Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over

[THE_MAAFIA]

if you think ness's combos are easy while link's aren't, you are clearly playing way too much ness

Yea I guess you're right, but it is really easy to up tilt your enemy with ness also (cause his head has invincibility frames) which makes approaches from above useless against ness, plus you can chain up tilts, then start putting in some up airs and bam, crazy amounts of damage put in. With link I can't start a combo at 0% with up tilt, Spikytorn mains link and does crazy shiz, maybe I'll see link a better way if I watch him more

 

[asianaussie]

the solution is not to walk into ness u-tilts and just hookshot the *******

 

[Sedda]

i heard that aa hookshots a lot

i guess he just likes grabbing people

 

[Saltsizzle]

What is the reason people think jigglypuff > mario? I'm just curious as to the reasons why.

Mario has shield pressure, vertical recovery, better gimping game, etc. which is why I think mario > jiggs in my mind.

 

[SheerMadness]

Stop this madness. Ness has a better neutral than Link. On dreamland anyway.

Much more maneuverable thanks to DJC tricksies and faster aerials.

Link is slow as **** and his aerials have way too much start up and cool down. Nor does he have the space he needs for his projectiles to be extremely effective. He has much more complex combos which rarely end in death and he has one of the worst gimp games on dreamland.

Arghhh Sheer is getting mad.

 

[Shears]

What is the reason people think jigglypuff > mario? I'm just curious as to the reasons why.

Mario has shield pressure, vertical recovery, better gimping game, etc. which is why I think mario > jiggs in my mind.

Isai won Apex with Jiggly. People hop on bandwagons and abandon any belief they had the second something different comes around.

LD gets top 5 with Fox while beating 2 top pikas: Fox is too good and better than pika.
Boom loses a game with falcon: Falcon sucks and should be last on the tier list.
Wizzrobe and Tacos do well with Yoshi since no one has Yoshi experience: Yoshi is one of the best characters in the game.
Dreamland only: Link and many other characters suck now.
Isai wins with Jiggly: Jiggly is better than Mario.

See how this works? If Isai @ THE_MAAFIA wins Apex with Luigi, everyone will say Luigi is better than Ness.

Most characters and matchups are underdeveloped, but everyone likes to change their mind anyway.

 

[BananaBolts]

Link is slow as **** and his aerials have way too much start up and cool down. Nor does he have the space he needs for his projectiles to be extremely effective. He has much more complex combos which rarely end in death and he has one of the worst gimp games on dreamland. .

The only aerial Link has that takes more than 6 frames to come out is f-air. As for ending lag, he often reaches the ground before the aerial ends so paired with his falling speed, it's not that bad.

His boomerang is fine on DL. The issue is when people try to use both the boomerang and the bomb at the same time. Boomerang is so versatile in neutral too. You can throw it away from you the opponent then dodge it on its return for some interesting angles, you can throw it straight at the opponent, or you can intentionally throw it past the opponent to start a combo on return or save you from getting combo'd. The only character that pressures Link too much in the neutral is Fox because he has lasers and a fast dash speed.

How does he have one of the worst gimp games on DL? His b-air is impeccably good at edgeguarding and getting the opponent offstage in the first place isn't that hard. Bomb/boomerang to grab/fair work well for setting up edgeguard situations. He can ledge hop, b-air, and re-grab ledge quickly which Ness cannot do quickly.

You mentioned complex combos. When did utilt, utilt, uair (x1 or x2), fair/up-b become a complex combo? Boomerang is nice for extending combos and it's not nearly as difficult as people like to complain about.

All of that being said, I still think that Ness has one of the better neutrals in the bottom 5 but Link still beats him out.

 

[Sedda]

lol isn't ness' best horizontal hitbox his uair?

his range is ****

 

[SheerMadness]

Come on BananaBolts be realistic dude. Not sure how one can argue about his gimp game?

He has an awful throw, no spike, he can't jump off stage and bait reactions very well, and his strongest aerials are incredibly slow.

His aerials don't even put the opponent into a recovery situation until mid to high %...

Compare that to Ness or anyone with a decent throw who can do 1 or 2 aerials into throw at low percents and force them into a recovery situation.

EDIT: I'm curious how many of you actually play Link on DL consistently vs top players? I honestly don't think I've been legitimately challenged by a Link on DL in 3-4 years. Catch them, throw them, dead. Easy 2-5 stock. Even vs other players around my skill level. It's depressingly bad for Link.

 

[Sedda]

What is the reason people think jigglypuff > mario? I'm just curious as to the reasons why.

Mario has shield pressure, vertical recovery, better gimping game, etc. which is why I think mario > jiggs in my mind.

Can someone explain to me why people still think Mario is better than Puff, other than being conservative with old tier list opinions?

Puff easily has better matchups vs the tourney relevant characters. Better vs Kirby and Yoshi, about the same vs Pikachu and Falcon (and honestly I might be being generous to Mario there, Pikachu vs Mario is truly awful, and Puff is pretty decent vs Falcon). In terms of tournament representation they are about the same, although I would argue that Puff's is a bit lower than it should be because many of her strengths overlap with, and thus are overshadowed by Kirby.

I'd also recommend considering putting Samus above DK.

 

[Kahnu]

It's a real tier list, based on what it would look like if people didn't make as many mistakes.

I really do think Fox > Pika, Fox has everything you need to beat every character, it's just that he doesn't have leeway for errors.

Yoshi > Kirby that one is hard to justify and I can see it being either way. I just think Yoshi has more potential than Kirby in the long-run, but it's a bit similar to Fox where he can't really **** up.

Mario > Falcon could have gone the other way around. It's a bit irrelevant at this point and I wasn't sure who to put 4th and who to put 5th. Overall, because I think Mario does a little better on his matchup spread, I put him in front.

Link > Jigglypuff, yes, Link is a better character than Jiggs. He's harder and trickier to play, and as for Fox/Yoshi, you have very little leeway for mistakes, even less so, maybe. But he has a very good control over the neutral game and that allows him to be able to

Post that in other thread, not here.

 

[BananaBolts]

First of all, I'll define a gimp the way I'm referring to it: a gimp is when you get your opponent offstage before they're at kill percent and then you edgeguard until they're dead. Gimps are often misconstrued to just be low percent KOs. (edit: or maybe I'm using the wrong terminology, idk)

Bomb -> read tech roll -> grab -> throw offstage -> bair * n -> successful gimp
Fair/nair -> tip of dsmash -> pivot, bair * n -> successful gimp

Alternatively you can edgeguard with projectiles but they're only good against certain characters at acceptable angles.

 

[Kahnu]

It's a real tier list, based on what it would look like if people didn't make as many mistakes.

I really do think Fox > Pika, Fox has everything you need to beat every character, it's just that he doesn't have leeway for errors.

Yoshi > Kirby that one is hard to justify and I can see it being either way. I just think Yoshi has more potential than Kirby in the long-run, but it's a bit similar to Fox where he can't really **** up.

Mario > Falcon could have gone the other way around. It's a bit irrelevant at this point and I wasn't sure who to put 4th and who to put 5th. Overall, because I think Mario does a little better on his matchup spread, I put him in front.

Link > Jigglypuff, yes, Link is a better character than Jiggs. He's harder and trickier to play, and as for Fox/Yoshi, you have very little leeway for mistakes, even less so, maybe. But he has a very good control over the neutral game and that allows him to be able to

@Mahie

This is pretty much a theoretical tier list. Look at the meta game right now, look at what places higher, what is in your opinion a better character.

Not potential, just judging from right now.

 

[SheerMadness]

Kahnu that's the fundamental problem with every tier list discussion. No one can decide what it should be based on and you've got people some people going with theoretical potential, some by actual tourney results, and others with different criteria.

Bolts a gimp is just getting someone off stage and pwning their recover at low percents.

 

[Kahnu]

Kahnu that's the fundamental problem with every tier list discussion. No one can decide what it should be based on and you've got people some people going with theoretical potential, some by actual tourney results, and others with different criteria.

Bolts a gimp is just getting someone off stage and pwning their recover at low percents.

OH CMON SHEER

MARIO WILL NEVER BE > FALCON

GOD

Sedda said: ↑
im worried that kahnu is making alternate accounts to put link in last place

@ Madao

pls check the IP's dog

 

[Madao]

Kahnu that's the fundamental problem with every tier list discussion. No one can decide what it should be based on and you've got people some people going with theoretical potential, some by actual tourney results, and others with different criteria.

I agree with this. People need to realize that the criteria isn't the same for everyone.

@ Kahnu , already done .

 

[Fireblaster]

Some people are throwing around "if no mistakes are made" as if it applied to competitive play. Players DO and WILL make mistakes. Is Fox better than Falcon if Fox makes no mistakes? Sure let's say that. Pikachu could also make himself permanently invincible the entire match by constantly UpBing and ledgecancelling these UpB's into more UpB's. Then, whenever the situation arises that pikachu can attack with 0% risk to himself, he will do so. If Pikachu makes no mistakes, he is untouchable.

SSB64 (or any other fighting game) is not like chess. There's no one moment of time where you have access to all possible information. You can't see your opponent's move and immediately be able to process hundreds of paths that the game can play out from there. Your opponent's decision is hidden in the next couple of frames (your reaction time). Therefore, even such a thing as "perfect human play" is not possible unless you read (guess) every single thing your opponent does 100% to the T.

Conclusion? There are no strategies by Fox or Link or whoever isn't allowed to make mistakes that can cover all options. They have to make decisions to keep their opponents out and if one of these decisions are wrong they will pay hard for it. This is why "Fox > Pika if fox doesn't make mistakes" doesn't make sense to me. Something like that is simply not possible in any tournament play ever unless the fox player can see into the future.

This is why I'm still putting falcon below kirby and Fox below the top 3. This is why I placed Ness below Samus and Donkey Kong, and Link below Ness and Samus. Luigi is pure bottom because he's just too slow. I feel much more comfortable facing a Luigi than Link because I can always run to safety from Luigi

 

[lord narwhal]

I don't think the level of "perfection" required to make Fox top 2 is unreasonable. It isn't unreasonable to expect no missed Z-cancels in top level play, for example. Those are the only things that really cripple Fox.

 

[Kahnu]

I don't think the level of "perfection" required to make Fox top 2 is unreasonable. It isn't unreasonable to expect no missed Z-cancels in top level play, for example. Those are the only things that really cripple Fox.

if you say fox > pika or fox > kirby you have serious issues

 

[Sedda]

Fox is pretty good vs Kirby, but it's still much safer to play as Kirby.

Also, no mistakes doesn't just mean not missing z-cancels.

 

[caneut]

Smashboards name: Donkey King
Tournament name: Commander

1. Pikachu
2. Kirby
3. Fox
4. Captain Falcon
5. Yoshi
6. Mario
7. Jigglypuff
8. Samus
9. Link
10. Donkey Kong
11. Luigi
12. Ness

I see a lot of people putting Fox 4th or even 5th. In fact, Fox is really really good in this game, it's just that he's really technical compared to the rest of the cast, and so he's underexplored. Look at LD's Fox. That man works miracles. In my humble opinion, Fox is better than Falcon, mainly due to his recovery and ground game, he's simply harder to master.

obvious alt is obvious, right after

im worried that kahnu is making alternate accounts to put link in last place

hmmmm

 

[Bark Sanchez]

falcon is also not allowed to make many mistakes on dreamland but he is unanimously top 3? that's really not the issue here and you shouldn't pretend it's the only reason

the reason link is not a particularly good character is a combination of things, most notably the fact he is slow as ****

he's still better than dudes like luigi because luigi has garbage neutral in comparison to basically everyone but jigglypuff and arguably ness, and danker kang is, as previously discussed, fat af (though arguably better than link? idk)

It is a balance between room for mistakes, and ease to capitalize on mistakes

I don't believe falcon is top 3 but his ease to capitalize on mistakes is pretty high.
I think how easily he can kill Pika sways peoples votes quite a bit.

 

[asianaussie]

Is the Yoshi surge (and coinciding Kirby surge) the reason people are suddenly saying Falcon isn't top 3 on DL-only? I love Fox as much as the next non-Fox main but really? Yoshi I could see an argument for but Falcon had a way better rat matchup?

people think link has slow aerials? maybe compared to fox yea but otherwise? pretty fast for how big and strong they are

 

[Kahnu]

Is the Yoshi surge (and coinciding Kirby surge) the reason people are suddenly saying Falcon isn't top 3 on DL-only? I love Fox as much as the next non-Fox main but really? Yoshi I could see an argument for but Falcon had a way better rat matchup?

people think link has slow aerials? maybe compared to fox yea but otherwise? pretty fast for how big and strong they are

you need to chill about link, bruh

 

[Sedda]

Yeah I really don't understand why some people are placing Falcon so low and even under Mario at times maybe with the pretext that his recovery isn't that great, but then they'll place Fox higher than Kirby

 

[asianaussie]

i just can't stand people putting ****ing luigi over my bae

 

[Kahnu]

i just can't stand people putting ****ing luigi over my bae

atleast luigi has a recovery

 

[pidgezero_one]

Numbers update for 66 votes

NOTE: My numbers might be different from Koro's, because when someone made it clear in their post that they considered 2 or more characters to be tied/interchangeable, I gave them all the same rank by averaging (i.e. 8th, 9th, and 10th interchangeable == 8+9+10 = 27, divided by 3 characters, each character gets a rank of 9... or 2 characters tied for last each get 11.5)

Ness just surpassed Link after adding the last 15 votes or so

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

I can always run to safety from Luigi

You can run...
But you can't hide...

 

[lord narwhal]

if you say fox > pika or fox > kirby you have serious issues

fox is waaaaay better than kirby in that specific matchup, and I think he's at least as good in every other matchup. tough to say hes > pika but he's very close.

Fox is pretty good vs Kirby, but it's still much safer to play as Kirby.

Also, no mistakes doesn't just mean not missing z-cancels.

yes, but the most punishable mistake a fox player is likely to make is missing a z-cancel. bad spacing or whatever is just as bad for every other character, and fox having the best projectile in the game adds a little leeway there.

 

[Sedda]

spacing errors are not as bad for every character equally because of recoveries, weight, floatiness, etc

 

[Fireblaster]

I don't think the level of "perfection" required to make Fox top 2 is unreasonable. It isn't unreasonable to expect no missed Z-cancels in top level play, for example. Those are the only things that really cripple Fox.

Perfection isn't about having perfect tech skill. Sometimes Fox has to decide between something like retreating sh laser or retreating sh fair and if he chooses the wrong one, falcon will get in and take his stock.

 

[Mr Bushido]

Can we all agree Link Luigi & Ness belong in the bottom 3

 

[Beesy]

No. Link > Dk IMO. Sorry Z. But since we don't agree, I'd like to hear your arguments or examples so I can learn.

 

[Kahnu]

I agree with bushido.

Luigi, Link, Ness all belong in bottom 3.

Also the Link and Fox fanboys are hilarious

 

[Saltsizzle]

1.)
2.)
3.)
4.)
5.)
6.)
7.)
8.)
9.)
10.)
11.)
12.)

wut

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

wut

What the puff

That list is a bit Wilde

 

[The Star King]

typical wilde trolling

 

[KeroKeroppi]

i'm waaaay to ****ing lazy to read this ****

but i've noticed that javi is posting

and being that javi is right literally 100% of the time

i agree with him

 

[Deleted member]

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