyone

Brawl MK for everyone would be even better.

 

[Ogopogo]

I wonder who would win, in a contest between equal players... Melee Fox or Brawl MK.

But that question isn't for the tier list thread. Here's one that is:
Why is Falco worse in PM than he is in Melee, compared to the rest of the cast. Has he received any changes, apart form the removal of frame 1 invincibility on shine? His recovery is comparatively worse than most, but his on-stage game is still good.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why is Falco worse in PM than he is in Melee

He's not. His recovery is better, and he benefits significantly from the B-reversal mechanic.

 

[DMG]

Falco as a character is roughly the same, maybe arguably slightly buffed with stuff like DACUS. People say that he's relatively worse off due to a buffed cast that's more equipped to deal with him, and a much more diverse stage list possibly allowing CP's against him

 

[Fenrir VII]

Let me put it this way.. Fox and Falco both had ~6-4 (fairly even) matchups against certain lower-tier characters in Melee.

With PM, most lower tier characters have gotten significant buffs. Also, you have the inclusion of Brawl characters that have at least somewhat favorable matchups against them (MK, Pit, etc)

Those 2 facts move both of them down, imo.

Also powershield is slightly easier to use in PM, which makes laser rushdown less effective.

 

[Ogopogo]

He's not. His recovery is better, and he benefits significantly from the B-reversal mechanic.

I meant compared to the rest of the cast, i.e. why he (maybe) isn't one of the top 5 in the game. DMG gave me some good reasons, although I was also hoping we could talk about some people that counter him, and why they do. Also, how was his recovery buffed?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I still dont get all the zelda hate. I guarantee you that a campy fox is much much worse than a campy zelda. Zelda cant actually get percent unless you mess up and step in a dins. She also cant convert as hard off a hit on most of the cast like fox or falco could. People don't really play campy spacies as much because they also happen to be the best characters at approaching. If were changing zelda at all we should give her buffs, allowing her to apply pressure better from an aggressor standpoint, but don't remove her current playstyle. Giving her more options that could give her incentive to play aggressive is fine, but be considerate of the people that play zelda now and respect the effort they've put in to develop her play.

Most changes that most people want for Zelda are buffs.

Air Dodge and First Jump out of dins back when?

 

[NightShadow6]

Just learn the match up, this is one of the first characters in smash who is designed to be a defensive character.

(Referring to zelda)

 

[Soft Serve]

Most changes that most people want for Zelda are buffs.

Air Dodge and First Jump out of dins back when?

i miss 1.0 zelda too

 

[DMG]

I meant compared to the rest of the cast, i.e. why he (maybe) isn't one of the top 5 in the game. DMG gave me some good reasons, although I was also hoping we could talk about some people that counter him, and why they do. Also, how was his recovery buffed?

New Samus is tasty vs Falco. That's all I can say

 

[Soft Serve]

Was falco's recovery buffed? I guess he Enjoys the more lenient ledge grabs and the easier shortens, but honestly the slight curve on his up-b destroys the distance he gets on certain angles.

I still think he has the best onstage game, and dominates the neutral game verses most of the cast. The whole cast now has better tools to punish him and deal with his pressure though. I still think he is a top 5 character.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Was falco's recovery buffed?

I swear to Christ his vertical recovery on FD is almost as good as Melee Fox's.

 

[DMG]

um what

WHAT




WHATTT

 

[Frost | Odds]

MAYBE I'M CRAZY I DON'T KNOW

BUT THE BIRD FLIES OKAY

 

[Strong Badam]

I swear to Christ his vertical recovery on FD is almost as good as Melee Fox's.

this is demonstrably false

 

[Frost | Odds]

I stand corrected, then.

Has anyone made use of b-reversed lasers with him yet, or is that 21XX tech?

 

[deadjames]

I think it's worth noting that giving Falco his Brawl jab was a pretty significant buff.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think it's worth noting that giving Falco his Brawl jab was a pretty significant buff.

How so?

 

[deadjames]

It makes his jab cancel combos so much better.

 

[jtm94]

Pretty cool German tourney of a fair size: http://www.twitch.tv/saltyplayground/b/500065857

Finals was Ike vs Zard.

I think Ike has a lot of stuff figured out, but still has potential, this guy was REALLY fast with quickdraw and the RARs you can do and the speed can really apply scary pressure.

Zard has AMAZING moves. He has like... the best jab in the game, his dtilt reaches so far and KOs, his NAir is like MKs nair if it reached half screen. REgardless he is still big and easy to land hits on.

 

[Metazoa]

I think a lot of the big characters have a wide variety of amazing moves and tools, but it always come backs to size when we talk about matchups. Size is always the things that seems to be keeping them from greatness.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is it, though? In what prevalent situations does size play a major factor in fighting others, both in terms of good and bad characters?

It's not nearly as big a deal as it is in Brawl, I'd say. Shortness is a nice attribute to have, but I don't think it affects the neutral game all that much overall in PM.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Awkward hitboxes and being incredibly unsafe on block work against Zard too. He's one of the floatier characters too, so an empty hop grab isn't the most auspicious option, and throw KO's like Lucas's can kill him as early as 114, compared to his own struggling to KO Lucas at 160.

 

[Empyrean]

Is Falco's DACUS actually useful? I hardly see anyone use it, and it doesn't seem to cover a longer distance than a running upsmash or come out significantly faster. I know however that he is still able to perform the gatling combo, so that's cool.

 

[Ace55]

Is Falco's DACUS actually useful? I hardly see anyone use it, and it doesn't seem to cover a longer distance than a running upsmash or come out significantly faster. I know however that he is still able to perform the gatling combo, so that's cool.

I feel like Falco's gattling combo isn't that useful because in most scenarios he can combo his dash attack into something better than upsmash. Perhaps at low % he can use it when dash attack won't combo into other stuff but again, so many options lead to better stuff than a auto-combo ending in upsmash.

Maybe low % vs fastfallers when no other move besides dash attack will reach?

That said, between side-b reverse ledge grab and b-reversed lasers he does have some new options that his melee version would love to have. Just don't see them being used much.

 

[DMG]

I think it's worth noting that giving Falco his Brawl jab was a pretty significant buff.

Um, the Brawl jab is only for looks. They kept that animation, but I was pretty certain the other properties of the move were just like Melee.

 

[deadjames]

Um, the Brawl jab is only for looks. They kept that animation, but I was pretty certain the other properties of the move were just like Melee.

I'm pretty sure it has the same range as Brawl, could just be my imagination though. I don't see why they would bother keeping the Brawl animation if they were going to give it Melee properties.

 

[The_Altrox]

Um, the Brawl jab is only for looks. They kept that animation, but I was pretty certain the other properties of the move were just like Melee.

They should have left it in. The Brawl jab was so much fun.

 

[Soft Serve]

Because melee


In 1.0 he had the complete brawl jab plus brawl fair and it was really fun imo.

 

[deadjames]

Falco's Brawl fair seems like it would be pretty ridiculous with the ability to L-cancel.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I wonder who would win, in a contest between equal players... Melee Fox or Brawl MK.

But that question isn't for the tier list thread. Here's one that is:
Why is Falco worse in PM than he is in Melee, compared to the rest of the cast. Has he received any changes, apart form the removal of frame 1 invincibility on shine? His recovery is comparatively worse than most, but his on-stage game is still good.

I think Meta, if he gets the hitstun glitch.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Brawl Metaknight, given nothing but Melee's universal mechanics, would be detrimental to the game.

 

[MagnesD3]

Because melee


In 1.0 he had the complete brawl jab plus brawl fair and it was really fun imo.

They really should give falco some of his brawl stuff back. Jab, fair, d's mash, up tilt and reflector kick if holding down the b button or something, but unfortunately he is catored to melee purists ATM.

 

[Soft Serve]

That sounds like giving falco more options, no ty.

 

[Kink-Link5]

They really should give falco some of his brawl stuff back. Jab, fair, d's mash, up tilt and reflector kick if holding down the b button or something, but unfortunately he is catored to melee purists ATM.

This statement is unbelievably disingenuous.

"catored to"
"Melee purists"

The wording here is specifically made to talk down to his design, as if the pmbr are shills that made choices because Shizwiz gave them twenty bucks under the table.

 

[The_Altrox]

Again, I will say this: if they're not going to give Falco his kick reflector, they should have given it to somebody else (maybe Wolf if they wanted to rebuild him like they did with a lot of other characters). It had a lot of integration potential.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Again, I will say this: if they're not going to give Falco his kick reflector, they should have given it to somebody else (maybe Wolf if they wanted to rebuild him like they did with a lot of other characters). It had a lot of integration potential.

Explain how.

No, seriously, how would you integrate the kick shine into a spacies' moveset in a way that makes it superior to their current one? I'm not the biggest fan of shine, but it's an integral component of the spacie meta and unless the kick shine is any sort of actual improvement in some way, there is no point in keeping it.

 

[deadjames]

Again, I will say this: if they're not going to give Falco his kick reflector, they should have given it to somebody else (maybe Wolf if they wanted to rebuild him like they did with a lot of other characters). It had a lot of integration potential.

They already did rebuild Wolf though, in fact he's probably one of the most well-designed characters in PM.