Tier List Challenge: IMO Marth is not as good as people think

[danieljosebatista]

In my humble opinion, it's time for Marth's place on the tier list to reflect where he really belongs. The Marth metegame was developed by Ken and M2K at a time when the game was still young, and Marth seemed to dominate for a time. But it's slowly starting to become clear that Marth is not the character everyone thought he was. Maybe because Marth was traditionally so good it's hard to accept, but I think it's time to face the facts.

Marth should be moved down at least one place on the tier list, putting Peach above him. If it were up to me, I would move him down two places and put Captain Falcon above Marth as well. It's not 2008 anymore, and despite skilled players doing their best with Marth, it seems obvious to me that he just isn't as strong as we once belived.

If you were to ask me for my justification, the main thing I would say is that Marth has a double edged problem: On one hand he dies very easily due to his weight and predictable recovery, and on the other hand he just can't kill reliably except for a few exceptions (almost all of which involve spacies on FD). Yes I am a Marth main. And no, I don't expect everyone to agree. What do you guys think?

 

[Arcadia157]

As a Marth main, I don't believe Falcon and Peach should be put above him. I think the Peach matchup is a winning one and Falcon is at worst 50/50. I also do not agree with your statement that he can't kill reliably. The only times I've had trouble killing are against floaties on large stages. Perhaps your edgeguarding just isn't good enough or you rush into using kill moves when your opponent gets high in percent and that's why you think he has trouble killing? Ken and M2K definitely created and evolved the metagame for Marth, but that doesn't mean there aren't others that are continuing to evolve his game.

 

[CyberZixx]

I think Marth is fine and maybe a bit underrated these days if anything. Marth players are just not as plentiful as before and the character relied on that Ken/M2K metagame for too long.

 

[danieljosebatista]

@Arcadia, it's true that Marth beats Peach, but I think Peach is a better character overall. As far as Falcon goes, I don't think there's a top Marth player out there who could beat S2J or Hax

 

[CyberZixx]

I'd like to see Pewpewu vs Hax or S2J. Hopefully at evo.

 

[Upke]

Falcon's not even good.

 

[t3h Icy]

People that make threads like this should try going to a tournament using Falcon, Samus, etc, and then go back to their supposedly terrible top tier character.

 

[Deleted member]

What do you guys think?

I think you're stone cold nuts. Marth is ****ing ********.

 

[JKJ]

Marth is underrated in modern Melee
everyone thinks hes bad because the metagame has evolved to counter the M2K / Ken style, and only now are Marths emerging with their own, new metagames. And now, Marth is beginning to win again.
PPU beat Mango
PP took a set off of Armada
etc
etc

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Currently,
1) Falco
2) Fox
Simple reason of Falco seems to be more reliable than Fox at the moment.
3) Sheik
4) Jiggs/Peach
6) Marth
I'd need more convincing of Marth over Jiggs/Peach, but could happen.

 

[Ziodyne]

I personally think Marth should be above Peach/Puff/Falcon

He's a pretty damn solid character

Kinda squishy at times, but so are the spacies and well look where they are lmao

 

[1MachGO]

I feel like you haven't provided sufficient enough reasoning to say Marth is worse than Falcon or Peach.

Marth's worst MU is Sheik and you could argue Falcon is unfavorable.
Falcon and Peach have a laundry list of bad MUs amongst the top and high tiers.

Tournament results =/= character viability

 

[The Business]

What do I think?

I think there's a tier list thread that you should've posted this in.

 

[VoiD-]

As far as Falcon goes, I don't think there's a top Marth player out there who could beat S2J or Hax

As far as Peach goes, I don't think there's a top Falco player out there who can beat Armada. Peach #1.

 

[Ziodyne]

BTW

IIRC, PPU has beaten S2J in tournament before (I can't remember which one, but I remember a WC tourney within the past year where s2j mentioned it as such)

Also would not be surprised to see either PPU or PP take down Hax with Marth. The matchup is volatile enough though that it could easily go the opposite way.

 

[Frame Perfect]

marth so easy. like i don't even chaingrab good spacies anymore

 

[Frame Perfect]

like he doesn't even need all his moves. they should have just given him more taunts

 

[PGH Carroll]

Anyone who thinks marth sucks is a friend of mine!

 

[Beat!]

Marth is better than both Peach and Falcon

 

[Shadow Huan]

Marth is indeed pretty limited when it comes to killing and recovery; he only has one reliable but slow powerful smash for killing at lowish %s, and it's massively punishable if it misses. good DI on most of marth's other moves keep the oppoent alive for much longer than with other characters... such as the difference between marth's bair and falcon's. falcon's is DI dependant but usually kills much sooner. the fact that he lacks a sex kick hurts him in certain situations too.

all that said, Marth is exactly where he should be on the tier list. he has amazing mobility and stage control, can gimp nearly every character, has an amazing tech chase game and his edge game is about as strong as they come.

he's actually a rather balanced out character, and would be really balanced with a few adjustments imo.

 

[BTmoney]

Do people not understand that Marth is getting better not worse?

His metagame was comparatively stagnat until this year or so.
Maybe when Marth players start pivot tippering fsmashing out of fair, dthrow, and fthrow he'll be a solid low tier. Or maybe more Marth players should use the already hidden technology called uthrow and juggle **** the entire cast.

Are you the same dude who said Marth gets punished harder than space animals and falcon?
Falcon is better than him?

your reason(s) doesn't even make sense. Who's gameplay are you basing this off of??

 

[danieljosebatista]

I'm gonna be completely honest, based on most of the answers I see it seems to me that just as I said, most people simply do not believe the truth. Marth is not nearly as solid as people think. I think the results over time have shown this, and will continue to show it. Obviously tiers are not everything and I am by no means saying Marth is bad.


BUT...


There's a reason M2K only uses Marth as a counterpick on FD, and chooses to go Sheik every other time. (Most of the time anyway).

 

[Sizzle]

A purely fox main hasn't won a national in god knows how long (if ever?) yet he's been number 1 on the tier list for years. The reason is because he has an infinite tech ceiling and possibilities. Marth is similar in a way that his available options are so strong, and we're now seeing a new breed of Marth players challenge the meta and take it to new levels. Marth isn't going anywhere. Tier lists aren't based on actual tournament results, they are based on hypothetical high level play. And at hypothetical high level play, Marth is very good.

 

[Selodin]

A purely fox main hasn't won a national in god knows how long (if ever?) yet he's been number 1 on the tier list for years. The reason is because he has an infinite tech ceiling and possibilities. Marth is similar in a way that his available options are so strong, and we're now seeing a new breed of Marth players challenge the meta and take it to new levels. Marth isn't going anywhere. Tier lists aren't based on actual tournament results, they are based on hypothetical high level play. And at hypothetical high level play, Marth is very good.

taken from the MBR tier list thread "A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play."

" ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results."

"recent, relevant tournament results. "

"tournament results."

just sayin

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Marth's not that good but he's definitely high tier and certainly better than falcon.

 

[ph00tbag]

I think you're very silly if you think Marth isn't the fourth best character in the game.

 

[EpixAura]

As long as spacies, FD, and Yoshi's Story exist, Marth is gonna stay pretty damn good for a pretty damn good while.

As I honestly believe PP's Marth is the best Marth at the moment, I really want to see if he plays it at Evo and how well it does. I think that will give us a little something to base our judgement off of, as there are very, very few Marth players at the moment. Still, Marth has had kind of a weird history of representation in the competitive scene, so it's hard to form an accurate opinion of him.

 

[ShrieK1295]

I'm gonna be completely honest, based on most of the answers I see it seems to me that just as I said, most people simply do not believe the truth. Marth is not nearly as solid as people think. I think the results over time have shown this, and will continue to show it. Obviously tiers are not everything and I am by no means saying Marth is bad.


BUT...


There's a reason M2K only uses Marth as a counterpick on FD, and chooses to go Sheik every other time. (Most of the time anyway).

There's a reason why everyone thinks you're wrong.

Also, the reason why M2K always plays Sheik is because that character is ****ing easy. Marth is good. He's just hard.

 

[BTmoney]

I'm gonna be completely honest, based on most of the answers I see it seems to me that just as I said, most people simply do not believe the truth.

Lol what kind of statement is that.

Introduce some sort of view that no one else has contemplated and prove us wrong. Or at least give a compelling argument. There's nothing in the past or right now that supports what you're saying.

Marth is at worst very good, top 5 or better. I still want to know who's gameplay you watched that convinced you that Peach and Falcon (>_>) are better.

M2k goes Sheik because he likes gimping and controlling the pace of the match (no coincidence he also plays puff). Sheik does both of those...very well. Especially in this metagame with all this hyper aggression. If people are going to run at him on the ledge and lose to his planking then why not play Sheik?

And he's a Sheik main.

 

[atangerine]

Marth should be moved down at least one place on the tier list, putting Peach above him. If it were up to me, I would move him down two places and put Captain Falcon above Marth as well.

what

 

[Osennecho]

Falcon above Marf = LOL. Peach... I can see Peach possibly being above Marf but I still think I'll say no.

 

[Pengie]

This thread makes my brain hurt >.>

Marth has his Down Tilt; that move alone invalidates almost every character in the game because they can't do anything about it. Of the characters that can deal with it they have to try to jump over it which is bad because you just put yourself above Marth so the end result should be pretty obvious >.> The only characters that are left are the ones that can DD away from it and can punish him... or they would if the move weren't cancelable into dashing away less than half way into it meaning he can throw it out pretty safely at almost any range just to take up space and fish for hits.

so yeah marth's down tillt is pretty broken; use it more and marth magically stops sucking >.>

 

[Beat!]

I'm gonna be completely honest, based on most of the answers I see it seems to me that just as I said, most people simply do not believe the truth. Marth is not nearly as solid as people think. I think the results over time have shown this, and will continue to show it. Obviously tiers are not everything and I am by no means saying Marth is bad.

Oh, it's the truth? Well, that changes things completely. Would you mind sharing some other truths that could be mistaken for opinions to an untrained eye?

Also impressive how you started out by calling it "your humble opinion" in your first post just to bait out people who thought they were disagreeing, when in fact they were just being wrong. Good stuff.

 

[strawhats]

@Arcadia, it's true that Marth beats Peach, but I think Peach is a better character overall. As far as Falcon goes, I don't think there's a top Marth player out there who could beat S2J or Hax

#PPU/M2K have both beaten/gone even with S2J and Hax (hax hasn't played PPU yet, maybe at EVO. However he and m2k go back and forth wrecking each other in that MU). Marth is priy freaking good. If you're basing marth's credibility on recent results, then look no further to PP's/PPU's recent successes with marth against floaty/wierd characters. Ala PPU beating axe's pikachu with marth(axe is pretty much dominant in that MU) and beating shroomed's doc/sheik (Dajuan is hella good vs marth too). Not to mention PP taking a set off of Armada. I've seen PP give hbox's puff more than a run in friendlies (which were going to be a MM, but after losing to PP's marth in a few friendlies I think Hbox chose not to do it) Marth is a damn good character in the right hands. PPU with a close ass 3-0 against Hbox (yeah wierd to say i know) and beatin fly amanita with marth is no easy feat as he and wobbles LOVE the marth MU.

@Ado: i don't think m2k mains any single character. He splits his time b/w. marth and sheik, and fox for puff. Hell he even has a puff for the ditto and peach for Climbers.

 

[Sizzle]

taken from the MBR tier list thread "A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play."

"ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results."

"recent, relevant tournament results. "

"tournament results."

just sayin

Then why was Fox number 1 for so many years without ever winning a national?

 

[Ziodyne]

probably because outside of top spot at nationals, lots of fox players took high placements in tournaments when compared to other chars

just thinking about it, there always are a good number of pretty damn solid fox mains, just usually no one who'd be considered tippy-top level

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth is limited in that he can only do a few things but those things are also incredibly good, highly variable in form and structure, get enhanced exponentially by player skill improvement, and work on every character so I'm not sure "he's limited" really matters.

 

[thespymachine]

What do I think?

I think there's a tier list thread that you should've posted this in.

 

[Dr. Poopoo]

i disagree. how many Captain Falcon's can you say are GREAT competitively? maybe mango?....maybe. how many Peach's? 1? Armada. but look how many great Marth's. Ken, M2K, Ek, Ice, Dr. PP

 

[CloneHat]

the main thing I would say is that Marth has a double edged problem

Yah his sword