Thoughts on APEX2012 GFs: Melee, Brawl, The Metagame, and Playing to Win

[Sliraobe God]

Table of Contents​

[jumpto=Chapter 1: Gratitude and Growth]Chapter 1: Gratitude and Growth[/jumpto]
[jumpto=Chapter 2: APEX2012 GFs, Melee, and Brawl]Chapter 2: APEX2012 GFs, Melee, and Brawl[/jumpto]
[jumpto=Chapter 3: The Metagame]Chapter 3: The Metagame[/jumpto]
[jumpto=Chapter 4: Playing to Win]Chapter 4: Playing to Win[/jumpto]
[jumpname]Chapter 1: Gratitude and Growth[/jumpname]

Chapter 1​

[COLLAPSE="Gratitude and Growth"]First, I give my congratulations to all of the players. APEX2012 featured competitors for diverse games: SSB64, Melee, Brawl, Pokemon Black & White, SSF4: AE2012, UMvC3, and MK9. The international tournament also attracted legendary visitors across North America, Europe, and Japan. I extend my sincerest thanks to sponsors, tournament hosts, organizers, and media outlets. Without their efforts, our historic community would not roar with the vitality it does today. Personally, I was inspired to leave the isolation of the New Mexico thread and post in a public forum, an exceptional rarity for me


We could be on the brink of a revival - a breakthrough of sorts.

• There was intimate proximity between the traditional 2D fighting game and smash community.
• Despite susceptibility to human error, our overall media coverage was praiseworthy.
• Improvements might be made for event planning and smooth tournament progression.
• Sponsors added prize money for melee, something unseen in years.
• Even our well-established, standardized counter/slob pick system might be updated.
• International awareness and hype skyrocketed. Take Mexico's finest, Javi, who achieved a 3-stock comeback against Dr. PeePee, a USA favorite -- the most surprising upset in recent memory. If I were to assign a backronym, I would call A.P.E.X. 2012 American Players Entering Xenophobia. Or maybe something like Armada Pooping: Europe's Xmas

But we weren’t done stacking it up. I, for one, was comfortably excited for Grand Finals. Thousands of dollars were on the line. Hungrybox was fighting to repeat his victory at APEX 2010. Armada was fighting to repeat his victory at GENESIS 2.




But this is not my diary entry of an epic. It’s not all fluffy unicorns and jolly rainbows. Despite my hopeful tone earlier, I feared the worst. This thread is . . . a warning.[/COLLAPSE][jumpname]Chapter 2: APEX2012 GFs, Melee, and Brawl[/jumpname]

Chapter 2​

[COLLAPSE="APEX2012 GFs, Melee, and Brawl"]Others didn't feel that way about the championship match. They didn't marvel at the glory of professional competition or history in the making; they only perceived it to be 8-minute campfests between Jigglypuff and Young Link. Livestream viewership plummeted, a significant in-person audience stopped watching/left the venue, and commentators tried their best to stay awake. By itself, that’s no inherent problem. It's expected. Everybody likes flashy, technical play juxtaposed against nerve-wracking, choke-inducing pressure. But we have a legitimate problem of sportsmanship when the melee community disparages competition of its own game between its own world-class players. Guests made cameo appearances on the livestream just to talk trash. People made selfish comments (especially by SWF, livestream chat, and Twitter) favoring their own thirst for entertainment instead of promoting a friendly rivalry. We had a chance to rejuvenate the community. Instead, we made ourselves look bad.


I don’t know what Seibrik said to Hungrybox. But his advice shifted the match flow. Hungrybox regrouped himself, regained composure, and resisted Armada’s initial 2-0 domination with his own defensive style and reluctance to approach. Matches ended not because 4 stocks were eliminated, but because the clock timed out. In the later matches, especially of set 2, Armada threw more projectiles and Hungrybox played more keep-away. Even the commentators felt like a different game was being played.


The reminiscence should be painfully obvious now. Hopefully you understand why I put “Brawl” in a melee thread title. I needn’t explain that both games share an ugly story together. One dividing factor between the already-fissured communities was a change of appearance. At the surface, the series departed from speedy, offensive combos to patient, defensive zoning. Hidden under that façade of a surface, lurking in the depths, however, is the identical competitive genius in the Super Smash Bros. franchise. The basic models of (1) percent instead of life bars, (2) DI instead of fixed knockback and (3) stage dependence w/ edgeguarding instead of corners and ring-outs will forever persist in our series.



Perhaps I am being hypersensitive. Maybe I’m exaggerating a simple video game. I could be blowing it up into a long, pointless essay. But since Brawl’s release, I’ve witnessed a community backlash of ignorance and hate, and I’m worried our GFs could spark a resurgence of that same stupidity. I am no oracle, but I predict the future melee metagame will be similar to what we all witnessed in APEX2012 GFs (and previous tournaments). You’ll see why I think so later. I may be a false prophet, but if my prophecy is true, then more of the melee-brawl plague will inevitably arise. And, if I’ve learned anything from medicine (no, I’m not a doctor, just a college student with *very* Asian parents), prophylaxis is better than anaphylaxis. In other words, we want prevention instead of circumvention.


It’s not playing gay. It’s playing to win. I want to convey appreciation, not homophobia, for this gameplay. Instead of a potential shitstorm, I would rather see people support it. It deserves acknowledgement, research, and development. It is particularly crucial we reflect this atmosphere when critical, judging eyes are closely watching us and forming an impression (e.g. newer players, the FGC, and corporate sponsors). This is my main thesis, my central points to this exhausting-to-read analysis. You're like halfway done, I promise [/COLLAPSE][jumpname]Chapter 3: The Metagame[/jumpname]

Chapter 3​

[COLLAPSE="The Metagame"]Consider Cactuar’s insightful response to Scar’s vision on the Melee/Brawl debate. I quote a revised excerpt below:

[COLLAPSE="The Engine and Mechanism Behind Competitive Fighting Games"]

1. [highlight]The Push-and-Pull:[/highlight] This is where we encounter the term "mindgames" most often. It is everything you do to manipulate your opponent, control space on the stage, create openings to enable you to land either individual blows or combo starters, how you react and pressure shields, etc. READ THIS PARAGRAPH AGAIN. You should be able to wrap your head around the push-and-pull idea, enough to define it yourself.

2. The Punishment: The end result of all push-and-pull games, ranging from individual hits to deadly combos.

For the smash series, we have seen the balance shift between the push-and-pull and the punishment.


In 64, there was a heavy reliance on the combo game, making the push-and-pull less important than being able to consistently death-combo the enemy. The only real importance of the push-and-pull was to make sure you could land one hit before the enemy. (slightly overstated)

In Melee, there was a balance between the push-and-pull, and the combo game was significantly more balanced with the addition of DI and the reduction of shield stun. There were so many options regarding movement available that the push-and-pull became equally important as being able to properly execute the punishment.

In Brawl, we see a huge imbalance in the gameplay. The push-and-pull game has become far more important than the punishment game, as there is such a weak overall combo system. The problem here is that, while they made the push-and-pull game so much more important, they slowed down the overall gameplay and removed many of the movement options, and even inserted an unremoveable random variable (tripping) to further gimp movement. Because of this slower pace, the game becomes boring to watch as we spend more time in the push-and-pull, and then when we manage to initiate the punishment, there is an anti-climactic moment because the opponent can't be punished to an extent that would be fair for their mistake. The game is so oriented towards rewarding camping that, competitively, we will likely see projectile characters stand as far away as possible, then shoot as many things as possible until the opponent approaches, at which point they will exchange very little damage, then resume camping. Close-range characters have had their options reduced, as players are punished for approaching by running (Your only options from run are to dash attack, grab, or jump. Shield-dashing puts you at a disadvantage due to removal of the first frame running shield and the new lagged shield.), and most characters have a disadvantage by approaching from above. Shieldgrabbing has been upgraded given the very small amount of shield stun from any move, and at the same time, ruined because of the inability to combo out of grab, aside from the few characters that now have nearly skill-less chaingrabs.

[/COLLAPSE]
You can decide for yourself on the (fairly hostile) Brawl paragraph. Regardless, people stereotype Hungrybox vs. Armada (or Brawl) gameplay as “gay” or “boring”. But it is really Cactuar’s “push-and-pull” concept in disguise. It is your opinion to evaluate the “push-and-pull” rhythm/pacing as “boring”. But do not couch it under seemingly-more-innocent terms like “shallow” or “mindless”. Do not call that mechanism thoughtless. In fact, you are wrong to equate them. As a first step, recognize this distinction.


As a next step, take a closer look at the current state of the game (and PEEF!'s work too!). Prog, D1, and Dogysamich referred to the players’ movements more than usual. This correlates to the push-and-pull concept. I hypothesize in 2012 so far, the metagame evolved less quickly for technical skill and combos, but has accelerated more rapidly for spacing. I argue that in Melee, the push-and-pull concept has room for growth, but the punishment element (Cactuar’s 2nd idea) has been exhausted close to its peak of human potential. Sure, there is more to learn – look at Javi’s Uair combos or Armada’s sexy Marth. But spacing saw greater gains. They are subtle, but to the trained, vigilant eye, they are remarkable. I will list a few.

• Ice’s Marth recently popularized . . . well, an AT. He showed off easier powershielding by crouching using the hurtbox/shielding mechanics. This is phenomenal. We have a more reliable way to get around projectiles, most prominently, Falco's lasers.
  
• General approaches and (not-just-tech) “chasing” is better. This is aother big one. Hax said players’ reaction times are improving. Thus, they can play at closer distances and still be safe. I’ve noticed amazing gains in players' movement around the opponent’s shields from mere inches away. This also applies to an opponent’s rolls, spot dodges, air dodges, get-up attacks, neutral wakeup, jump, and other evasive options. Don’t misread me here; shield pressure has barely improved. It’s the same as 2011's Falco, Fox, and Peach pillaring (with the notable exception of Hungrybox’s Ness). I’m only saying close-range approaches are better. If you want proof, see MaNg0's impeccable dashdancing. Credit to Bones0; I can't believe I forgot to include this video from 2011. This chasing ability has only gotten better since.
  
• Platforms and edge mechanics are emphasized. Top players spend more time at the mystic/angelic/revival/after-you-get-KOed platform; they waveland from the edge with greater speed and proficiency by abusing its invincibility quickly to return to center-stage or another neutral position; there is greater attention to projectile movement in and around platforms; greater thought is given to stage layout and counterpicks.
  
• New methods in recovery. I can’t explain this well either, but I saw novel routes of returning to the stage, and brilliant combinations of waiting/tumbling/wiggling/double-jumping/air-dodging/Up-B’ing/etc. in addition to dodging the enemy’s edgeguarding. At this point, I think you’re starting to doubt me, so I’ll stop while I’m ahead

That was probably annoying to read, but you see my point. I may be getting too philosophical, but our culture of mediocrity has promoted instant gratification instead of hard work. The hard work is navigating, using, and mastering the plethora of little subtleties of push-and-pull endowed in Super Smash Bros. We emphasize sensual pleasure instead of discipline (which can be equally rewarding). More push-and-pull allows for more metaphorical ****.

Spoiler

worst joke in the world

[/COLLAPSE][jumpname]Chapter 4: Playing to Win[/jumpname]

Chapter 4​

[COLLAPSE="Playing to Win"]Major League Gaming has a mission statement. Their job is to expand the reputation of competitive gaming and show the public that gaming is a sport. APEX2012 proved Super Smash Bros. is as much a sport as any other game. So the third step, you ask? Recognize this push-and-pull notion in the context of a major league. You all should agree with me – smash is a sport, a religion, whatever, as long as it’s serious. Athletes improve their health with physical self-discipline, in the form of nutrition, weight-lifting, etc. Likewise, smashers must improve their health with mental endurance and stamina, in the form of this push-and-pull game.


Stop dismissing the APEX GFs. Stop skipping videos of long or so-called campy games. Stop ignoring Brawl in general. Stop complaining and start studying.


If you want to become a better player, then you must implement this appreciation, sensitivity, and mastery of the push-and-pull. If you want to become a better theorycrafter/researcher/historian, then you must understand its rhythm. If you want to become a better commentator, then you must verbalize it. If you want the community to be more professional, then you must spread it.


To conclude this ridiculously long post, Sakurai confirmed Super Smash Bros. 4 to follow in Brawl's footsteps, not Melee. Like Cactuar explained, Brawl manifests the push-and-pull more, and the trend will continue in SSB4. If you want to prepare for the next iteration, then pay special attention to push-and-pull. If you do, then you might become the next champion.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Varist]

oh my god.

it is too late at night to read this

but someone will

not me.

tomorrow maybe

yeah, tomorrow.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Interesting read.
I liked all the links you gave as examples.
Although it was fairly long for such a simple message.

 

[Sliraobe God]

Although it was fairly long for such a simple message.

Thanks. I must agree the post was inordinately long. At least I tried my best to make it pretty. Still, any kind of worthwhile analysis of the metagame needs to be long. If smash is life, then the metagame is philosophy.

By the way Albuquerque's hosting a tourney some time in 2012. Bring RPGfan so I can **** him up :D

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Thanks. I must agree the post was inordinately long. At least I tried my best to make it pretty. Still, any kind of worthwhile analysis of the metagame needs to be long. If smash is life, then the metagame is philosophy.

By the way Albuquerque's hosting a tourney some time in 2012. Bring RPGfan so I can **** him up :D

Oh it was pretty

I haven't played with RPG in a while. He dropped melee for MvC3, but i'll see if i can convince him. I've also started playing with a dude in EP (first person who posted in the thread) so ill see if he wants to go to Albuquerque for a tourney.

Falcon ditto MM?

EDIT: also LOL @ "sometime in 2012" xD sooo vague

 

[Citizen Snips]

All I have to say to this is "PUNCH HIM IN THE ****"

Although I will certainly read it later.

 

[Zodiac]

If you were armada or hbox fighting for the world champion title, you would be having a lot more fun than what it looked like up there. I read some of it but I'm on my phone so I can't give my full 2 cents, but that's what I was thinking while I watched grand finals

 

[finalcloud13]

Basically, that match up is boring to watch.

 

[Pikaville]

It's bombs and arrows vs bairs and nairs.

 

[Massive]

The Apex GFs followed immediately on the stream by Brawl matches displayed very visibly how similar the two games can be. However, where melee can be exciting and technical at the upper echelons of performance it can still be reduced to what is effectively a pissing contest with bombs, boomerangs, and arrows. Unfortunately Brawl has all of the latter and none of the former.

Every match I watched on the subsequent Brawl stream was almost like watching melee GFs again. This does not make me want to endorse brawl, in fact it makes me want to renounce it even more. The similarities you and others have perceived and are hailing as common ground are the same issues that cleaved the rift between melee and brawl into the gaming strata. They are the issues that hold the communities apart today.

The way grand finals were played was totally within the scope of the rules we have set. It was not good entertainment, it was not a learning experience for anyone watching, it was not a good representation of melee gameplay at any level except for one single, unpleasant match-up. I cannot condemn the results, but I do detest the methods.

We can do better.

 

[Kal]

The issues that hold the communities apart are not gameplay related. It's the fact that people have their heads so far up their own ***** they can't appreciate that the quality of being enjoyable is entirely subjective.

Also, "we can do better?" What, you want the players in grand finals (noticeably a set of players not including you) to change their methods solely to entertain the observers? When did this community become so ****ing scrubby?

 

[Massive]

The issues are gameplay related. Every melee player I know who does not like brawl dislikes it for the game itself, not the community. We dislike brawl because the game isn't fun for us.

I have friends who play brawl, and I do not dislike them or their group. I respect that they like to get together to play a game (I do the same thing) but that does not mean I will acknowledge that I want to play the game or even begin to understand how they could subject themselves to it. From my perspective, brawl just it is not fun to play or watch. I gave it ample chance, and it was never satisfactory.

Grand Finals are entertainment to everyone except the two people playing them. They are doing it for the recognition of their peers and the excitement of beating someone (also prize money). They have that and I don't want to take any of that prestige from them. However, I did not like how grand finals was played out. It was perfectly legal in terms of gameplay, but it was frustrating to see after such an exciting tournament otherwise.

"We can do better" was the idea that we as a community can produce better players. There are among us individuals, mostly likely never me or you, who can do better than this. They will not have to resort to projectile spamming time-outs in order to win, they will just win. I do not want this game to turn into something no longer worth playing.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I love that the SF community is giving us ****...even though they were a ****ing side event. SO ****ing dumb.

Good **** to Alu for getting third!

 

[Juushichi]

Mad amounts of people missing the point in this thread.

Amazing OP.

 

[ZMan]

that was good read, neil. not everyone liked the lame play in melee gfs, but i can always appreciate someone doing what they need to do to win.

the one thing that bothered me during the melee commentary on friday was when one of the commentators said something along the lines of "they are trying to make melee like street fighter." i was bothered by that comment because why are the competitive players trying to smash something smash isn't (this case street fighter). play sf if you want to play sf, keep smash the way it is.

apex was a good step towards fgc/smash community/esports unity. a shaky step, but a step forward nonetheless.

 

[Jonas]

Even if you thought the Grand Finals were boring to watch, surely you must be able to appreaciate the immense amount of hard work both players put in? I've never seen a GF that looked so brutal to its players' mental stamina. It even looked like Armada outlasted Hungrybox rather than outplaying him; Hungrybox seemed to fall into his old style of getting hit with very projectile. He seemed to just play more sloppily and less paciently in the second set, while I didn't spot much change in Armada's style, but I guess I could be wrong about this.

Personally, I thought these finals were madly exciting. Sure, they lacked awesome flashy combos, and I'm probably not going to rewatch the whole thing on YouTube, but they kept me on the edge of my seat. What I loved is that they WEREN'T repeats of Armada vs Hungrybox at Pound 5 and Genesis 2. I don't know what Seibrik told him, but he really seemed to have figured out Armada's Young Link. I'm also excited about their future encouters, because this does not look like an auto-win for Armada anymore.

Besides, it was ten times more flashy and fast-paced than the Guile vs Sagat matches I saw on the Street Fighter stream

 

[Kal]

Massive, I'm not going to waste time addressing the entirety of your lengthy scrub-fest of a post in depth, but keep the following in mind: players enter tournaments to win, not to entertain the scrubs that are watching. It's too bad that you didn't like the grand finals of APEX, but you weren't the one playing. When you make it to grand finals, go ahead and get the place of "first loser" so that those watching will be more entertained.

In how many threads are you going to complain about a tactic you subjectively dislike before you realize why I'm emphasizing the word "subjective?" I, myself, find Falco to be boring to watch. To the point where I stop paying attention in the grand finals of a tournament if either player is using Falco. However, I'm not going to be a pompous, condescending *** and act as though my opponents have done something wrong for "resorting" to playing the way they have.

 

[commonyoshi]

I play video games to have fun... That's all I'm saying.

Once it becomes a job/chore what's the point?

 

[Kal]

Then go play video games. APEX was not a party. It was a tournament.

And who are you to try and force your idea of fun down anyone's throat anyway? There will always be differing opinions on what is fun. That's just another reason to not worry about it in the context of a tournament.

 

[Merkuri]

Then go play video games. APEX was not a party. It was a tournament.

And who are you to try and force your idea of fun down anyone's throat anyway? There will always be differing opinions on what is fun. That's just another reason to not worry about it in the context of a tournament.

Why is it a problem for us to state our opinions and what we'd like from the community? It kinda seems like you're looking for conflict.

 

[Massive]

Massive, I'm not going to waste time addressing the entirety of your lengthy scrub-fest of a post in depth, but keep the following in mind: players enter tournaments to win, not to entertain the scrubs that are watching. It's too bad that you didn't like the grand finals of APEX, but you weren't the one playing. When you make it to grand finals, go ahead and get the place of "first loser" so that those watching will be more entertained.

I'm sick of the personal attacks dude, I'm not trying to insult anyone here (until now, anyway).
I'm never going to win a national, my chance for that is non-existent. I would probably not even be able to become the best in the Midwest even if I tried with everything I have, and I've long since accepted that.

They both played to win, however I found it to be a battle of attrition which did not accurately depict either of their talents. Armada stampeded through the best players in the world with ease, it was awe-inspiring to watch. Hungrybox was in expert form, defeating Mango and his ilk with terrifying efficacy. Their final confrontation displayed none of that.

That is my opinion, it is not set in stone and you are free to disagree. **** you if you think insulting me is going to prove your point.

 

[mesa23]

those ylink vs puff gf matches were insane.

armada is amazing though, it looked like he stepped his game up even more during the last set while hbox was lookin' more fatigued.

i think hbox is gonna be able to take the win next time they meet.

 

[twizzlerj]

Hbox winning the first set made this GF actually interesting. I believe that people can learn the importance of spacing and being patient by watching this set but probably just watch a game not the whole thing that will take to long .

 

[Napos]

Whatever it takes win, that's what its about. Proud of you Neil, your such a god.

 

[Jonas]

Why is it a problem for us to state our opinions and what we'd like from the community? It kinda seems like you're looking for conflict.

The problem is that you guys shouldn't even have opinions on what tournament matches, in which you are not even involved beside your roles as viewers, should be like. If you didn't enjoy the matches, then tough cookie. These were Armada's and Hungrybox's matches, and they tried to win with everything they had.

It's fair enough that you guys just want to play this game for the fun of it, and nobody is really stopping you from enjoying it the way you like, but some members of our community are actually involved in hardcore competition in which they, unfortunately for you, have to sacrifice your viewing pleasure in order to play at their highest level.

 

[commonyoshi]

There's a reason we as a community have banned Hyrule Castle, Corneria, and other crappy stages from tournament play. You guys talk about tournaments like they're some untouchable thing that's uncritiquable by the public.

 

[Beat!]

There's a reason we as a community have banned Hyrule Castle, Corneria, and other crappy stages from tournament play.

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with entertainment. Try again.

 

[Kal]

Massive, this just in: the game is not a judged sport. Turns out that there is a measurement for who the better player is, and that measurement (victory) is objective. So, while you think the set did not test the skills you think are valuable, the game itself does not acknowledge these subjective notions. The game does not reward you extra for winning by not camping.

And while I'm (not really) sorry if you feel insulted by my post, calling you scrubby is more an observation than an attempt at insult. In other words, don't feel insulted; think of it as an opportunity to look at yourself and realize that your disdain with the grand finals reflects a personal quality you can fix. That, instead of taking a poorly defined, scrubby moral high ground about the "right" way to play, you can take one very well-defined high ground, which is to try and win.

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with entertainment. Try again.

Well, a few bans are basically for entertainment purposes, but the point still holds. Mostly just shamelessly pushing my disapproval of the community's tendency to ban stages, rather than actually contributing here. Remember when I predicted exactly how long it would take for the **** thread to cycle back to the original question?

 

[Beat!]

I know you disagree with the criterion, but that's another debate.

I remember when you CHEATED, yeah.

 

[Kal]

Not really the criteria, just that, if you're banning things for reasons other than brokenness (which Cactuar has said is absolutely not the sole criteria for the MBR to ban anything), then you're necessarily banning it for entertainment, in some sense. Maybe not the entertainment of viewers, but the reason basically falls down to "because I like it more this way." The point still stands that we've never really banned anything because of the spectators.

Also, I didn't cheat. Bowl.

 

[GoldenGlove]

I like your APEX backronyms.

I didn't have a problem with the play during GFs, but it did make me wonder why the hell we need 8 whole minutes on the timer.

#1stock2minutesbestformat

 

[Jonas]

What are we gonna do, ban Jigglypuff and Young Link from playing each other?

 

[Kal]

We just need to peer pressure Armada into using only Peach.

 

[GoldenGlove]

What are we gonna do, ban Jigglypuff and Young Link from playing each other?

Are you talking to me?

If so...no. What? No. The victor will be whoever is in the lead after 2 minutes instead of whoever is in the lead after 8 minutes.

 

[commonyoshi]

Yeah, and it has absolutely nothing to do with entertainment. Try again.

We as a community decide on the ruleset for tournaments. Why do we not allow Peach's Castle? Because we subjectively think fox shining someone against the wall for 8 minutes is stupid and uncompetitive. Or what about the ice climber freeze glitch?

We're free to criticize and form the game we want.

 

[Jonas]

GoldenGlove,
Was just joking about the notion of banning things for entertainment purposes =)

 

[Twinkles]

My thoughts on Apex 2012 GF's:

This was such an incredibly exciting set for reasons completely different reasons compared to the usual Fox-Falco-Falcon tech skill super combo display. It was a huge race against time and every single hit dealt felt like a fatal blow, because I knew the clock would wind down and the smallest % advantage could be the tournament win. The spacing I saw in set 1 of the GF's was amazing. Armada threw boomerangs and bombs in so many complex ways and Hungrybox weaved through them desperately trying to kick the little-boy-in-tights in the face. It was like watching a gameplay video of watching some poor player try to best some ridiculously impossible boss (Armada as the boss just because of projectiles ).

This was an epitome of gameplay. Precise spacing at its finest and an element of depth not commonly seen in Melee gameplay: time pressure. That's right, pressuring your opponent with the seconds of a clock. Brilliant.

---

My thoughts on future of Melee:

I want to see this type of gameplay co-exist with the fast and flashy technical play we usually see today. I do not want to see it take over. While I did enjoy Apex 2012 GF's, seeing every match in Melee five or ten years later become 8-minute patient spacing matches will quickly grow stale and we will probably see the decline of Melee. I will give to the nay-sayers of this type of "campy" play-style that some of the most inspiring, most impressive plays -the kind that keeps continuing players to keep playing and for new players to be inspired to get into the game- came from aggressive, flashy, and technical gameplay.

However, just because we don't want this gameplay to take-over Melee doesn't mean we should try the destroy it. The OP suggested people want to try to "cure" this "disease" of Melee. But we shouldn't cure it if it isn't a disease to begin with.

If you don't want all of your matches to become 8-minute "camp-fests," brush up on your aggressive pressure. Get fast, get technical. Display for yourself to the world that defensive is not the ONLY way to win. I have faith that one day, there will player who can play an incredible offense to triumph over incredibly defensive gameplay. I saw hints of that at Genesis 2 when Mango beat Hungrybox. Come on Melee community, step it up.

 

[Degree]

We just need to peer pressure Armada into using only Peach.

His approach is winning him tournaments, if you don't like it, stop him yourself.

 

[Massive]

Massive, this just in: the game is not a judged sport. Turns out that there is a measurement for who the better player is, and that measurement (victory) is objective. So, while you think the set did not test the skills you think are valuable, the game itself does not acknowledge these subjective notions. The game does not reward you extra for winning by not camping.

And while I'm (not really) sorry if you feel insulted by my post, calling you scrubby is more an observation than an attempt at insult. In other words, don't feel insulted; think of it as an opportunity to look at yourself and realize that your disdain with the grand finals reflects a personal quality you can fix. That, instead of taking a poorly defined, scrubby moral high ground about the "right" way to play, you can take one very well-defined high ground, which is to try and win.

Keep talking down me and others, please. Your condescension obviously marks you as the person with the most valid opinion.

I'm sorry I even brought it up at this point. I am not contesting the outcome of Apex, I'm just disappointed the final match had to be so very unpleasant to watch, and I'm hoping these repeated results haven't damaged the diversity of the metagame in the process.

 

[Kal]

His approach is winning him tournaments, if you don't like it, stop him yourself.

Haha, I was only kidding. Read through the thread and you'll see that I'm all for playing to win.

Keep talking down me and others, please. Your condescension obviously marks you as the person with the most valid opinion.

Obviously.

I'm sorry I even brought it up at this point. I am not contesting the outcome of Apex, I'm just disappointed the final match had to be so very unpleasant to watch, and I'm hoping these repeated results haven't damaged the diversity of the metagame in the process.

I haven't made any claims to you contesting the outcome of the tournament. There is no contesting it, really, because no rules were broken and the results of this game (since it's not a judged sport) are discrete. While you might personally be disappointed that the match was unpleasant to watch, you should really keep it personal. Armada did nothing wrong, and the idea that what he did was somehow worse than his usual play is entirely subjective.

As to damaging the metagame: if this type of gameplay "damages" the metagame, I think it's inevitable. You can't fix a game that is altogether broken. Players will stop agreeing to contrived soft-rules about camping, or they will contest the rules since they are poorly defined in the first place. Eventually, these strategies will arise again, since they aren't really able to be banned.

However, I don't personally believe it will do anything like that. Instead, I feel it will just lead to players picking up additional characters. It will likely make the metagame more diverse.