KinGly
Smash Journeyman
Wouldn't that confusion go both ways though?
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
It only forced tumble like half the time, the rest of the time dair just made you do a standing ground crumple like any weak meteor, giving him lots of follow up time
eideeiit
Smash Ace
Kirby mains are experts at dealing with confusion, as they have all struggled with their sexual preferences, pondered the meaning of life, been torn apart by their one side that tells them that all men are equal and the other that tells them it was all because of the jews, and most importantly went through the whole posting history of Nausicaa. The whole act of maining Kirby is just one step in their way towards a nirvana of confusion, an eternal chaos. I would know. I tried maining him for a week and it made me a toastersexual voidkin. 0/10 would not recommend.
also @DiZZ , please use dots, capital letters and the like. Please.
also @DiZZ , please use dots, capital letters and the like. Please.
Warzenschwein
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Messages
- 331
we're talking, like, wicked smart
also, jiggly doesn't have a chaingrab on kirby, so there's more pressure on jigs to not mess up, allowing for more potential mistakes. it's practically a foolproof plan.
D
Deleted member
Guest
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all identity crises can be solved by picking metaknight, I'd highly recommend doing that
depression and anxiety disorders getting you down? just throw out random nairs, it works on sonic and he's just as bad
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_Chrome
Smash Ace
I find it very soothing to repeatedly press the big green button. As an added bonus it lets me win.
--------------->------------->-------------->
Dtilt + nairs all day everyday.
Rinse and repeat to let go of all of the stress in your life.
--------------->------------->-------------->Dtilt + nairs all day everyday.
Rinse and repeat to let go of all of the stress in your life.
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I prefer using the peanut shaped button to jump thoI find it very soothing to repeatedly press the big green button. As an added bonus it lets me win.
Dtilt + nairs all day everyday.
Rinse and repeat to let go of all of the stress in your life.
nimigoha
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 877
is actually the best.
_Chrome
Smash Ace
I actually use X to jump and tap jump for jc grabs and usmash and upb oos. But this ain't "Tier List" chat, whatever that entails lol.
The Baron
Smash Apprentice
we could make a button tier list
Xykness
Smash Journeyman
Its so difficult to keep up with this thread at times LOL.
When did discussion move to a tier list of buttons instead of the characters?
When did discussion move to a tier list of buttons instead of the characters?
KinGly
Smash Journeyman
Well to start A is the best because it is a viable solo main without much work out in changing controls, then probably B and Y. After that it gets kinda fuzzy but past Z the viability takes a pretty steep drop.
_Chrome
Smash Ace
It didn't. Is there much to talk about right now though besides maybe Sonic a little more... Because not much has happened as of recently afaik.
Volt-Ikazuchi
Smash Journeyman
Lol, scrub. Git Gud. Use tap jump. Kappa.
My personal layout is as similar to Smash 64 since that was what kept me playing for years, so I pretty much have a button for Short Hopping that I almost always forget to use and can't even begin to wonder what would be like to play without Tap Jump.
But thinking about button layouts, I kinda want to test using A to Taunt. It's so conveniently located....
Clearly default is s tier, bcuz melee.
Anything else is just some sort of janky affront to pure smash.
Anything else is just some sort of janky affront to pure smash.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Idk I mean Ken seemed to be able to get by using mostly the B button in Melee
Avro-Arrow
Smash Journeyman
Forget Ken, every Falco ever only needs and they're good to go.
Also, Falcon gets trashed by MK nairs too, lol.
and they're good to go.Also, Falcon gets trashed by MK nairs too, lol.
Journal
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 21, 2015
- Messages
- 126
I know we've probably been over this, but why isn't jiggly higher up again? I know people say that the only reason hbox did so well with her is that he's a god, and I get that to an extent, but M2K is a god too, playing a much better character with better matchups that he has probably more experience with than hbox, and people beat him in PM all the time. The fact that the character gets hbox so far feels significant since m2k's much better characters and more experience in PM doesn't do him as much good (relatively)
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Because people don't know how to deal with rest or space out against Jigg's Bair in PM. They do however train against Fox / Marth players more often. For most characters, it can be difficult to combo Jiggs and many people don't practice comboing floaties due to the lack of floaty representation
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
M2K is extremely bad at adaptation in unfamiliar matchups.
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
PM also has way more viable characters that are heavy, have disjoint, have good recoveries, or some combination of all 3. jiggs is just placed into a much harder environment based on the most relevant match ups that she has to deal with, and being the lightest character doesnt help her in a game where having good survivability is way more important than in melee.
also good to note that hbox is like the only person to have any kind of success with jiggs, mayyyybe except for mango wayy back in the day.
also good to note that hbox is like the only person to have any kind of success with jiggs, mayyyybe except for mango wayy back in the day.
Journal
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 21, 2015
- Messages
- 126
Right but even with that isn't the argument that fox can usually just do fox things and overwhelm in neutral? Jiggs is a much more limited character in terms of options and depends a lot more on edgeguards. In a cast where recoveries are so diverse and have a lot of mixup options, it seems to me like Jiggs would have to be better than we previously thought or hbox is just that much better of a player than mew2king when he doesn't play pm nearly as much as mew2king and has a much weaker character.
redbeanjelly
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2014
- Messages
- 57
Also keep in mind that M2K enters many more PM events than Hbox does.
If everyone knows how to deal with you but you don't know how to deal with them, that's going to be tough to deal with. If no one knows how to deal with you and you don't know how to deal with them either, that's much easier to take advantage of.
Xykness
Smash Journeyman
I would say that our Jiggz player has been putting in work a lot lately. Soulpech has shown that he can compete with the best of them at major events. For example, Soulpech was literally SO close to taking out Phresh at We Tech Those when that is one of Jigglypuff's worst MUs (imo). Knowing that he could literally die to a grab at 60%, he was still able to take it to last game last stock in a super entertaining set....
For your viewing pleasure...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9tFO0On1WU
He has also taken sets off of players like Anther, Dirtboy, and more.
For your viewing pleasure...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9tFO0On1WU
He has also taken sets off of players like Anther, Dirtboy, and more.
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Still one of the best sets around.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Puff's worst MU in the game I think is actually Mewtwo probably.
IC is close to even.
IC is close to even.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
closely followed by Lucas & Ivy. Not too sure about Fox in PM since 10 lasers don't equate to half her stock anymore. Tink seems like he'd be among her top 5-10 worst MUs as well
How do you guys feel about Puff v GnW?
How do you guys feel about Puff v GnW?
Zach777
Smash Journeyman
Jiggz worst could very well be M2. M2 basically does everything she wants to do better. Jiggs weight and gravity doesn't get her out of combos as much against M2 as it does against alot of other characters since M2 has hover. Heck, M2 can actually edgeguard Jiggz for damage where as most characters just have to let Jiggz back(more or less).
M2 vs Jiggz is heavily in M2s favor I believe.
M2 vs Jiggz is heavily in M2s favor I believe.
ilysm
sleepy
Puff Icies is tricky. I'm tempted to say it's even considering each of them have their ups and downs but I don't really know Puff's side of the story as well as I could. Regardless, that set is wildly entertaining and I think SoulPech is doing a great job of showing what Puff can do. Major props to him!
This question has been eating at me for a while. Considering that MU spread is a huge part of tier position, how many matchup in this game can be considered totally unwinnable for one character or another? Like, Tink is considered one of the worst (if not the worst) matchup for Icies, but Phresh has pulled out wins against DVD before. Samus bops Ness but if Ness is very clean and careful it's doable. Even in Melee mid-tiers like Samus and Luigi can lose matchups on paper and still see high degrees of competitive success, an effect which is only more prevalent in a game like Project M. On the other hand, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that something like Icies Bowser is the worst matchup in the game. Thoughts?
This question has been eating at me for a while. Considering that MU spread is a huge part of tier position, how many matchup in this game can be considered totally unwinnable for one character or another? Like, Tink is considered one of the worst (if not the worst) matchup for Icies, but Phresh has pulled out wins against DVD before. Samus bops Ness but if Ness is very clean and careful it's doable. Even in Melee mid-tiers like Samus and Luigi can lose matchups on paper and still see high degrees of competitive success, an effect which is only more prevalent in a game like Project M. On the other hand, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that something like Icies Bowser is the worst matchup in the game. Thoughts?
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Matchups are considered on the basis of two top levels players of equal skill and matchup knowledge, so Phresh may have simply significantly outplayed DVD, and midtiers in Melee often get somewhat of a boost due to matchup inexperience.
ilysm
sleepy
Bazkip
Yes, that's exactly my point. Nobody is disputing that Tink is an awful matchup for Icies (as far as I know anyway but maybe), and yet even at that level of disparity it is still possible for the losing character to outplay the winning one. So what are the matchups where a player of substantially less skill can consistently beat a player of substantially greater skill? Which matchups can be considered unwinnable? Are there any? And building off of that: if a matchup is technically winnable, albeit bad, how much of an impact does it have on character viability?
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JesteRace
Smash Journeyman
Are there any? At the current point in the meta, I believe the answer to that is no. Most people agree that 3-7 is the absolute worst it gets in Project M and even then, I believe 3-7 matchups are rare.
As for viability, I think how much impact bad matchups have depend a lot on how often you'll run into them. Link, for example, probably has more good matchups than bad ones. But almost all his bad ones are top/high tier, so you're quite likely to run into them. They're winnable, but if you're running into bad matchups every tournament, that's definitely gonna take a hit to your viability.
I think the eventual list of MU's that are truly 4/6 or worse, will end up being a much higher number than people currently assume. A huge majority of MU's are not fleshed out at the top level because of fragmented representation (either regions split on top mains, or regions split on not playing with each other frequently enough). Also, some MU's legit vary based on stage lists (which are very far from universal or consistent). Finally, a lot of people are reluctant to expand on examining or giving a harder definition on what exactly makes a MU "bad", and simply label things 5/5 or 45:55 and move on. It's easier to give someone a small edge and call it a day.
Unwinnable is a hogwash term in PM in present day, unless you're legit like D3 vs some terrible MU or some very obviously flawed design counters with little gameplay for your character. TL is an easy character to examine in that light, because he certainly has stages that should give some opposing chars very low/little viable chance of winning (likely due to bomb camping or general keep away). Maybe DVD didn't go to Norfair and run for 8 minutes, maybe Norfair was not legal or available, maybe xyz wtfbbq. There's plenty of reasons why a "winning" MU side could lose IRL, especially with a game like this only at this point.
Unwinnable is a hogwash term in PM in present day, unless you're legit like D3 vs some terrible MU or some very obviously flawed design counters with little gameplay for your character. TL is an easy character to examine in that light, because he certainly has stages that should give some opposing chars very low/little viable chance of winning (likely due to bomb camping or general keep away). Maybe DVD didn't go to Norfair and run for 8 minutes, maybe Norfair was not legal or available, maybe xyz wtfbbq. There's plenty of reasons why a "winning" MU side could lose IRL, especially with a game like this only at this point.
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it's not even like jigglypuff vs ICs is even all that common enough in melee to easily dissect. I can only recall hungrybox vs. wobbles, and that was two and a half years ago
nimigoha
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 877
You're clearly forgetting me vs an ICs at my first ever Melee local after playing Jiggs for a week, where I got wobbled 3 times over 2 games. The matchup is unwinnable, of course.
ilysm
sleepy
I dunno. I tend to look at losing matchups as being one of two kinds. The first kind is the sort of losing matchup where one character has a strong edge over the other due to the fact that the winning character's tools force the losing character to play more carefully, or more precise, or at a higher level in general. A good example of this I think would be something like Ness/Samus. Samus is near-ungimpable, extremely difficult to kill and combo, and can wall Ness out very successfully with projectiles. As such, Ness needs to be extremely cautious and spot on. He needs to shield and avoid projectiles, not overextend his combos to leave himself open for punishes, and take his own punishes where he can get them. Since she lives so long compared to him, he needs to outplay her many more times than she does him in order to secure a stock, so while he's doing all this he needs to get hit as little as possible. These are things that are difficult to do, and that is why the matchup is considered bad. But if Ness is on his game and can do these things, he can win. So the matchup is not a total loss in terms of character viability.
Then there's the matchups where the edge that the winning character has over the losing character seems to go beyond simple precision. I think Bowser/Icies is a good example of this. Icies have every conceivable advantage over Bowser. He's a tremendous target. Desync ice blocks and blizzard in the neutral are very difficult for him to get around without Bowser getting clipped and taking free damage. The desync walls tend to force Bowser either into the air, where he has no reliable descending offensive options against Icies and can easily be intercepted by an utilt or uair, or they force him into the corner, which is bad news for any character but especially bad for Bowser. If Bowser does get in, he doesn't have much to go on, because his attacks are pretty slow and Icies can essentially shield everything because next to none of his throws are all that great at separating them so grab is a nonissue. Not only that, but a grab from Icies almost anywhere on the stage will kill Bowser at pretty much any percent, considering the fact that he's simply too big to reliably escape dthrow dair midstage and any grab on a platform or near a ledge essentially kills him instantly because the dthrow/fthrow handoff is an infinite on Bowser. This goes past Bowser needing to play at a higher level than his opponent. Not only does he need to play so that he is never touched, he doesn't have any reliable tools to touch Ice Climbers. He will get hit at some point. An Ice Climbers player who knows the matchup will, in my opinion, have a huge advantage over Bowser, by a wider margin than most bad matchups. I mean, disclaimer, I'm not saying I could beat Odds here (the skill gap between me and a Bowser player of that caliber makes matchups almost irrelevant, because I suck). But I feel safe assuming a Bowser main would be so much better off counterpicking anyway, because they could avoid so much unnecessary grief doing so.
I'm just spitballing here, really. I could be wildly off in my analysis of what actually makes matchups bad. I also could be evaluating the second kind of losing matchup based on the same factors and characteristics of the first kind of losing matchup without realizing it. But I guess what I'm trying to start a discussion on is, how many bad matchups are the first kind and how many are the second kind? I can't think of many that are the second kind, but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the overall matchup spread of this video game as I'd like to be and I was looking for the input of some more well-versed players.
Then there's the matchups where the edge that the winning character has over the losing character seems to go beyond simple precision. I think Bowser/Icies is a good example of this. Icies have every conceivable advantage over Bowser. He's a tremendous target. Desync ice blocks and blizzard in the neutral are very difficult for him to get around without Bowser getting clipped and taking free damage. The desync walls tend to force Bowser either into the air, where he has no reliable descending offensive options against Icies and can easily be intercepted by an utilt or uair, or they force him into the corner, which is bad news for any character but especially bad for Bowser. If Bowser does get in, he doesn't have much to go on, because his attacks are pretty slow and Icies can essentially shield everything because next to none of his throws are all that great at separating them so grab is a nonissue. Not only that, but a grab from Icies almost anywhere on the stage will kill Bowser at pretty much any percent, considering the fact that he's simply too big to reliably escape dthrow dair midstage and any grab on a platform or near a ledge essentially kills him instantly because the dthrow/fthrow handoff is an infinite on Bowser. This goes past Bowser needing to play at a higher level than his opponent. Not only does he need to play so that he is never touched, he doesn't have any reliable tools to touch Ice Climbers. He will get hit at some point. An Ice Climbers player who knows the matchup will, in my opinion, have a huge advantage over Bowser, by a wider margin than most bad matchups. I mean, disclaimer, I'm not saying I could beat Odds here (the skill gap between me and a Bowser player of that caliber makes matchups almost irrelevant, because I suck). But I feel safe assuming a Bowser main would be so much better off counterpicking anyway, because they could avoid so much unnecessary grief doing so.
I'm just spitballing here, really. I could be wildly off in my analysis of what actually makes matchups bad. I also could be evaluating the second kind of losing matchup based on the same factors and characteristics of the first kind of losing matchup without realizing it. But I guess what I'm trying to start a discussion on is, how many bad matchups are the first kind and how many are the second kind? I can't think of many that are the second kind, but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the overall matchup spread of this video game as I'd like to be and I was looking for the input of some more well-versed players.
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