This is where I'm gonna complain about Zelda

[LovinMitts]

Why is Zelda so safe? She has ridiculously strong moves with low startup and ending/landing lag. She has forward smash, fair and bair. Forward smash is especially annoying because it can just be kinda tossed out because of how long it has active hitboxes compared to how little ending lag it has, AND it's disjointed.

Nayru's love is pretty jank too, since it has way too much range for how much damage it could do it you take enough of the multihits. And in the same way that forward smash is safe, Nayru's has almost no ending lag. It also reflects projectiles, so good luck approaching that.

Din's fire would be tolerable if Zelda didn't already have more than enough tools, but this makes it even worse because she can essentially make any part of the stage under her control. So not only can she beat out almost any approach, she can control space in a very passive manner with minimal effort.

I can tolerate her recovery since it's similar to Sheik's in how you deal with it, although slightly different. I'm not a fan of the hitbox when she reappears, but it's not a huge deal since it's not incredibly useful unless you're facing a spacie and want to set up techchase situation or whatever.

But the throws. The throws. I hated Sheik's DI traps with back throw and down throw in 3.5 (and I main her), and it's worse here since it can lead to an early stock. Since down throw is a free followup is you DI for back throw, and back throw is an early kill if you DI for down throw, it means you're either gonna get lightning kicked, or get killed at 90 by a throw. Screw that noise, man. Why wasn't that removed if they did it for Sheik?

It's nothing personal folks, just felt like venting about this character since my PM main (Ness) has a really awful matchup against her. If you managed to read this, you earn my respect.

TL;DR: I hate Zelda, she pisses me off, pls nerf, sackurye

 

[jtm94]

Zelda has no aerials that are + on shield. Ness's bair is probably more + on shield optimally than Zelda's fair/bair. It isn't as though Zelda has good shield pressure, she gets nothing off of kicking your shield because she cannot follow up on that at all.

Zelda's Nayrus is misleading and doesn't hit where the animation shows. She is completely vulnerable from above and below during it.

Din's Fire is a bad projectile. You can shield it, absorb it, hit it, and it does nothing. She is not fast enough to hit you for just destroying the dins.

Zelda's only DI mixup on her throws is fthrow. You can easily avoid this by always DIing for the fthrow and then changing your DI if she chooses to use backthrow or downthrow. Both of those throws are easily reacted to even by someone with below average reaction speed.

Zelda is currently not good. She's Melee+ Zelda and still loses to the same MUs she did before, and she still loses to the same things. She has a frame 11 jab, terrible ground speed, floaty nature that makes her susceptible to juggles, and a slower than normal grab with no guaranteed follow ups off of any of her throws.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Actually you should post this here (http://smashboards.com/threads/the-zelda-megadump-thread.353209/) instead of making another gripe thread. We get one of these every week, so please take your conduct to the dumping ground.

If you want to ask for match up assistance we'd be happy to help you. But if you just barge in flapping your gums about why you don't like our character then you will meet resistance. Please keep it civil.

 

[ZGE]

Zelda has no aerials that are + on shield. Ness's bair is probably more + on shield optimally than Zelda's fair/bair. It isn't as though Zelda has good shield pressure, she gets nothing off of kicking your shield because she cannot follow up on that at all.

Zelda's Nayrus is misleading and doesn't hit where the animation shows. She is completely vulnerable from above and below during it.

Din's Fire is a bad projectile. You can shield it, absorb it, hit it, and it does nothing. She is not fast enough to hit you for just destroying the dins.

Zelda's only DI mixup on her throws is fthrow. You can easily avoid this by always DIing for the fthrow and then changing your DI if she chooses to use backthrow or downthrow. Both of those throws are easily reacted to even by someone with below average reaction speed.

Zelda is currently not good. She's Melee+ Zelda and still loses to the same MUs she did before, and she still loses to the same things. She has a frame 11 jab, terrible ground speed, floaty nature that makes her susceptible to juggles, and a slower than normal grab with no guaranteed follow ups off of any of her throws.

Pretty much everything I would have said. Zelda is very beatable and loses to (most) characters with disjoints and speed. I've done the Zelda/Ness matchup a couple times against a decent Ness player and usually win because he can't do much to counter what I do (he also may not know the matchup too, but Zelda/Ness I would say is probably in Zelda's favor slightly or even).

 

[Prynne]

Din's fire would be tolerable if Zelda didn't already have more than enough tools, but this makes it even worse because she can essentially make any part of the stage under her control. So not only can she beat out almost any approach, she can control space in a very passive manner with minimal effort.

You should've seen us when we had 3.

 

[Sardonyx]

You should've seen us when we had 3.

^^^^^^^

 

[otheusrex]

Why is Zelda so safe? She has ridiculously strong moves with low startup and ending/landing lag. She has forward smash, fair and bair. Forward smash is especially annoying because it can just be kinda tossed out because of how long it has active hitboxes compared to how little ending lag it has, AND it's disjointed.

Nayru's love is pretty jank too, since it has way too much range for how much damage it could do it you take enough of the multihits. And in the same way that forward smash is safe, Nayru's has almost no ending lag. It also reflects projectiles, so good luck approaching that.

Din's fire would be tolerable if Zelda didn't already have more than enough tools, but this makes it even worse because she can essentially make any part of the stage under her control. So not only can she beat out almost any approach, she can control space in a very passive manner with minimal effort.

I can tolerate her recovery since it's similar to Sheik's in how you deal with it, although slightly different. I'm not a fan of the hitbox when she reappears, but it's not a huge deal since it's not incredibly useful unless you're facing a spacie and want to set up techchase situation or whatever.

But the throws. The throws. I hated Sheik's DI traps with back throw and down throw in 3.5 (and I main her), and it's worse here since it can lead to an early stock. Since down throw is a free followup is you DI for back throw, and back throw is an early kill if you DI for down throw, it means you're either gonna get lightning kicked, or get killed at 90 by a throw. Screw that noise, man. Why wasn't that removed if they did it for Sheik?

It's nothing personal folks, just felt like venting about this character since my PM main (Ness) has a really awful matchup against her. If you managed to read this, you earn my respect.

TL;DR: I hate Zelda, she pisses me off, pls nerf, sackurye

Well, since people have already adressed the subject in the normal way, let me change the subject slightly. Hypothetically, how would you design a Zelda that could win at high levels but also not annoy you? Just to show you that I'm genuinely interested in your answer, I'll go out on a limb first.

I have a lot of gripes about Bowser, for instance, the armor, huge shield damage mix up with special grab options... yet he practically loses the game when he gets grabbed. It's a weaknesses offsetting his strengths, sure, but those strengths are really aggravating. (Is that more or less what you're saying about Zelda?) Anyways, i'm sort of at a loss for what i would do for bowser to be able to take away those aggravating things since I really know little about him. I'm guessing maybe make him faster, or give him some sort of better zoning ability that didn't rely on special neutral options like armor for starts.

My point, more or less, is that it's a lot easier to point out problems than it is to offer solutions. And it's a lot easier to throw out vague suggestions than to find viable solutions. But nevertheless, I am interested what someone who hates Zelda would come up with as a solution to making her a decent character without being annoying, if he really put his mind to accomplishing both of those parameters and not just making her easier to deal with. An ideal Zelda maybe shouldn't be the vision of either one Zeldaphile or Zeldaphobe, but rather a mixture of ideas from both

 

[ECHOnce]

Zeldaphile or Zeldaphob

Perfection.

 

[4tlas]

Wait I just realized you're a Ness main. This is important.

1) This is a bad matchup for you. I'm sorry for your loss.
2) You're complaining about multihits that do a lot of damage. Yours do plenty of damage and lead to combos.
3) You're complaining about Dins controlling stage without her trying, which I assume means being near it. You're Ness. Just double absorb it for 20+ hp.
4) You're complaining about the throws. All 4 are different speeds, so just DI for the fastest (fthrow, so DI in front of her) then change when you see which throw it is. Bthrow is a kill throw so DI up to survive longer, dthrow is SLOOOOOW just DI behind her, and upthrow DI depending on what positioning/followup you want her to have. Your dthrow works better on her than any of hers work on you. Your bthrow is as much of a kill throw as hers is, but you have more mobility and your grab is faster.
5) You're complaining about safe moves. None of those moves you listed are safe on shield, and if you're not shielding you can just PK Fire her even if you don't want to risk some other approach during the endlag of her moves. Furthermore, Ness has the mobility to perform aerials while crossing up a shield, making them actually safe, while also having DJC to stop any "punish" Zelda has.

I have a Ness main as one of my crew members, and while we agree this MU is in Zelda's favor, nothing she has is unbeatable. In fact, Ness has a lot of the same things, and that's why I used to secondary Ness. If you want advice, I can ask him for opinions. If you just want to rant, I don't know what to say except that you'll find a way to beat her options eventually.