Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over

[BananaBolts]

@THE_MAAFIA

If you tag me, edit your post, and tag someone else, I'll still get the notification.

 

[sman865]

the first is what a tier list should be.

This. There needs to be a meta tier list thread or something. Otherwise there can't really be a productive conversation.

Is a tier list...
1. How good characters could possibly be
2. How good characters are considering how difficult to operation they are
3. How well characters place in tournament
4. Anything else, these are just examples

Making it specific will make discussion much more fruitful.

 

[MrMarbles]

This. There needs to be a meta tier list thread or something. Otherwise there can't really be a productive conversation.

Is a tier list...
1. How good characters could possibly be
2. How good characters are considering how difficult to operation they are
3. How well characters place in tournament
4. Anything else, these are just examples

Making it specific will make discussion much more fruitful.

the problem is no one can ever agree on what a tier list should encompass

 

[BananaBolts]

Another problem is that a lot of theory crafting is involved in a tier list that takes into account a character's total potential. This leads to even more disagreement. Looking at tourney placement is also a poor decision because of legitimate reasons for a subpar performance and sometimes you just aren't playing to full capacity.

 

[malva00]

()

 

[lord narwhal]

Another problem is that a lot of theory crafting is involved in a tier list that takes into account a character's total potential. This leads to even more disagreement. Looking at tourney placement is also a poor decision because of legitimate reasons for a subpar performance and sometimes you just aren't playing to full capacity.

guess we just can't have a tier list then huh

honestly, Isai, Boom, and even LD demonstrate Fox as being clearly one of the very best characters in the game. Isai's Fox is what gives him tier 2 IMO, and LD has thoroughly demonstrated that Fox is actually phenomenal on Dream Land. I think looking at the top players for every character is a decent way to craft a tier list.

 

[Kahnu]

()

what is this

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Why the **** was there a second topic made,loll in all honesty, I like Isai's list outside of switching Jiggs and yoshi

 

[Wintermelon43]

Going by the posts here, this is what the tier list is wanted to be:

============

 

[BananaBolts]

I think Puff would definitely be moved down a slot if more people played lower tiers. Isn't her Yoshi MU crap for her? If so, the 'recent' influx of good Yoshi's might warrant her getting placed lower than that.

 

[M4TT]

yoshi above fox hurts me

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

The fact that Kirby exists is the problem with yoshi by comparison

 

[Kahnu]

Why the **** was there a second topic made,loll in all honesty, I like Isai's list outside of switching Jiggs and yoshi

cause i was bored and wanted double the content ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Madao]

@ KoRoBeNiKi , would you mind if I merge these posts into your thread? I should have moved the posts to another thread earlier ;/ .

cause i was bored and wanted double the content ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Please don't do this again.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Merging either or is fine.

 

[Sedda]

this is from that grantland article. probably the best description of a tier list ever:

"This is the most astonishing aspect of Smash’s design: Not one line of the cartridge’s code has been altered since 1999, but the community’s decoding continues to change, as game theory and strategic call-and-response expose new weaknesses and strengths. It’s a metagame as rewarding as the action itself, an evolutionary process that keeps an old game eternally new."

 

[The Star King]

Isn't her Yoshi MU crap for her?

Debatable but imo no not at all.

Anyway, the more frequently z character is played in tournament, the more relevant the matchup against them becomes.

 

[BananaBolts]

I've messed around with Yoshi vs Puff and it's not as bad for Puff as I thought. She has a drill which helps to tack on damage during super armor. Yoshi's up-tilt isn't good on Puff. As long as I don't shield or get my rests super armored, the MU is fine. Air camping Yoshi is pretty effective too.

 

[felipe_9595]

Jouske thinks 5th could be Jiggs

Please don't take any theorycrafting from the Smash gods (Except Boom, he knows his stuff)

I don't even know how people that are so good (Jousuke, Isai) can have such little knowledge of the game's theory

 

[SheerMadness]

Puff can air camp the **** out of Yoshi. But the second she comes down to ground level (if she whiffs the approach) she's in huge trouble.

So yah if Jiggs is patient enough to air camp all match it's a pretty solid match up for her.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Puff can air camp the **** out of Yoshi. But the second she comes down to ground level (if she whiffs the approach) she's in huge trouble.

So yah if Jiggs is patient enough to air camp all match it's a pretty solid match up for her.

This is true, just don't get grounded because Yoshi combos pretty easy with DJC n-air/f-tilt. Fun fact, the only guaranteed follow up for yoshi with up tilt vs Jiggles and then an immediate full double jump up air. You barely have enough hitstun. In other words, one of Yoshi's good options vs. a good amount of aerial characters is nulled.

I personally like the matchup alot but it is pretty difficult. Jiggs in the air is hard to deal with, especially if they know how to deal with Eggs. If they don't it's not that hard as Jiggs can't camp that well.

Also, Jigglypuff's n-air breaks through Yoshi's double jump armor really well for some strange reason. It probably is 55-45/60-40 Yoshi but theory crafters be theory crafing. MattNF, who seemed to avoid some people at Apex, happens to know the matchup quite well but he dislikes it for Jiggles.

 

[The Star King]

Please don't take any theorycrafting from the Smash gods (Except Boom, he knows his stuff)

I don't even know how people that are so good (Jousuke, Isai) can have such little knowledge of the game's theory

This post is just so damn arrogant. Don't know what to say. Maybe you're the one with relatively little knowledge (likely, I'd say) which makes their opinions seem strange to you. But for some reason you assume you're the one who knows better.

Not saying you can't disagree with them, but outright saying they have "little knowledge of the game's theory" is just dumb and arrogant.

 

[felipe_9595]

This post is just so damn arrogant. Don't know what to say. Maybe you're the one with relatively little knowledge (likely, I'd say) which makes their opinions seem strange to you. But for some reason you assume you're the one who knows better.

Not saying you can't disagree with them, but outright saying they have "little knowledge of the game's theory" is just dumb and arrogant.

I could keep posting screenshots like this all the day, but why, i don't even care. if i am arrogant i don't even want to think about what is the that post. Combat fire with fire.

 

[Fireblaster]

I could keep posting screenshots like this all the day, but why, i don't even care. if i am arrogant i don't even want to think about what is the that post. Combat fire with fire.

I can see your point of view with Isai because there's several things I also disagree with him and think that he could be wrong on (like that post you mention on his views of tournaments and his views on hyrule as a legal stage). However, to say that he's outright bad at all theorycrafting is pushing it.

But I don't see your point with jouske. What makes him so bad at theorycrafting? Because of his tier list? Everyone has differing opinions on that.

 

[MrMarbles]

I could keep posting screenshots like this all the day, but why, i don't even care. if i am arrogant i don't even want to think about what is the that post. Combat fire with fire.

what does that prove? he doesn't care much for tournaments. He still has game knowledge.

Also i think jousuke has shown really extensive matchup knowledge in his streams. like seriously he breaks every portion of a matchup down to every detail

 

[felipe_9595]

Yeah sorry i might have pushed it a bit, i am kinda biased lol

EDIT @ Fireblaster Did you see his character complexity chart hahaha?

 

[Sedda]

yo

SK made a fireblaster kinda post and then fireblaster made a SK kinda post.

this place is strange

 

[Capos]

there's several things I also disagree with him and think that he could be wrong on (like that post you mention on his views of tournaments and his views on hyrule as a legal stage).

Those are legitimate things to disagree with, because they are opinions and have zero to do with the game's theory.

 

[Pure Royalty]

i say we ask isai, he is definitely one of the most experienced players. im sure he has his own ranking and knows the full potential of all characters

 

[BananaBolts]

i say we ask isai, he is definitely one of the most experienced players. im sure he has his own ranking and knows the full potential of all characters

Isai isn't really the deciding factor nor is he the only good player around here.

Here's Isai's tier list: (from a previous page in this same thread )
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[Sedda]

bumping this so that we can actually come up with a tier list before this thread is buried forever. there was some discussion going on here and many people got to share their perspective on certain matchups that will affect the order of the characters most.

maybe @ KoRoBeNiKi could start a new thread, or just rename this so that people know that any new posts should only include the order of the characters that they think is right and we'll finally have a new tier list maybe by the end of april (?)

 

[Kahnu]

bumping this so that we can actually come up with a tier list before this thread is buried forever. there was some discussion going on here and many people got to share their perspective on certain matchups that will affect the order of the characters most.

maybe @ KoRoBeNiKi could start a new thread, or just rename this so that people know that any new posts should only include the order of the characters that they think is right and we'll finally have a new tier list maybe by the end of april (?)

I like this. 10/10 would bump again.


Lets work on this tier list. I like it, who else?

 

[Sedda]

Yeah I guess I should do it too lol.



don't take the spaces too seriously. theyre there to make the thing easier to read

 

[Kahnu]

Yeah I guess I should do it too lol.



don't take the spaces too seriously. theyre there to make the thing easier to read

Link > DK?

Sedda pls.

 

[lord narwhal]

Link > DK?

Sedda pls.

you gave fox tier 5

 

[The Star King]

If people want a tier list to get done they should make a voting thread with deadlines, a discussion thread with no clear end in sight or creation process won't cause a tier list to magically spawn eventually

 

[yOLORIN]

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

I like this. 10/10 would bump again.


Lets work on this tier list. I like it, who else?

Looks almost perfect to me, i would swap Luigi and Ness, and, Link and DK... This may be just a matter of preference too

 

[lord narwhal]

ducky with my favorite tier list apart from mine so far

 

[Beesy]