Tier List Out: 2nd in Low

[Masky]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028

I'm guessing most of you have seen this but no one's made a topic regarding Ness's official tier position. The SBR has put out a tier list and Ness is the second highest in Low Tier (the lowest tier), below Lucas. Obviously we weren't expecting High Tier from Ness due to his few huge weaknesses as a character (grab release - though Wario, Luigi, DK, etc have worse grab problems and they still placed high, and the fact that Ness can be gimped more easily than most other characters). However, Ness also has some amazing strengths, many of them unique to him specifically (I don't think I need to describe these, we know them all very well).

Personally I think Ness can get higher. I mean, lower than Ike? Seriously? We can do better. With a bit of hard work by us Ness players, I think Ness can move up to at least the bottom half of mid-tier (maybe between Luigi and Peach), possibly even further. The only ways we can do this are by advancing his metagame (finding new ATs, uses for moves, etc) and placing higher in tournaments.

Now I'm not one to talk since I don't have any decent tournament placings and have only found a few silly ATs, but I'm going to make an effort to get some videos recorded soon so we can have some decent Ness videos and you all can critique me and maybe I can share some stuff I've found but not really posted. I'm going to be working hard on Ness's metagame as well, along with of course going to tournaments and trying even harder (though there are less here in central FL then there were in south FL before I moved to college). Who else is willing to try even harder to improve Ness's standing?

 

[ColinJF]

The SBR tier list is pretty much a joke and impressing the SBR shouldn't be our main goal as players.

Ness's poor placement on the list has less to do with tournament results and more to do with some of the people who voted in the SBR not having a clue what they were talking about. Consider this quote by Umbreon, an exemplary member of the SBR:

Lucas KOs lower, doesn't get gimped on recovery, has more disjointed hitboxes, a usable wavedash, more range, all 3 smashes are better, better specials, same movement and weight, and no real disadvantage when compared to Ness in any way. Apparently Ness has better "combos" but this is false because Brawl has so few combos anyway. Lucas is the superior character in every aspect.

I doubt tournament standings or metagame advancements will do much to convince people who think Ness is just a worse Lucas (Ness is actually better than Lucas, but even if you disagreed with that, it should be trivial to see that he isn't just a worse Lucas).



That being said advancing Ness's metagame and placing well in tournaments are important goals in their own right.

 

[Brinzy]

Honestly, how can everyone call it a joke? What, because we don't agree with it?

For the record, Ike isn't a terrible character. It doesn't matter if there aren't many good Ike players - he still hits hard and has massive disjointed attacks, a great jab, and an excellent defensive game.

This isn't to say that Ness can't be higher... but honestly, it's not like we should be surprised at where he is on the list. The fact of the matter is that he has problems with so much of top/high tier that we know he probably could only get mid at best... and that said, the middle tiers can deal with him in a similar way that the high tiers can, and he isn't exactly anyone's "DO NOT FIGHT" list.

That said, the fact that Lucas and Ness are side by side when they're vastly different characters says something about the representation and metagame of the kids... and how much the SBR were willing to delve into low tier.

 

[Gaussis]

I actually saw this coming (both Lucas being one above Ness and both Ness and Lucas in low tier). It isn't so much that Ness has problems with high tiers (which aren't that much of a deal anyway with proper precaution save a few). I personally think that this tier list needs much work for it to become reliable.

 

[Gindler]

Yeah I was a bit upset, I knew he'd be above yoshi but I at least expected Ness to be bottom of mid tier. Especially with his awesome mindgames (I think they're one of the best in the game). I have noticed that MK and Snake aren't too bad of a matchup with ness, but G&W is a major pain for me (like the WORST matchup). But hmmm, I don't really contribute to the tier list as I don't place like ever. But I'm willing to try harder.

Would playing yoshi and ness contribute to ness in the off chance I placed somehow?

I could look for some ATs when I'm bored, with all those weird PK attacks there has to be some weird "glitches" in there.

 

[ColinJF]

Game & Watch isn't bad for Ness, you just need to learn the match up. If you are new to playing against Game & Watch you can make mistakes like unshielding before the last hit of the turtle or other things... it's a match you you really need to be familiar with more so than some others.

 

[Brinzy]

Game & Watch isn't bad for Ness, you just need to learn the match up.

I can't believe you still sincerely believe this. It's a bad match-up for Ness, period. Any match-up where someone outperforms Ness in the air isn't a good one for Ness, and 100% of the time, someone who performs better in the air also has a better ground game than Ness. His B moves are held in place by G&W's Down B (and hell, even if he just Down B's the tail of PK Thunder, he's 1) getting invincibility frames and 2) loaded with a low kill % move that comes out on frame 1). G&W's smashes HURT, big time. His tilts are good, his d-throw is excellent (and I think he can actually kill with the other throws, but I'm not entirely sure because no G&W ever tries it), and he can approach with relative ease or play defensively with relative ease. You're the only person I know who thinks this is an even match-up, and for good reason...

 

[EDMartyr]

Ness is at a disadvantage against G&W. There is no doubt about that.

I wasn't all that surprised about where Ness is placed on the SBR tier list (I figured the highest he would be is at the bottom of mid).

I think Ness has a lot of potential and that he could move up in time...but that depends on all of us Ness users.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Ness has alot of problems as a character despite being really fun to play. He's a "groove" character in much the same sense that Diddy Kong is. Ness needs a setup (this is usually Fair or PK Fire) to then chain together very nice looks "combos" and damage. Once in this position he can pressure and edge guard very effectively. The problem is, Ness is much more easily knocked out of his "groove" than other character fo this nature and in some matchups, unless the opponent makes a mistake, he might not be able to get it back at all. For example, if Metaknight interupts Ness in the middle of one of these chains with a Fair and proceeds to shuttle loop him over the edge, Ness is probably going to die. Not might, it's very very likely. Why? Because in this matchup his recovery is absolute balls.

In fact, his recovery account for alot of his problems. ROB, Pit, Meta, Kirby, D3, Lucas, (and too a lesser extent: Wolf, Fox and Falco) have the dumbest ways to gimp Ness. The multijumpers can just hop out in front of his thunder and cackle as he falls to his doom, with D3 being able to actually stop it with Waddle Dees, and Lucas can absorb it. The Spacies have the unique ability of being able to hop out and reflect it but have can usually only do that safely close to the edge. Unlike Lucas, Ness doesn't even have a tether to help save him here.

You add onto all of this laggy specials, laggy smashes and some mediocre range and you begin to see why Ness is just so bad. All that said I ****ing love him and love to play as him as I always have since the days of 64. I'd take him over Lucas any day. Ness has a great air game at least and his tilts are nice. his smashes, while generally laggy (except Dsmash) have nice disjointed hitboxes and his Dair is fantastic. Honestly though, I don't see him moving up more than a couple of spaces, possibly squeaking into Mid-tier unless he finds himself some revolutionary ATs.

 

[ColinJF]

I can't believe you still sincerely believe this. It's a bad match-up for Ness, period. Any match-up where someone outperforms Ness in the air isn't a good one for Ness, and 100% of the time, someone who performs better in the air also has a better ground game than Ness. His B moves are held in place by G&W's Down B (and hell, even if he just Down B's the tail of PK Thunder, he's 1) getting invincibility frames and 2) loaded with a low kill % move that comes out on frame 1). G&W's smashes HURT, big time. His tilts are good, his d-throw is excellent (and I think he can actually kill with the other throws, but I'm not entirely sure because no G&W ever tries it), and he can approach with relative ease or play defensively with relative ease. You're the only person I know who thinks this is an even match-up, and for good reason...

Actually if he absorbs the tail of pk thunder he doesn't get a low damage kill move, he gets an Oil Panic so weak it's not worth avoiding (it won't kill until high damage). Also absorbing the tail of pk thunder still combos into pk thunder 2 , killing Game & Watch at obscenely low percentages. Not to mention Oil Panic only comes out on frame 1 at point blank range... just keep your distance and you can block it on reaction.

Ness's forward smash outranges all of Game & Watch's smashes that "HURT, big time". If you learn to tech, the best Game & Watch can get out of his down throw is a dash attack... it's not that good. Also he can't kill with his throws until well over 300%.

And I'm not the only one who thinks this is neutral, Simna does as well.


I can see why people would think this is a bad match up though. There are some things about Mr. Game & Watch you really need to be familiar with to fight him well, like learning the timing to tech his down throw, or knowing that Oil Panic comes out gradually, not all at once, or learning how many hits the turtle has, etc. etc.

Also some of the above posts have misinformation. Ness's recovery isn't particularly bad and you shouldn't be being gimped regularly in almost all match ups, among other things.

 

[Levitas]

While simna's cool and everything, take what he says with a grain of salt. The simna I listen to is the one that says "Ness is underrepresented" not "Ness is good".

And mow was right on every point he made, which isn't to say that lucas is strictly better.

 

[ColinJF]

I'm not sure how you can agree with "Lucas is the superior character in every aspect" among other things but whatever. Umbreon is far from the only person in the SBR anyway, but since we don't get any public insight into how the tier list was constructed, it could easily be representative of the thinking used... and that thinking doesn't really care for tournament results, which is even worse than ranking Ness low because of his poor tournament representation (which is I think what people were assuming was the reason for his ranking).

 

[Levitas]

Still, as mow played ness in melee, I'd be surprised if he were the one that was most responsible for knocking ness the hardest.

I could ask the people I know in the smash backroom about how the decisions were made.

 

[Tyr_03]

Lucas and Ness deserve low tier. Accept it. They both have some awful matchups. They should be pretty close on the tier list. They're very different but fair about the same in a competitive environment. I personally think Lucas has a slightly better shot in competition because he has a few better matchups than Ness. But it's by a very small margin.

 

[Wave⁂]

I'm very "meh." about this.

On one hand, who cares? On the other, Ness got higher up on the Melee tier after a while.

And on the third hand, who cares?

 

[cutter]

Game & Watch isn't bad for Ness, you just need to learn the match up. If you are new to playing against Game & Watch you can make mistakes like unshielding before the last hit of the turtle or other things... it's a match you you really need to be familiar with more so than some others.

This is exactly why I stopped debating the G&W/Ness matchup on allisbrawl. It was pointless having logical arguments get rejected with BS. The entire G&W community (in other words, NOT JUST ME) is in agreement that G&W pulverizes Ness.

BTW, you can shield the turtle all the way but you will get shieldstabbed by the landing hitbox.

 

[PKSkyler]

at my local tournament scene I see Ness is probably the most used low tier. there are like 3 people at least who use him, even Hall who got 1st place at last tourney with his Snake+Ness and high up in doubles with his Ness and Lucas team.

This is exactly why I stopped debating the G&W/Ness matchup on allisbrawl. It was pointless having logical arguments get rejected with BS. The entire G&W community (in other words, NOT JUST ME) is in agreement that G&W pulverizes Ness.

ummm..duh....every Ness main listen up....G&W versus Ness is like, as bad as Ness vs Marth.

 

[cutter]

ummm..duh....every Ness main listen up....G&W versus Ness is like, as bad as Ness vs Marth.

LMAO tell that to Simna.

G&W/Ness isn't as bad as Marth/Ness because Marth 0-deaths Ness with one grab.

 

[Levitas]

G&W capitalizes on ness's weaknesses and beats some of his strong points.

It's 80:20 Ness's favor.

 

[Masky]

G&W capitalizes on ness's weaknesses and beats some of his strong points.

It's 80:20 Ness's favor.

...you mean G&W's favor?

 

[The Real Inferno]

As for Tech Rolling out of GaW's dthrow, the GaW mains learned a long time ago that people can tech roll out of that and just take the 50/50 shot of hitting you with their ludicrously powerful up smash by tech chasing you.

 

[TKD]

Originally Posted by Umbreon (Mia)
Lucas KOs lower, doesn't get gimped on recovery, has more disjointed hitboxes, a usable wavedash, more range, all 3 smashes are better, better specials, same movement and weight, and no real disadvantage when compared to Ness in any way. Apparently Ness has better "combos" but this is false because Brawl has so few combos anyway. Lucas is the superior character in every aspect.

hahahaha wow...Lucas is only good at doubles lol...I don't know which character is better, but I like Ness. He's cool. And more fun, to me.

 

[ColinJF]

As for Tech Rolling out of GaW's dthrow, the GaW mains learned a long time ago that people can tech roll out of that and just take the 50/50 shot of hitting you with their ludicrously powerful up smash by tech chasing you.

This doesn't work. Ness can shield, roll, or spot dodge before the up smash hits. In case you don't realise there is a difference between teching and rolling after missing the tech. What you want to is tech, not roll after missing the tech.

As I said above, the only thing Game & Watch can get out of a down throw is a dash attack.

(By the way, cutter, the turtle won't shield stab Ness at full shield energy, and like everybody he can also angle his shield down or roll behind the turtle. Note that rolling behind him is not the same thing as rolling away.)

Also Marth doesn't zero to death Ness.

 

[panique365]

TR4Q so I don't really care

 

[cutter]

This doesn't work. Ness can shield, roll, or spot dodge before the up smash hits. In case you don't realise there is a difference between teching and rolling after missing the tech. What you want to is tech, not roll after missing the tech.

As I said above, the only thing Game & Watch can get out of a down throw is a dash attack.

(By the way, cutter, the turtle won't shield stab Ness at full shield energy, and like everybody he can also angle his shield down or roll behind the turtle. Note that rolling behind him is not the same thing as rolling away.)

Also Marth doesn't zero to death Ness.

Seriously, what is the point of even continuing? -_-

 

[Brinzy]

Actually if he absorbs the tail of pk thunder he doesn't get a low damage kill move, he gets an Oil Panic so weak it's not worth avoiding (it won't kill until high damage). Also absorbing the tail of pk thunder still combos into pk thunder 2 , killing Game & Watch at obscenely low percentages. Not to mention Oil Panic only comes out on frame 1 at point blank range... just keep your distance and you can block it on reaction.

It has three hitboxes. 1, 8 and 14 are those hitboxes. A move that comes out on frame 8 isn't typically easy to react to, especially considering how G&W likes to set up to hit with the move.

Also, the move doesn't kill as early as I expected it to, but it still hits for 18%. Failing to tech a d-throw or just doing any normal screw-up with a roll or whatever earns you an 18% move that comes out fast anyway and can really only be predicted and not reacted to. (Why would G&W want to try and hit with the final hitbox?)

Ness's forward smash outranges all of Game & Watch's smashes that "HURT, big time".

Whoopee, Ness can hit two pixels farther than G&W's Dsmash and his Fsmash, both which are already superior to begin with. Who fights G&W's smash with Ness's bat, again?

If you learn to tech, the best Game & Watch can get out of his down throw is a dash attack... it's not that good. Also he can't kill with his throws until well over 300%.

D-throw is a good throw. There's a reason why it's called a "tech-chase." Good for you if you can tech it just about every single time. You're still going to enter a tech-chase, as opposed to Ness's d-throw, which you can always minimize by airdodging. I think that a throw that lays you down flat (hell, mindgame with it and throw somewhere else and then d-throw other times) and can setup for other good options (like your dash attack... or another grab, or a tilt/smash). They're more reliable follow-ups than any of Ness's grabs, honestly.

And I'm not the only one who thinks this is neutral, Simna does as well.

Remind me why this matters.


Also, I love how everyone who plays a character lower on the list spit out "I DON'T CARE, TR4Q AAJAJAJA" immediately, but those in the top don't say this.

 

[ColinJF]

Remind me why this matters

I was responding to you saying I am the only one who thinks this (it isn't true).

Game & Watch's down throw is just not that good versus Ness... the best he can get is a dash attack and that isn't terrifying. Ness's throws are way better than Mr. Game & Watch's (you should be using up or forward throw at low damage, not down throw, with Ness).

You don't seem very familiar with this match up at all honestly (or maybe you just need to practice your teching).

In my experience Game & Watch is not a difficult match up, and I don't see the need to invent difficult match ups when Ness has actual difficult match ups (e.g. Marth, Snake, and Meta Knight to a lesser degree). But I guess what matters is really what is difficult for you anyway, and if you find Game & Watch difficult, that is a legitimate concern since it's something you have to work on if you are going to play Ness versus Game & Watch (but it seems you just aren't familiar with the match up).

 

[cutter]

I was responding to you saying I am the only one who thinks this (it isn't true).

Game & Watch's down throw is just not that good versus Ness... the best he can get is a dash attack and that isn't terrifying.

Or... he can unload the bucket which comes out on frame 1.

In my experience Game & Watch is not a difficult match up, and I don't see the need to invent difficult match ups when Ness has actual difficult match ups (e.g. Marth, Snake, and Meta Knight to a lesser degree).

Wow.

I don't even feel like responding to that.

 

[ColinJF]

That last comment wasn't an argument, it was just a comment on my own experience. So there's really no need to respond to it.

 

[cutter]

That last comment wasn't an argument, it was just a comment on my own experience. So there's really no need to respond to it.

Personal experience does not dictate how well a character can do overall. I can beat Snake pretty easily in my area but does that mean G&W has it good against Snake? Definately not.

 

[FuPoo]

to be honest i love ness even more, just cause hes down there. the lower the better

for the people that actually -care- about tier lists, it gives me a good reason to say you god knocked by a low tier character haha

 

[Earthbound360]

My posts seem to attract elitists who enjoy shooting down my ideas but I'll post about this anyways lol.

First of all, as you might guess, I disagree with Ness' placement.

First of all, his matchups are NOT horrid. G&W and Marth are the worst of his high tier matchups. Snake and MK, the highest of the list, do not destroy Ness. Ness also has some favorable ones like King Dedede, and some others in the high tier like Pikachu and the Icys. He does have some bad ones, but likewise, he does have some good ones, niether very extreme.

Deathgrab if that's the reasoning is very overrated and hardly worth enforcing anymore.

Ness is underrated of course, and underplayed. Being under Ike Sheik and Peach heavily dissapoints me. Ness is not a bad character. Low tier means characters in this tier are trash and not tourney worthy. Ness? ...no

This tier list seems HEAVILY based off of tourney results, which Ness seemed to have divebombed in after a certain point, somewhere near the making of this list. He was once around the middle of the ranks, then seemed to just give up.

To me, it seems TOO heavily based off of tournament results. If you just look at the list and the currnt rankings, it looks way too similar in many places. But then again, a handful of characters like Luigi have made it into a good position without good tourney results.

If its matchups thats the problem, why is Bowser so high? He's got a lot of bad matachups.

Ness DOES have a good moveset potential. His throws are great along with his aerial game. His need for a setup attack sounds like bull to me. Ness has many ways to deal with enemies outside of starting with an fair or PKF.

Much of what Mow said I disagree with. Lucas having all smashes better is wrong. Ness' usmash has many more uses. Ness wins in the contest for KOing at lower percents also, and Ness has a better range of moves for KOing well. He also has better throws, a grab, and aerials for sure. Specials going to Lucas? Maybe not. Even Id say. Lucas wins PKF, Ness gets PKT2, PKT is even, PSIM Lucas, and Freeze is not as good as Flash.

So theres another stupid Ness Lucas comparison that I am getting off topic again on.

Ness is at least mid tier in my opinion. He's not a bad character. The low tourney results are what shot him down more. I feel that Ness is certainly capable and will be midtier eventually.

I think this tier list is actually a bit strange. Not just cuz Ness is low. Bowser is strangely high. Olimar and Toony can be higher. LUigi suffers from a grab infinite and low tourney results even moreso than Ness yet he still makes it high up.

 

[goodkid]

Ness will move up with time, people really miss judge Ness because of his recovery. They take one look at his recovery & say that he is bad just because of his recovery, which we all clearly know is not true. He has tons of priority & his f-tilt can even go through MK's tornado! He has some decent match-ups with the high tiers, but their not the best. Once people try out Ness for themselves, discover how good he really is, and we prove how good he really is, he will eventually be mid-high tier.

 

[Gindler]

Isn't Ness Top Tier? A sig told me that.

 

[Dxt XXII]

People like Ness are just underplayed. He's one of the most fun people to play as. Thing is, if people don't use him, he will not win many tourneys, and his metagame will not advance as fast as say, Snake or MK.

 

[Ref]

This is why Bowser is so high up...

We all know Bowser's grab release is awesome, but how do we know what works out of a grab and what doesn't?

I got an idea from looking at Sliq's thread awhile back. He said that we needed some sort of organized list of Bowser's grab release options. Well, I took it upon myself to help out the community and I'm going to share my findings. If you guys have anything to contribute or spot any errors, let me know! (I hope this makes up for some of the stupidity in my previous posts.)

Bowser

Jab
Bowser can jab another Bowser right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

Fire Breath
Because your enemy is so big, it would be a good idea to constantly change where you're shooting your Fire. If you alternate between firing upwards and downwards, it becomes very difficult to DI out of.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Yup, Bowser can chaingrab himself. Just grab and when Bowser breaks out, use a dashing grab to grab him again. Because of Bowser's huge size, he's very easy to chaingrab this way. Note that if he gets a jump release, you probably won't be able to grab him again, but you can try.

Captain Falcon

Jab
Bowser can jab Falcon right out of a grab release. Falcon is so manly that none of Bowser's tilts will work though.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Falcon is difficult to chaingrab since he recovers from being grabbed very fast. After he breaks free from your grab, you have to dash grab him immediately! to grab him again. If you're late, then Falcon will be able to escape quite easily. Overall, Falcon is one of the characters that Bowser will have difficulty chaingrabbing. Practice makes perfect though.

Charizard

Jab
Bowser can jab Charizard right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! The timing is a bit strict on this, but it's not that bad if you get a little practice in.

Dtilt
You're going to need good timing to consistently hit Charizard with this. Make sure you pull off your Dtilt as soon as possible.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Bowser has a standing chaingrab against Charizard. As soon as Charizard breaks free from your grab, just grab again. There's a certain rhythm to it, but it's not that difficult to learn. A bit of practice makes this easy.

Diddy Kong

Jab
Bowser can jab Diddy right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! However, you need to move forward a tiny bit in order to actually grab Diddy. Always remember to move forward slightly, then use the Klaw.

Donkey Kong

For some strange reason, nothing works on DK. ><

Falco

Jab
Bowser can jab Falco right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! The Dtilt is probably better though.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too! Smash that space animal!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Smash that space animal into the ground!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
As soon as Falco breaks out of your grab, use a dashing grab to grab him again. The timing for this chaingrab isn't too bad, so it's not that difficult to learn how to do this.

Fox

Jab
Bowser can jab Fox right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! It works well a surprise KO attack.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Smash that space animal into the ground!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Pretty similar to Falco's really.

Mr. Game and Watch

Jab
Jabbing Game and Watch is weird. Sometimes both jabs will hit, or sometimes only the 1st or 2nd will hit. Hmm...

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Timing takes a while to get used to though.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Chaingrabbing Game and Watch is a pain. He recovers from grabs very fast, and he's prone to jump releases. You're going to have to time your dashing grabs perfectly in order to chaingrab Game and Watch sucessfully.

Ganondorf

Jab
Bowser can jab Ganondorf right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Ganondorf before he can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Just wait until he breaks out of your grab, then use your dashing grab to grab him again. If he jump releases, then it might be possible to chase him down and grab him again, but I haven't tested that throughly.

Ice Climbers

Jab
Bowser can jab the Ice Climbers right out of a grab release. Kind of useless though, since Nana can just hit you while you're hitting Popo.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Useless though, since you're fighting the Ice Climbers. Use it only when Nana's dead.

Dtilt
Use it only when Nana's dead. As you can see, grab releases suck majorly against the Ice Climbers.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! You have to step forward slightly for it to hit though. As always, don't use it when Nana's around.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Oh the irony...Bowser can chaingrab the Ice Climbers! Obviously, the chaingrab is useless if Nana's around, but once she's dead, the chaingrab works quite easily on Popo. Just do a dashing grab every time Popo breaks free. If anything, try this because it's funny. People will probably laugh at seeing an Ice Climber getting chaingrabbed. It's even funnier since it's Bowser doing the grabbing.

Ike

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Too bad jabs and the Dtilt don't.

Dtilt
This works fairly well against Ike provided you get the timing down.

The Klaw
More forward slighly when using the Klaw, that guarantees that you'll be able to grab Ike before he regains control.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Very easy chaingrab. Just use a dash grab every time he breaks out. There's no strict timing or anything, so you might be able to get Ike to very high percentages with this. (provided he doesn't jump break)

Ivysaur

Jab
Bowser can jab Ivysaur right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt is pretty difficult to hit on Ivysaur consistantly. That's because Ivysaur recovers from being grabbed fairly quick. You're going have to be able to pull off the Ftilt as soon as he breaks out of your grab.

Dtilt
Same as the Ftilt. You just need good timing.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Remember that you have to pull it off really fast.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Bowser has a standing chaingrab against Ivysaur. As soon as Ivysaur breaks free from your grab, just grab again. If you want to do it the simple way, just hold down your shield button and mash attack as fast as you can. Note that Ivysaur can escape by getting a jump release.

Jigglypuff

Jab
Bowser can jab Jiggly right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! It works pretty well on Jiggly.

Dtilt
Since Jigglypuff lands really weird after being grabbed, this may not work all the time. Hmm....

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Like the Dtilt, it's hard to chaingrab Jiggly since she lands really wierd. (This makes the timing difficult.) In any case, after Jiggly breaks out of your grab, grab her again with a dashing grab. Note that Jiggly loves getting jump releases, which ruins your chaingrab.

King Dedede

Jab
Bowser can jab Dedede right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Dedede before she can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too! Too bad Dedede is so heavy that it doesn't kill as early as I'd like.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Sweet delicious irony. Bowser can chaingrab Dedede! All you need to do is use your dashing grab immediately out of a grab release. I wouldn't recommend using Bowser against Dedede though, especially since Dedede's infinite grab is 1000x better against you then your chaingrab is against him.

Kirby

Jab
Bowser can jab Kirby right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! I think it's better to use the Dtilt against Kirby though.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too! It kills Kirby at fairly low percents.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
This is absolutely hilarious, another chaingrab for Bowser! You can grab Kirby, let him go, then use a standing grab to grab him again. It's kind of like Dedede's infinite. Note that this is foiled by a jump release. The timing is a bit tricky, but it's still usable.

Link

Jab
Bowser can jab Link right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Link before he can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

THE EFFING BOWSER BOMB!!!!!!
Yup, Bowser can use the Bowser Bomb on Link as well! As long as you can use the Bomb immediately after the grab release, it should work. The timing isn't all that difficult either.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Another chaingrab for Bowser! When Link breaks out, use your dashing grab to grab him again. The timing is pretty easy.

Lucario

Jab
Bowser can jab Lucario right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Lucario before he can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Like Peach, Lucario doesn't move that much when released from a grab. So once he breaks free from your grab, you can use your dashing grab to grab him again. A standing grab might work too, but I suggest you use the dashing one. Lucario is chaingrabbed easily by Bowser, so have fun.

Lucas

Jab
Bowser can jab Lucas right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Lucas before he can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

THE EFFING BOWSER BOMB!!!!!!
This sucks for Lucas. Many of you know this by now, but Lucas suffers from a huge amount of stun after he's released from a grab. That makes him an easy target for...well...everything. The Bowser Bomb is definately easy to hit Lucas with.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Yes, Bowser can changrab Lucas. It's all thanks to Lucas's huge amounts of grab release stun. All you have to do is grab Lucas, pummell him until he breaks out, then do a dashing grab to grab him again. It won't make a difference if he does a jump release, because...

JUMP RELEASE CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Yes, Bowser has a jump release chaingrab as well! If Lucas breaks out of Bowser's grab with a jump release, you can chase him down and grab Lucas before he hits the ground, similar to Yoshi's chaingrab. The timing is actually easier then it looks.

Weegee

Jab
Bowser can jab Luigi right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Luigi before he can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

THE EFFING BOWSER BOMB!!!!!!
Yes, I kid you not. The Bowser Bomb works! However, it is VERY difficult to do. You need to input the comand for the Bowser Bomb immediately after Luigi breaks out of your grab. There's hardly any room for error here, the window of opportunity is only like 2 or 3 frames. If you can pull it off though...then that's just awesome.

Mario

Jab
Bowser can jab Mario right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! It's pretty much the same as doing it to Luigi, except it feels a little easier to pull it off on Mario.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

Fire Breath
You must breathe fire directly downwards for this to work. If done right out of a grab release, Mario will be doused in flames and will have very few options to get out.
- If he shields, then the fire will distance Mario from you, shrinking his shield in the process.
- If he spot dodges, the fire will still hit him.
- If he tries to roll behind Bowser, the fire will still hit him since you're shooting the fire downwards.
- Rolling away from Bowser is the only way out of it.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Grab Mario, let him break out, then grab him again with a dsashing grab. This is one of Bowser's easier chaingrabs. Practice for a while until you get the timing right.

Marth

Jab
Bowser can jab Marth right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! It's not as good as the Dtilt though.

Dtilt
This works fairly well against Marth provided you get the timing down.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Thankfully, chaingrabbing Marth is pretty easy. Grab him, let him break out, then dash grab him. There's no strict timing involved, so it's pretty fun to do this.

Meta Knight

Jab
Bowser can jab Meta Knight right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! I think the Dtilt works better on Meta Knight though.

Dtilt
Use this to kill Meta Knight at low percents.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Grab Meta, let him break out, then grab him again with a dsashing grab. Timing is everything. If you can train yourself to do this constantly, you'll have one more tool to use against Meta Knight.

JUMP RELEASE CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Apparently you can jump release chaingrab Meta Knight as well! It's done just like Yoshi's, just chase him down and do a dashing grab.

Ness

Jab
Bowser can jab Ness right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Ness before he can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

THE EFFING BOWSER BOMB!!!!!!
Poor Ness. He's cursed with the same stun that Lucas has. That pretty much means that you can do almost anything to him after a grab release, even a Bowser Bomb. Go forth and abuse it!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Yes, Bowser can changrab Ness. Once again, we have Ness's huge amounts of grab release stun to thank for that. In order to do it, all you have to do is grab Ness, pummel him until he breaks out, then use your dashing grab to grab him again. Of course, if Ness does a jump break, then the chaingrab will end.

Peach

Jab
Bowser can jab Peach right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Peach before she can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

The Fortress
Sometimes when Peach breaks out of Bowser's grab, she isn't pushed as far away as she usually is. I don't know what causes this, but I do know that the Fortress works if she breaks out in such a way.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Since Peach really doesn't move that much when she's released from Bowser's grab, you can use your dashing grab to grab her multiple times very easily! This is another one of Bowser's easier chaingrabs.

Campachu

Jab
Bowser can jab Pikachu right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works, but Pikachu recovers from grabs very fast, so you'll need near perfect timing for this.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! You need to move forward slightly for it to hit Pikachu though.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Pikachu is really hard to chaingrab since he has very good grab recovery. Chaingrabing Pikachu is like chaingrabbing any other character though. When he breaks free from your grab, use a dashing grab and grab him again. You're going to need very good timing with this, otherwise Pikachu will regain control and be able to dodge your grab.

Captain Olimar

Jab
Bowser can jab Olimar right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! As long as you can pull it off fast enough, Bowser should be able to punch Olimar before she can recover.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too! This is excellent for killing Olimar.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! you need to move forward slightly for it to hit though.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Bowser has a standing infinite against Olimar! Just grab, let him go, then grab him again! Note that Olimar can break free with a jump release easily.

Pit

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Pit slides too far for the Jabs and Dtilt to work though.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! You need to move forward slightly for you to reach Pit though. If you can do it fast enough, Pit won't have time to dodge it.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
The timing is a bit strict, but it's not all that bad. Just make sure you can dash grab him fast enough.

R.O.B.

Jab
Bowser can jab R.O.B. right out of a grab release. This works 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Make sure you do it fast though, otherwise R.O.B. can spot dodge into his Down Smash.

Dtilt
Make sure you do it fast, otherwise R.O.B. can spot dodge.

The Klaw
You need to move a little bit forward for it to work. Other then that, make sure you can do it before R.O.B. can dodge.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Funny stuff right here. Just make sure you do your dashing grab as fast as you can, and R.O.B shouldn't be able to escape. If you mess up, then R.O.B will be able to jab you or spot dodge. Overall, R.O.B is one of the harder characters to chaingrab.

Samus

Jab
Bowser can jab Samus right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Too bad the Dtilt doesn't.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
This is one of Bowser's easier chaingrabs. Just do a dashing grab every time Samus breaks out. And of course, practice.

Shiek

Jab
Bowser can jab Shiek right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The timing for this is a bit tricky, and you need to be able to pull of the Ftilt very fast for this to work. Personally, the

Dtilt works easier for me against Shiek.

Dtilt
Abuse this. It works wonders on Shiek.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
For some bizarre reason, Bowser can also chaingrab Shiek! This requires some good timing though, and you need to use your dashing grab almost immediately after she breaks out. There's little room for error here. Practice makes perfect.

Chuck Norris

Jab
Bowser can jab Snake right out of a grab release. This works 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Too bad Snake is so heavy, otherwise this would've been a good killing move...

The Klaw
You need to move a little bit forward for it to work.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Nothing special here. Just do a dashing grab every time Snake breaks out. No fancy timing is needed.

Sonic

Jab
Bowser can jab Sonic right out of a grab release. This works 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Just make sure you do it fast.


The Klaw
The Klaw works pretty easily. Just immediately after Sonic breaks out.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
No fancy timing required. Just grab, and when he breaks free, use a dashing grab.

Squirtle

Jab
Bowser can jab Squirtle right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt is pretty difficult to hit on Squirtle consistantly. If your timing isn't perfect, Squirtle can jab you.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! You need to move forward slightly to get the Klaw to hit though.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
You know the drill. When he breaks out, use your dashing grab. Note that sometimes Squirtle gets deposited in weird areas when he breaks free from your grab, so the timing varies.

JUMP RELEASE CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Yes, Bowser has a jump release chaingrab as well! If Squirtle breaks free with a jump release, chase him down and grab him again!

Toon Link

Jab
Bowser can jab Toon Link right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! A bit harder to hit with then the Dtilt though.

Dtilt
Probably better on Toon Link then the Ftilt. It feels easier to hit with as well.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Use it for damage, KOing, or even a Bowsercide attempt!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
This is another one of those difficult chaingrabs. If your timing isn't perfect, he'll be able to escape. Practice helps a lot with this one.

Wario

Jab
Bowser can jab Wario right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too!

The Klaw
The Klaw works! It can also be used out of a jump release.

Fair
Only works during Wario's jump release. Smacking fat men in the air has never been more fun.

Utilt
Only works during Wario's jump release. You need to move forward a step to get the attack to connect.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
I fight a Wario main on a regular basis, and I can confirm that works. It's not that difficult either, just grab him whenever he breaks out. Hell, you could use either a standing grab or a running grab, whatever floats your boat.

JUMP RELEASE CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Mmac made this discovery a while back, and I thank him for bringing this to my attention. If Wario breaks out of your grab by a jump release, you can grab him again while he's comng back down. This is a bit difficult though, especially if Wario still has his 2nd jump. If he has his 2nd jump, then he may be able to use it to escape. However, as long as you have perfect timing, there's nothing Wario can do.

Wolf

Jab
Bowser can jab Wolf right out of a grab release. This will work 100% of the time.

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Use it whenever you need a surprise KO.

Dtilt
Bowser's awesome Dtilt works too! It's a bit harder to hit on Wolf then the other space animals though.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! Smash that space animal into the ground!

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
A bit easier to chaingrab then the other space animals. There's not much else to say really.

Yoshi

Yoshi is near impossible to attack after a grab release since Yoshi can DI away from nearly everything you throw at him. The only thing that comes close to working is Bowser's jab, but that doesn't even work 100% against Yoshi.

Zelda

Ftilt
Yup, the Ftilt is the only thing that works on Zelda. She slides too far for the Dtilt and Jabs to work.

Zero Suit Samus

Ftilt
The Ftilt works! Too bad the Dtilt doesn't though, ZSS slides too much.

The Klaw
The Klaw works! However, it's a bit difficult to land since ZSS lands slghtly out of your grab range. Like using the Klaw on Diddy, you need to step forward ever so slightly in order to grab her. If you time it right, she still won't be able to react.

CHAINGRAB!!!!!!
Another chaingrab! This one isn't too hard, just make sure you use your dashing grabs as soon as ZSS breaks out of your grab. If you're not fast enough, she might be able to escape with her jabs or her Flip jump.

Also back to Ness.... I'm not surprised actually....

Nobody knows what Ness can do because nobody has seen what Ness can do.... Not to say that Ness is a very good character.

And finally this:

I'm very "meh." about this.

On one hand, who cares? On the other, Ness got higher up on the Melee tier after a while.

And on the third hand, who cares?

 

[FuPoo]

wow that list is very nifty

 

[Gaussis]

I dunno about you guys but I wouldn't shun any of the characters that placed higher than Ness or those that placed in a weird position because sadly they get enough shunning already (look at Ike...). We all know that Ness is not only underplayed, but misunderstood as well. I thought we had already gotten through the whole "easy to gimp" thing. I can't believe that people still say that.

Ref, I thought that it was clear that Bowser had no chaingrab on Ness. I'm confused.

 

[Neon Ness]

Our club is having a "Low Tier Tourney" soon. But when the allowed characters list came out, Lucas and Ness weren't on it, because they were at the top.

*siiiiigh* You know, I'm really starting to think we have no place in this world. Being a MOTHER main can be so depressing sometimes...

 

[Gaussis]

I told you Ness was misunderstood.

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