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what these guys said, primarily.
fox can easily be top of the top tier, but he doesn't need to be in his own. he's not that much better than the characters below him.
Dude you're craazy.
That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.
Sonic can jump out of the hitlag of airborne strong hit down b
I don't think that's what permafrost meant. Technical characters with a hypothetically powerful punish game that have trouble aggressing the opponent directly (the way a laserless Fox would go about it--by being fast enough to approach with a reliable tool like shffl nair and then being able to continue with the pressure even if the initial nair doesn't do much) and thus rely on alternative ways of getting hits--how much of the cast does that describe? That describes Lucario, but it also describes Dedede, for a loose definition of "technical" anyway. Peach, too. Those characters are all incredibly different from each other, yet they all have certain commonalities.
bowser doesnt beat roy. Ive played the MU in and out like a thousand times. they both have devastating punish games on each other, but roy wins neutral hands down. bowser doesnt have the speed nor frame data, despite a decent ability to CC. everything he has is too punishable, and he has nothing to trump dtilt or roys grab range. edge guarding bowser is also super EZ mode with roy. its not the worst MU for bowser, and i think on some stages it can actually approach even, but thats about it.
show me how its done? would like to learn.
Soft Serve
Chrome knows that 
if Lucario's not solo-mainable then people have too high standards for what determines which characters are solo-mainable lmao.
Idk dude, maybe there's this thing called reaction time and everyone's is slightly different (better/worse). Everyone tells me that MK's tech-chases are super good too, they're super free etc. I practiced them for weeks on end and never got any better at them, even characters with particularly bad tech-rolls like Falcon, I would drop the techchase. It was so frustrating that, among a good few other reasons, I don't really play the character at all anymore. I strongly prefer launcher throws, personally, even if they have a smaller range of use.
Luigi/Marth are pretty damn tough for Lucario, that's fair. They're not unwinnable, though. Not sure on Mario/Roy/Ike, but I don't think they're as hard as Luigi/Marth.
shairn
I would contest your position on the Icies matchup, and I think many other Icies mains would agree. For starters, Icies can really just shield all of his attacks because none of his throws are very good at splitting them up and he'll generally eat a smash attack for his trouble. It's difficult for Bowser to keep up with them in neutral, avoid their burst ground movement, or find his way around their attacks, and all of their chaingrabs are pretty much impossible from him to get out of since he's so huge. Because of this, he gets grabbed and corner-carried very very easily. When he gets grabbed in the corner (or on a platform) he's dead guaranteed regardless of the percentage because handoffs are an inescapable infinite on him and a few other fatties and the Icies player can basically just hand Bowser off until 200% and then up-smash for a KO if they so choose. Sopo even has a decent chaingrab on him. So pretty much every grab is certain death, and it's very not hard to grab him. Maybe down-smash separates them, but an option so committal would likely be very easy to bait out and punish for a character with as good a wavedash as Icies, even with the armor. To boot, since all of Bowser's attacks are fairly committal to begin with, spending any time devoting attention to Nana leaves him almost wide open for Popo to grab him or begin an uair juggle (which I'd imagine Bowser has a tough time getting down from). I personally think it's one of the worst MUs in the game. That's just my two cents though.
KK bthrow is super easy to land on ICs and separates them instantly. It's Bowser's quickest throw and quite hard to react to. ICs do not have very good options to approach vs Bowser when he's crouching, since he can eat up blizzard and ice blocks, the latter of which can also just be power shielded very easily to aid in approaching. Dsmash is great for separating them, of course, but obviously you don't want to throw it out in neutral. Plus, flame breath locks them down since they can't go up over the flames to go after Bowser.
Uhhh, I don't have any post 3.6 beta footage of my sheik vs MK (**** 3.6beta) so I can't really give a visual example.
Omg its strong bad im such a big fan
Ripple
or @DrinkingFood - can either of you figure out the chain jacket by the frame data? i tried to do it in frame advance but wasnt able to get it to any reliable capacity
NOTMalachi
- what i do usually is go for whichever throw is better since sheiks throws have slightly different release points that are favorable over the other, the short version being to bthrow fox falco wolf falcon roy mk lucas diddy zss, but otherwise to dthrow everyone else (this is assuming that i ignore throwing for position instead), i wavedash to where the opponent lands, and then either tech chase or jab jab and then tech chase, the first jab being for the reset, the second to disrupt SDI. this generally brutally murders the entire cast except the pseudo fastfallers (mk roy diddy lucas specifically) because if the opponent does no DI on the throw it usually sends them too far for WD to cover tech in place without giving the opponent access to ASDI > disrespect option. so for a basic example, i grab roy at 30, ignore throwing for position, and bthrow. on no DI, the throw to a combo is no good, but the distance roy goes is still too far for sheiks WD, so tech in place > dtilt becomes very hard to reactively challenge. if the opponent is ******** and DIs bad or always tech rolls then sure sheik eats them, but this has not been my common experience vs those characters at higher level play.
mostly because people evaluate good and bad differently. bowser is a monster in some MUs but most people associate good with "every matchup"
GengarKid
I did a write-up on this mess for new members a while back. But basically, you're not wrong about the strength of his attacks.People agree that Bowser is pretty bad because even though he does have his good attributes, his bad ones (size, sluggishness, laggy attacks, etc.) put him at a disadvantage in a lot of interactions. Don't let that discourage you from playing the character, though! Figure out for yourself what's best for you to work with.I said:
Hmm. Why do you do backthrow on those specific characters? I generally use downthrow on everyone because it doesn't send them as far and as an old 3.6b habit. Even at higher percents, I never have a probelm with wavedashing to any of those characters as long as I start a run beforehand, even on full DI away. The whole No DI thing confused me as well. Couldn't you get dash attack(Or at the very least boost grab regrab) on a lot of semi fast fallers After like ~30 percent or so?
edit -
Roy ftilt can be a pain in the rear as well given how low-commitment it is. Also, I always play Lucario with the assumption that I will win neutral no more than four times, so I kind of need that touch to death combo or I'm ****ed. I am leaning on playing Wolf in situations where I may need to win neutral more than four times to win, which means Wolf could become a dual main for me.
NOTMalachi
for like a week and grind out more Sheik. Do tell.
