Tier List Speculation

[Farquaad]

• User was warned for this post

"squirtle is dumb" - strong bad

Congrats on getting warned for calling out StrongBad in a thread where plenty of other far more off topic stuff flies.

While we're at it, to make it tier list spec relevant, I speculate that I'm glad certain PMDT can't nerf the living **** out of generously mid-tier Squirtle just because they're buttsore and think he's dumb. Call up your mothers and thank them for bringing you into a world where Squirtle exists.

God bless America lmao

 

[Life]

I'll admit I've never seen people so salty about other people being salty.

Also, Lunchables is legitimately pretty good at this game. What kinda bracket did he have?

 

[D e l t a]

Lunchables had Luck, then Flashing Fire, then m2k

So I'm assuming Diddy, Snake, and Fox / Marth?

 

[glowworm64]

Congrats on getting warned for calling out StrongBad in a thread where plenty of other far more off topic stuff flies.

While we're at it, to make it tier list spec relevant, I speculate that I'm glad certain PMDT can't nerf the living **** out of generously mid-tier Squirtle just because they're buttsore and think he's dumb. Call up your mothers and thank them for bringing you into a world where Squirtle exists.

God bless America lmao

seriously. I dont see what he has to complain about, since he plays a character who has BS and is actually good. Im guessing he went Wario, and theres no way the matchup could be that bad for Wario.

IOn the subject of Lunchmans bracket: so he played against Luck (who hes played a bunch), and against a character who he has a lot of experience in Snake. Not saying hes not amazing, he definitely is. I think it played a role though; i can imagine that you have more positive momentum if your bracket runs smoothly - hence his confidence against M2k. Just a thought though.

 

[DMG]

I'm sorry I didn't go to super bit wars to stop the ****ing salt. I had an enjoyable small regional in TX to attend and enjoy and win, Lord have mercy. I will Knee everything at LTC, catch you nerds there

Edit: I don't understand anything about Super Bit Wars 4 PM results. Like aside from Shoe-in Lunchables victory (he's beyond OP), half the bracket looks like a big swath of upsets and craziness. This can't be real

Edit #2: @Ripple I'm retiring PM after LTC. Let's realize our dream of drunk Mario Party, and then build a Mario Party Twitch sponsorship. If I'm gonna play a party game, I might as well drink and get paid for it (lol@PM)

 

[Juushichi]

Good **** to @Lunchables, the young god. Now we just have to get him to do that outside of TX at a big ass major, that's really the next big step.

Big shoutout to @dirtboy345 doing his thing and bodying, same with Yata! (idk how to tag him?), although it seems like Yata is still with his 9th place curse. I'm pretty happy that the MW is doing it big, tbh. And MI PM is going literally everywhere, lmao, it's great. I wish Tap would have been able to go down there and make people mad too.

I'm not going to lie, I get sour about losing to some of these characters too. I still hate Squirtle and Ness, but idk about this "it's not a smash character" thing. I think every region for the most part has certain character knowledge, but I feel like Texas plays Melee + (and ROB), where every other region is actually playing against different looks.

 

[Kipcom]

idk im with Strong Badam and @Oracle i fcking hate snake and squirtle too

also **** lucas

Fight me


Also I find it kinda funny that an exPMDT member is complaining about PM characters being BS and not fitting smash.

It's almost as if you guys had 5-6 years to change the design on some characters before it was too late.

 

[Bleck]

good thing we got all those fox tweaks though

 

[Player -0]

I assume they weren't balancing out of pure vendetta.

Saying they could've changed some because they didn't like them doesn't really feel like the professionalism of the project was accounted for.

 

[Strong Badam]

Fight me


Also I find it kinda funny that an exPMDT member is complaining about PM characters being BS and not fitting smash.

It's almost as if you guys had 5-6 years to change the design on some characters before it was too late.

You say that as if any sole person had absolute authority over the project and that we didn't try to get that **** fixed multiple times.

 

[Bleck]

they couldn't get the squirtle patch out before nintendo forced them to release 3.5 after hitting a deadline

 

[Boiko]

Neither Squirtle or Snake are even top tier characters IMO.

Blaming the character for your loss and not giving credit to the other player, especially when you're a highly regarded community leader is petulant and bad sportsmanship.

 

[Soft Serve]

I want to let it be known I hated snake and squirtle before it was cool

 

[Deleted member]

seriously. I dont see what he has to complain about, since he plays a character who has BS and is actually good. Im guessing he went Wario, and theres no way the matchup could be that bad for Wario.

IOn the subject of Lunchmans bracket: so he played against Luck (who hes played a bunch), and against a character who he has a lot of experience in Snake. Not saying hes not amazing, he definitely is. I think it played a role though; i can imagine that you have more positive momentum if your bracket runs smoothly - hence his confidence against M2k. Just a thought though.

I actually rarely play azer, we have only played once in 3.6

I'm not blind to snake or anything but I don't have much ingame exp

Edit: my pool was a squirtle and a sonic, then my bracket was ness, Diddy, snake, and m2ks million melee characters. I also played ripple and dirtboy in doubles twice, so I got a healthy exposure of the autism characters lol

 

[_Chrome]

Lol at Wario being a BS character too. Same goes for Lewie G and all of the other characters that Melee players avoid playing Project M for. At least that's how it is in my region (I gotta clarify for the social justice warriors). In my region, the list is as follows:

-Luigi
-Squirtle
-Snake
-Diddy
-G&W
-Wario

The bolded ones are the ones I have problems with. Those are the big six janksters that nobody wants to play against in bracket and they happen to be the ones for which Melee people avoid our scene. And to clarify for the many Lewie G mains in here: I don't hate you so don't hate on me. Your character is jank: Own it, you know it.

bang bang

 

[Zach777]

Why doesn't anyone complain about Mewtwo? He's slippery too. Has a long tail and makes you win neutral more than normal usually. I main M2, so I love him, just curious about that.

Where is the Falco hate? I avoid melee sometimes because of his abundance.
A character who has a 1 frame combo tool and neutral game of completly shutting you down with transcendant lasers is awful. Who thought Falco was a good idea? Lol, at me being pretty ok with Fox and Wolf though.

 

[D e l t a]

same with Yata! (idk how to tag him?), although it seems like Yata is still with his 9th place curse. I'm pretty happy that the MW is doing it big, tbh. And MI PM is going literally everywhere, lmao, it's great. I wish Tap would have been able to go down there and make people mad too.

Juushichi hype ( btw Yata is @cisyphus )

Why doesn't anyone complain about Mewtwo? He's slippery too. Has a long tail and makes you win neutral more than normal usually. I main M2, so I love him, just curious about that.

Mewtwo doesn't win neutral more than normal. He's kinda floaty and lacks good approach options. Tele-approaches become telegraphed if you pay attention to the opponent not your own character, his float / hover nonsense is too slow to be jigglypuff-esque, and the rest of his moves seem pretty balanced overall. Unlike Squirtle/Luigi, you can hit him and he won't go flying. Plus he gets juggled quite easy IMO

Where is the Falco hate? I avoid melee sometimes because of his abundance.
A character who has a 1 frame combo tool and neutral game of completly shutting you down with transcendant lasers is awful. Who thought Falco was a good idea? Lol, at me being pretty ok with Fox and Wolf though.

Learning to powershield & SDI goes a long way in the Falco MU. Plus, half the characters in the game can do just as well as Falco while having a good recovery. And something something nobody good actually plays Falco in PM

 

[DMG]

>"PM is so balanced guys"

>>Lose to a Brawl character and call it janky

>"PM is awesome cause all sorts of characters and player styles can do well in tourney"

>>Call into question the skill of almost any player using a non-Melee-ish character, that achieves success or a crazy bracket upset (does not apply to D3 players, we love all of them)

>"PM lets players express more creativity than the Melee cookie cutter meta crap"

>>Call 70% of the stuff outside the cookie cutter as jank or BS, unless it's something your character can do


Folks let's face it: PM is not that great, it's not that fun, and it's certainly not that balanced. Now let me clarify that:


I really like PM. I wouldn't travel and enter tournaments way outside my local zone, or try to get top 10 in DFW PR (don't get me started on the actual system though, DFW might as well make a panel and vote instead of the current system imo), or try to get better like this.


I say those things as someone in the community that does alright and enjoys the game on a pure baseline level. I think a lot of people either loudly or subconsciously pushed the idea of how great PM was, like way beyond the actual scope of the game. PM is not the Second Coming of Jesus, it's not a cure to World Hunger, it's just a game that a couple of cool people made and updated.


I don't think you can enjoy the game that much if you have crazy Fackin expectations for it. Some MU's suck in unbelieveable ways. Some character designs have been questionable. Sometimes, "playing to win" in PM doesn't seem that interesting or seems like cancer. It's a game of like 40 fairly unique chars, with people across the globe trying to balance it. Spoiler alert: it ain't ****in balanced and it ain't always cool.

Deal
With
It

Be realistic, accept it as a (questionably illegal) mod of a fighting game (part of a series shunned by many in traditional FGC) that sometimes kinda sucks AND could be way better, but still has awesome tourney scenes and awesome community that cares about it. PM is an ugly duckling, so accept it and love it all the same.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why doesn't anyone complain about Mewtwo? He's slippery too. Has a long tail and makes you win neutral more than normal usually. I main M2, so I love him, just curious about that.

Where is the Falco hate? I avoid melee sometimes because of his abundance.
A character who has a 1 frame combo tool and neutral game of completly shutting you down with transcendant lasers is awful. Who thought Falco was a good idea? Lol, at me being pretty ok with Fox and Wolf though.

MewTwo is also large
He's still near the top of my list of fun-offenders tho

Also falco isn't nearly as frustrating at high level because you get the punishments you earn most of the time, lasers can be dealt with through smart shielding/power shielding, and as a moderately slow character of average size and limited aerial options, he adequately suffers from poor positioning

 

[Tomaster]

Mewtwo is the coolest character in the game, can't be complained about.

I want to let it be known I hated snake and squirtle before it was cool

It still isn't cool..

 

[DMG]

Mewtwo is the coolest character in the game, how can you even think to complain about him??

A friend of mine pointed out that Mewtwo's tail seems to extend and originate from his crotch. AKA it's Mewdong: check the color scheme of Mewtwo if you don't believe me. He's smacking you with his dong

 

[Zach777]

Lol at above comment.

Also, what I meant about Mewtwo with neutral is that the opponent has to win neutral a few more times than what is normal. I think that because with most opponents I fight I end up living to 160+%s whereas they die at any percent because M2 being godlike at gimps/edgeguards vs most characters.

I still think Falco is really dumb.

 

[D e l t a]

Well if they don't know how to kill you then sure. A while back I found that opponents who live to such high % is a result of the player not getting the kill when they had an opportunity. Unless of course you're Marth, where all your kills happen at 70 or 170

 

[Strong Badam]

Neither Squirtle or Snake are even top tier characters IMO.

1. I haven't said **** about Snake.
2. No one said that they are top tier characters, you're not bringing anything interesting or new to the conversation, as usual. Just strawman arguments that accomplish nothing. Don't really care to sugar coat things anymore, sorry.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

It's hard to complain about mewtwo when there are only like 0.5 mewtwo mains in the world.

 

[D e l t a]

I wonder what it's like in other regions where slippery / low tier characters don't exist. It's like michigan doesn't want to let go of 3.0 - we have at least 2-3 mains of Lucas, Mewtwo, Ness, Squirtle, luigi, Snake, etc. Must be nice not having to deal with all the BS & jank

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Lol at Wario being a BS character too. Same goes for Lewie G and all of the other characters that Melee players avoid playing Project M for. At least that's how it is in my region (I gotta clarify for the social justice warriors). In my region, the list is as follows:

-Luigi
-Squirtle
-Snake
-Diddy
-G&W
-Wario

The bolded ones are the ones I have problems with. Those are the big six janksters that nobody wants to play against in bracket and they happen to be the ones for which Melee people avoid our scene. And to clarify for the many Lewie G mains in here: I don't hate you so don't hate on me. Your character is jank: Own it, you know it.

bang bang

luigi has a frame 3 nair, unusually low friction that makes things that are normally unsafe safe and vice versa, as well as an rng-based critical hit side-b

calling luigi's inherent properties jank is a preference measurement. sure, he's an outlier but that doesn't really mean much.

calling misfire jank is reasonable I guess, but it's not nearly as random, nor as unreactable or strong as it was melee. Also, its use as a recovery option is far more useful than as an offensive option

what's REALLY outstanding (you might want to use the word jank) about weegee is his disjointed jab range (which can be cc'ed/sdi'ed) and the angle that uair sends at as well as his invincible head on usmash/utilt

altho tbh after playing luigi not much is "jank" it's just kinda the way the game is

what is jank tho is that if luigi and ganon try grab and ftilt each other respectively at the right time both will miss at point blank because ganon tries to kick above his head while luigi grabs ganon's other leg which just doesn't exist or something

 

[Boiko]

1. I haven't said **** about Snake.
2. No one said that they are top tier characters, you're not bringing anything interesting or new to the conversation, as usual. Just strawman arguments that accomplish nothing. Don't really care to sugar coat things anymore, sorry.

I'm sorry, I wasn't specifically referencing you in my post, but rather top tier community members who are behaving poorly.

I'm not trying to bring anything new or interesting to the conversation. I'm pointing out that the negativity surrounding your posts is strictly uncalled for and unprofessional. Is it okay to be frustrated by a character? Yes. I'm frustrated by Sheik all of the time. But your post/tweet is basically saying that you had a 0% chance of winning and that dirtboy didn't earn his win. And that is completely uncool, and totally uncalled for.

I'm not here to argue. I'm not going point : counterpoint, I'm saying that you, Oracle, and anyone else complaining they "lost to the character" needs to man-up, accept the loss, and realize, that those characters have weaknesses, and just because YOU failed to exploit them, and resultantly got outplayed, doesn't mean that the other player didn't earn their win.

I don't go toting around saying, "I would have beaten Strong Bad at Paragon if it weren't for Wario's skewed dynamic of risk/reward." I accept the fact that I lost, I got outplayed, I didn't capitalize where I needed to, and you did. Simple as that.

 

[_Chrome]

A skewed dynamic of risk/reward is jank. (In my eyes, okay people.)

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP If a character has too many outlier characteristics then they become jank. Not to say being jank is always a bad thing, but it can be off-putting for many without a lot of exposure.

 

[Deleted member]

Holy ****ing salt in this thread

thank god I main toonlink and bombs are immune to most of the stupid **** in this game (most, not all of it sadly)

 

[JesteRace]

It's kind of the same for a Link main, to a lesser extent, obviously. The meta is not very kind to Link, but the anti-meta jank? Fuh-getta-bout it. Every jank character someone complains about like "wtf is this? What do I even do?" And I'm like "I just throw stuff, idk what to tell ya."

 

[Professor Pro]

tfw you read Snake salt, but the salt can no longer have any impact on your characters development

Kreygasm Kreygasm Kreygasm

 

[Deleted member]

Prof buffed snake and then pulled the plug on the DT

Never trust a snake main

 

[trash?]

the fact that I don't know what your actual opinion on snake is anymore means you fit the title of snake player more than any other human being on the planet

the sneakiest opinions, hiding among the crowd

 

[Bleck]

try to remember the basics of cqc

 

[didds]

Some truths:
-Squirtle can be edge guarded
-Edgeguarding squirtle is more complicated than "grab ledge"
-grab ledge is still important
-not all characters have the tools to quickly be in position to grab ledge after getting squirtle off stage
-not all characters benefit much from being on ledge. Sometimes cutting down options also means limiting your own options and these two factors need to be weighed. This is why umbreon understands that grabbing edge as marth is rarely his best option, though it's still important at times. Yoshi gets more off ledge for example against squirtle.
-squirtle is unique in how he operates in enough ways to be considered an exception to a lot of "smash fundamentals", though saying he's not a smash character starts to border the realm of subjectivity.
-theory crafted, hard punishes don't make a mu good. I'd argue that the wario squirtle mu is tough for wario regardless of what he has when he sets up a tech chase. If that's all that mattered then Ganon would body squirtle.
-Ganon doesn't body squirtle.
-squirtle wears sunglasses at nighty because he's always stoned

 

[thechosenjuan]

i play dirtboy 24/7, can confrim squirtle is absolutely busted

 

[didds]

Oh he's definitely busted

 

[Professor Pro]

LOL standardtoaster likes my post and still gives me a warning, I respect it.

*activate warning avoidance*
I think MK is a good character and should be high on most peoples list.

 

[didds]

LOL standardtoaster likes my post and but still gives me a warning, I respect it.

*activate warning avoidance*
I think MK is a good character and should be high on most peoples list.

I played your snake in friendlies once. At one point you down b'd me and I went flying up as you were coming down (you were popped up from a combo ender of mine). As you passed me while I was in hit stun you restuck me and blew me up again, killing me.

Snake is as busted as squirtle