Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Scieric]

That actually sounds really smart. I think I'll try it sometime. Add it to my bag of other people's tricks.

 

[erico9001]

If you guys really want to utilize pivot f-tilt, use it when the opponent is above you. How close above you? If the opponent is really close to you from above, then yeah. Go for pivot f-tilt. U-tilt will be beaten to the punch if you use it from that distance. I went up against some Dr. Mario offline. Every time he was above me, I'd try going for the u-tilt but he was too close so his FF N-air managed to hit me first. Figured that it was more reliable and optimal to simply run back then pivot f-tilt

Was this in Monado Speed or arts that don't change speed?

 

[Berserker.]

Was this in Monado Speed or arts that don't change speed?

Arts that don't change your speed. It's a lot easier to utilize pivot f-tilt defensively with shield art imo. Speed art pivot f-tilt is much better for offensive purposes (tech chasing being one of its primary uses) but it's also pretty useful for spacing.... if you can read your opponent's movement. Pivot f-tilt with any art (sans maybe speed)+vanilla is basically used for defensive/spacing purposes

One more thing and I'll use Ike as an example just to make things a bit clearer. If you see Ike approaching with a n-air (-1 on block) and if he's somewhere close above you, just run back a bit then execute pivot f-tilt. You're gonna hit him and considering that Ike's aerial deceleration is garbage, he's basically committing to moving forward while n-airing so yeah. Free f-tilt

Edit: They don't have to be that close but if you know that they'll attempt to rush in with an aerial, you can counter it with pivot f-tilt. It's basically dependent on how they move and how you'll move, react, and space

 

[Linkmario00]

What about using Speed pivot Ftilt for hip check instead? We slide a lot and it should be quite safe on shield since you're behind them after the hit. May bea useful aaggressive tool.

 

[Berserker.]

What about using Speed pivot Ftilt for hip check instead? We slide a lot and it should be quite safe on shield since you're behind them after the hit. May bea useful aaggressive tool.

Like I said, speed pivot f-tilt is a great offensive option. I also feel that speed pivot f-tilt is a great way to punish landings from a far and I guess this applies too for speed pivot f-smash

 

[erico9001]

Arts that don't change your speed. It's a lot easier to utilize pivot f-tilt defensively with shield art imo. Speed art pivot f-tilt is much better for offensive purposes (tech chasing being one of its primary uses) but it's also pretty useful for spacing.... if you can read your opponent's movement. Pivot f-tilt with any art (sans maybe speed)+vanilla is basically used for defensive/spacing purposes

One more thing and I'll use Ike as an example just to make things a bit clearer. If you see Ike approaching with a n-air (-1 on block) and if he's somewhere close above you, just run back a bit then execute pivot f-tilt. You're gonna hit him and considering that Ike's aerial deceleration is garbage, he's basically committing to moving forward while n-airing so yeah. Free f-tilt

Edit: They don't have to be that close but if you know that they'll attempt to rush in with an aerial, you can counter it with pivot f-tilt. It's basically dependent on how they move and how you'll move, react, and space

I should probably do this.

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Anybody like shield breaks? I do.

We actually have a shield break combo, even in regular arts. Dair -> Buster MALLC -> F-smash. It won't truly break shields because they can unshield, but if they do that, they take lots of damage. You may be thinking, 'But doesn't Dair MALLC only really work in decisive arts?' That is true if the Dair is ON HIT. ON SHIELD, Dair can MALLC with regular or hyper arts, because there is less hitlag! And it does have enough strength to break shields. Now, Decisive arts or Hyper arts do have an advantage because they can break shields even if only the second hit of Dair hits. This protects the technique from perfect shields. So there you go. I would use this technique when you observe your opponent likes to shield your other aerials, and would not expect something that could break his shield. I have not personally successfully performed this technique in the heat of battle, but that does not mean I will not some day.

Something I have been successfully doing to break shields is Hyper or Decisive Buster B-throw -> Back Slash. It's natural for opponents to shield upon landing from a low knockback throw, for it's normally safe due to the no re-grab mechanic. Well, if you notice they already have a slightly weakened shield, and they are at a percent lower than where they would need to be if they were to have to tech the back throw (this is after 100% with hyper buster!), then you can plan to back throw them and back slash the shield. Due to more damage, it is most effective in hyper arts or decisive arts. In hyper arts, you can actually switch to hyper smash to get the early kill. Still technically possible in regular buster.
-This probably would not have been as good without the faster back slash!

 

[Scieric]

I love shield breaks. I can't wait to apply this in tournament. The thing is, can't they Shield jump before the DAir and just hit you? I don't see it as being very practical. If I'm wrong and this is practical, then GIVE! I WANT! BREAK SHIELD!

 

[erico9001]

I love shield breaks. I can't wait to apply this in tournament. The thing is, can't they Shield jump before the DAir and just hit you? I don't see it as being very practical. If I'm wrong and this is practical, then GIVE! I WANT! BREAK SHIELD!

You would want to use it against people who tend to stay in shield and punish with a shield grab or something. Though, they might end up trying that shield grab and eating an f-smash. Either way, shield break or just f-smash, it turns out well for you.

 

[Scieric]

I might try it against players of Smash 4

 

[TheHopefulHero]

I should probably do this.

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Anybody like shield breaks? I do.

We actually have a shield break combo, even in regular arts. Dair -> Buster MALLC -> F-smash. It won't truly break shields because they can unshield, but if they do that, they take lots of damage. You may be thinking, 'But doesn't Dair MALLC only really work in decisive arts?' That is true if the Dair is ON HIT. ON SHIELD, Dair can MALLC with regular or hyper arts, because there is less hitlag! And it does have enough strength to break shields. Now, Decisive arts or Hyper arts do have an advantage because they can break shields even if only the second hit of Dair hits. This protects the technique from perfect shields. So there you go. I would use this technique when you observe your opponent likes to shield your other aerials, and would not expect something that could break his shield. I have not personally successfully performed this technique in the heat of battle, but that does not mean I will not some day.

Something I have been successfully doing to break shields is Hyper or Decisive Buster B-throw -> Back Slash. It's natural for opponents to shield upon landing from a low knockback throw, for it's normally safe due to the no re-grab mechanic. Well, if you notice they already have a slightly weakened shield, and they are at a percent lower than where they would need to be if they were to have to tech the back throw (this is after 100% with hyper buster!), then you can plan to back throw them and back slash the shield. Due to more damage, it is most effective in hyper arts or decisive arts. In hyper arts, you can actually switch to hyper smash to get the early kill. Still technically possible in regular buster.
-This probably would not have been as good without the faster back slash!

Maybe we should call this tech. Shield Bash? ... I'll show myself out.

In all seriousness, this actually a good tactic against patient players or shield happy players. Force them to fight you or you bash their shield.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

How are you spacing the dair so you don't get shield-grabbed? Even with MALLC I feel like that you'd get grabbed/punished/they'd roll away before the FSmash came out. I know you said it's for people who sit in shield but I don't feel like they'd sit for THAT long.

 

[Berserker.]

How are you spacing the dair so you don't get shield-grabbed? Even with MALLC I feel like that you'd get grabbed/punished/they'd roll away before the FSmash came out. I know you said it's for people who sit in shield but I don't feel like they'd sit for THAT long.

2nd hit has pretty good amount of shield knockback and hitsun, I guess. Maybe enough for an f-tilt follow up or possibly an f-smash

Edit: Okay. Erico confirmed it. Nvm lol

 

[erico9001]

How are you spacing the dair so you don't get shield-grabbed? Even with MALLC I feel like that you'd get grabbed/punished/they'd roll away before the FSmash came out. I know you said it's for people who sit in shield but I don't feel like they'd sit for THAT long.

I tested this online against Masonomace to make sure they couldn't do anything like that. He couldn't. Though, it could be possible the slight input lag from online caused that.

 

[Scieric]

If I ever get this against sometime I'm saving the replay and uploading it to YouTube. What would be the best punish afterwards if we cannot kill with Smash Art? Just a fully charged FSmash?

 

[erico9001]

If I ever get this against sometime I'm saving the replay and uploading it to YouTube. What would be the best punish afterwards if we cannot kill with Smash Art? Just a fully charged FSmash?

Yep.

 

[Scieric]

Lame. don't like

 

[erico9001]

Lame. don't like

Actually wait, I think Up Smash has higher damage because of the removal of freshness from F-smash due to hitting the shield. Up Smash fully charged is 37.04% with freshness while F-smash fully charged is 36.26% without freshness.

 

[Scieric]

Still, nothing cool that does more. I'll take 37% though. And at 50% or higher a fully charged sweetspot USmash will kill many characters. Namely, most of the top tiers if not all.

 

[Berserker.]

So I'm back and I have more ideas about jump and speed art. Of course, same goes for buster and smash art plus land chasing punishment, plus MABC so anyway....

Someone attempted to time out buster art by staying on the ledge. The best thing you can do is to basically use attacks that are able to hit ledge grabbing opponents (f-smash, f-air, n-air). If they try to jump off, just whack them. Lol, they're free. If they air dodge from jumping from the ledge, it's still a free punish (b-air, n-air, f-air, whatever, f-smash). If they're trying to outrun you in buster art by running circles around you, just read their aerial movement. It's basically kind of like the Yoshi match-up where you basically catch them off with your range, which isn't that hard at all. Buster f-throw is great if you want to keep your opponent grounded. The angle of f-throw is 45 degrees so it doesn't really send the opponent high up at all so you can possibly set-up for a dash attack or hell even f-smash at a low percent

tl;dr timing out buster doesn't work

About jump art, fast falling into dash grabs are extremely important. Known fact. The throw you should be aiming to use are the throws that send them up into mid-air. Those being d-throw and u-throw. F-throw and b-throw aren't all that useful unless you want to throw them off-stage (so basically, use any of the two if you're near the edge). Regarding u-throw, it seems like u-throw can possibly true combo (?) into u-air. I went on Shulk dittos and this worked on me almost consistently. I guess this is a throw kill combo for Shulk now along with u-throw > air slash. When it comes to ledge trapping with jump art, the number 1 move you're going to want to land when the time comes is n-air. N-air is an amazing ledge trapping option which can cover any option from the ledge. Once you land n-air and the opponent is at ~60%, that's basically death for them. I've tried going for f-air and b-air. They're not bad for ledge trapping with jump but the thing is you don't really get that much potential follow ups from the two moves. Although both aerials basically put you at an advantage, it doesn't really true combo into another f-air (although f-air > f-air is possible, but difficult to pull off) or anything like that (as far as I've tried). Fishing for n-air seems to be the number 1 thing in jump art and you can manage to land n-air by setting your opponent into a disadvantageous situation. How? Well, this is where the mix up grabs get in. You use those grabs or throws to set the opponent into a horrible position. Once they make a mistake, punish it with n-air then kill them. You can force them to make a mistake by simply conditioning them into doing things like air dodging or mis-spacing attacks

tl;dr combos and touch of deaths and ****. fish for the n-air and grab for set-ups and follow ups

I feel like the game plan of the neutral with speed art is pretty much similar to jump art with more emphasis with boost pivots and grounded options but overall, it's similar. You have a lower jump which makes it easier to cross up with n-air and f-air. Your increased dash speed and walk speed allow you to break into zones easily and to punish from extremely long distances. There's more reason to walk because Shulk's walking speed is amazing (fastest in the game) so things like walk > d-tilt (lol) and... well walking in general is a good idea that people need to abuse more rather than just dash > shield grab. Mix it up between walking and running. Plus, walking is generally a better and more versatile option than dashing in a sense that you're not restricted to simply dash attacking, shielding, u-smashing, or jumping. Boost pivot grab is your god..... buuuut other than the mentioned differences, yeah. Just FF into grab when the opponent is shielding to much then d-throw > f-air > anything, space with f-airs and n-airs, go in with n-air when you can. Blah. It's all kind of the same. It's just that you have more options on the ground which makes your offensive mix-ups much better. Anyway, speed pivot f-tilt is great for offensive purposes. It's also safe on shield from what I've tested so I'll just throw that out there even if it's known

tl;dr speed art is kinda like jump art with more grounded options. walk more often please. THANKS

I know a lot of people had been having a somewhat low opinion on Smash art (myself included) but it becomes godlike once you have the opponent on the ledge because once they're on the ledge and they're at the appropriate percent, there's a good chance that you will manage to kill them for as long as you remember your ledge trapping options. I've consistently managed to land u-tilt for the kill mostly then there's b-air and pivot f-tilt. Yeah. Something again about pivot f-tilt, it's great for dealing with ledge rolls and for... well.... punishing rolls in general actually. I'm not sure why I don't see a lot of people use pivot f-tilt that much so, I'd say keep on using it because it's one of your safer tools in general regardless of which art you're using. So learn to love Smash art when they're grabbing the ledge. Although this has been known for quite a while, I only realize how favorable it is to go for Smash art just now or actually 2 days ago. You're not going to get punished if you attempt to land a KO with smash art via ledge trapping unless you go for the options that have a lot of commitment like f-smash or u-smash or d-smash, or maybe even b-air

tl;dr if the opponent is near the ledge and he or she or its at a reasonable KO percent, go for smash even if you're also at KO percentage

One thing I've neglected so much is how godlike Shulk's land chasing is. With speed art, of course it's godlike but his range alone makes it scary for anyone to land against the character. Your main tools for punishing landings are dash attack, f-smash, back slash, and dash u-smash. Dash attack is surprisingly good for punishing landings for as long as you know how to space it and time it. Plus, the range is still pretty decent anyway and to add to that, it can kill with smash art activated at low percents and it can hit like a truck in buster art and landing dash attack in buster art can lead to potential follow ups if the opponent is at the right percent. F-smash is great because range. The end. Make sure you aim f-smash up for maximum KO potential. Back slash is great for the same reasons as f-smash but it's a bit more riskier but hey. It's 100% more stylish and style means everything (sort of) :>. Dash u-smash is kind of difficult to land since its horizontal range is quite lacking but it makes up for that by having a lasting hitbox on its first hit which not even some of us know about. Basically, use this as a means to read aerial movement. It's probably kinda free against characters with **** air deceleration

About buffered deactivation, so far, I've gotten used to buster d-throw > BD > air slash. So yeah, that's legit. I haven't gotten the timing with the other MABC combos. Also, MALLC f-air is still unsafe from what I've tested. It's still lacking shield stun so you're still gonna get shield grabbed regardless of how well you space it. F-air is only safe if retreating in jump, speed or possibly vanilla or if you're in buster art. It's probably gonna stay that way (still hoping for the well-deserved f-air damage buffs)

 

[Linkmario00]

Wait what? MALLC perfectly spaced Fair isn't safe on shield? Are you sure? This sounds dumb to me. They can't directly shieldgrab because they're not in range, and since you have no lag I doubt they have the time for dropping shield and dash grab you lol.

 

[Berserker.]

Wait what? MALLC perfectly spaced Fair isn't safe on shield? Are you sure? This sounds dumb to me. They can't directly shieldgrab because they're not in range, and since you have no lag I doubt they have the time for dropping shield and dash grab you lol.

They can still shield grab you because the shield stun from f-air isn't enough (it's waaay too low). So even if you land f-air on their shield, they still have enough time to dash grab you before MALLC happens. Vanilla f-air was never safe on shield anyway so this shouldn't come off as a surprise. You shouldn't worry about this though against characters with ridiculously slow dash grabs like Link, ZSS, or Samus

Idk. I tried this like about ~10 times and I still got shield grabbed for it

Edit: Oh here

It's safer, but unless the opposing character has really poor out of shield game, odds are you're still very vulnerable. Sometimes even if you space perfectly

 

[Locke 06]

They can still shield grab you because the shield stun from f-air isn't enough (it's waaay too low). So even if you land f-air on their shield, they still have enough time to dash grab you before MALLC happens. Vanilla f-air was never safe on shield anyway so this shouldn't come off as a surprise. You shouldn't worry about this though against characters with ridiculously slow dash grabs like Link, ZSS, or Samus

Idk. I tried this like about ~10 times and I still got shield grabbed for it

Edit: Oh here

Time the FAir and the mallc better.

Git gud scrub. <3

 

[Berserker.]

Time the FAir and the mallc better.

Git gud scrub. <3

Ur faec </3

 

[Scieric]

Please trash talk somewhere else. This is for talking about Shulk and what he is capable of as a character. But I agree that if the MALLC is timed right and fast-falled then you should immediately be able to run away and avoid punishment. Especially in Speed.

 

[Locke 06]

Please trash talk somewhere else. This is for talking about Shulk and what he is capable of as a character. But I agree that if the MALLC is timed right and fast-falled then you should immediately be able to run away and avoid punishment. Especially in Speed.

@ Berserker. Knows I'm mostly poking fun while actually being productive. I'm pretty sure he's wrong. Don't you have intangibility frames on MA posing? I thought we confirmed it wasn't z-axis shenanigans by trying it on duck hunt. Because intangibility frames = safe. Moreover, you can interrupt it with shielding out of intangibility (PS>punish?).

Unless you're being punished before you can land, if you time it right, you should be at a huge advantage standing next to your opponent with intangibility frames that you can interrupt whenever you want (in the art of your choosing) while they are restricted to OoS options.

 

[Zatchiel]

But I agree that if the MALLC is timed right and fast-falled then you should immediately be able to run away and avoid punishment. Especially in Speed.

Well when you dash, there is literally nothing you can do for the span of several frames. So unless the opposing character has crummy OoS, you're at much greater risk with dashing than almost anything else.

But if it works for you, then more power to you.

Because intangibility frames = safe.

And lack of shield safety = not safe. You don't get intangibility frames until the art activates. And before the art activates, you have a landing situation to account for (typically aerial vs. shield).

If you hit raw shield, you'll be safe if the art activates before they can get out of shield. That's where shield safety ties into the equation.

This goes back to what Berserker said. F-air is one of, if not the the worst in terms of safety, but it's still easily one of the most useful aerials for mallc.

 

[Locke 06]

And lack of shield safety = not safe. You don't get intangibility frames until the art activates. And before the art activates, you have a landing situation to account for (typically aerial vs. shield).

If you hit raw shield, you'll be safe if the art activates before they can get out of shield. That's where shield safety ties into the equation.

This goes back to what Berserker said. F-air is one of, if not the the worst in terms of safety, but it's still easily one of the most useful aerials for mallc.

The majority of FAir's lack of safety is it's landing lag. Spacing makes you avoid most OoS options so you should be able to reach the ground by the time they get out of shield. If you time the MALLC correctly, you eliminate all landing lag and you're safer than Sheik's autocanceled FAir because you're intangible, you have space, and you have no lag.

By itself, yes it is unsafe, but you get to throw out a free hitbox with MALLC... Unless I'm missing something.

 

[Zatchiel]

The majority of FAir's lack of safety is it's landing lag. Spacing makes you avoid most OoS options so you should be able to reach the ground by the time they get out of shield. If you time the MALLC correctly, you eliminate all landing lag and you're safer than Sheik's autocanceled FAir because you're intangible, you have space, and you have no lag.

By itself, yes it is unsafe, but you get to throw out a free hitbox with MALLC... Unless I'm missing something.

You are correct. But yes, you are also missing something: Vanilla f-air is pretty weak, especially if you space it.

About 5% on beam hit? The shield stun on that is almost negligible. Even with mallc, you have a negative frame advantage (or frame disadvantage) on shield.

If an enemy can close the distance you just gave yourself, and interrupt you before that art activates, the mallc doesn't happen. The only thing is, a lot of characters have a tough time getting out of shield and doing that if you space well.

I know this probably doesn't need saying, but powershields and advancing shields negate mallc in essence. When confronting shields, it's only decent against those that are idle.

 

[Berserker.]

It's really the damage output that really kills the potential for MALLC f-air to even work for hitting shields. Even with the right timing and right spacing, the chance of getting punished is still pretty noticeable. I only abuse this as a shield-harassing tool against characters with slow grabs/dash grabs. I mean, the reason why MALLC b-air is safe because of its range and well, tipping it still deals more damage than sweetspotting f-air (but mostly, b-air is safe due to its range and damage output if sweetspotted). That's actually kinda sad when you think about it but then again, it's frame ~20 so it should deal more damage anyway

THEN AGAIN, MALLC f-air is still useful for other purposes. Whacking shields ain't one of them

 

[Scieric]

One of which is starting combos I will assume. I've yet to test this but what about Fair -> Speed MALLC -> USmash?

 

[Zatchiel]

I've yet to test this but what about Fair -> Speed MALLC -> USmash?

Doesn't work, unfortunately. F-air doesn't yield enough stun for you to follow up with u-smash, even out of mallc.

N-air -> Speed mallc u-smash works though. Then again, it works without the mallc too, so that's not surprising.


Edit: Oh boy. F-air -> Smash mallc f-smash can kill DK near the ledge from 56%. I believe you are on to something, Scieric.

 

[ksizl4life]

Hey all, ksizzle of VitaminZK here. We have a video series detailing a breakdown on the latest patch and we recently released a video for various characters including Shulk. Hope you enjoy!

 

[Scieric]

Wait. 22 frames?! Damn.

Doesn't work, unfortunately. F-air doesn't yield enough stun for you to follow up with u-smash, even out of mallc.

N-air -> Speed mallc u-smash works though. Then again, it works without the mallc too, so that's not surprising.


Edit: Oh boy. F-air -> Smash mallc f-smash can kill DK near the ledge from 56%. I believe you are on to something, Scieric.

And on other characters (lighter ones) it should work even earlier. Watch out Sheik! If I Fair MALLC you at the ledge near 30%, you're not having the prettiest stock. (OK, probably not THAT early)

EDIT: It doesn't seem to be working. What do you think I'm doing wrong? I did FAir MALLC FSmash and It's not linking right. As in at all.

 

[erico9001]

The discussion of what you can do after a MALLC is pretty interesting to me, since I don't think I'm making the right choices after I do successfully MALLC.

What I'm going to say has nothing to do with that. Bait an air dodge by making it look like you're going to Fair or Uair, then Air Slash or Reverse Air Slash.

But I'm really curious about the MALLC stuff.

When you MALLC after your aerial hits a shield, should you grab, use some sort of other attack, run/jump away, or spot dodge? This is something I am curious about, since it seems much more likely for our MALLC's aerials to hit shields than to hit hurtboxes.

 

[Zatchiel]

Watch out Sheik! If I Fair MALLC you at the ledge near 30%, you're not having the prettiest stock. (OK, probably not THAT early)

No, you're correct. It kills Sheik off the side from 39%. And this is just with default Smash art.

EDIT: It doesn't seem to be working. What do you think I'm doing wrong? I did FAir MALLC FSmash and It's not linking right. As in at all.

You need to have 100% forward momentum going into the mallc, so you're as close to them as possible when the f-air hits (blade hitbox, to be specific). Other than that, all I can guess is timing. If your art doesn't activate on time then they are too far away to follow up with f-smash.

You can get it as a three hit combo (f-air -> f-smash 1 -> 2) or two hit (f-air -> f-smash 2), but I think it kills about the same with either.

Once again, n-air -> mallc Smash f-smash is easier to chain and gives the same results. I wouldn't sweat it if you can't get the combo with f-air.

When you MALLC after your aerial hits a shield, should you grab, use some sort of other attack, run/jump away, or spot dodge? This is something I am curious about, since it seems much more likely for our MALLC's aerials to hit shields than to hit hurtboxes.

It strongly depends on two things: What aerial you used and your opponent's options out of shield.

If you use b-air mallc, I think you always have frame advantage against idle shields. Same might be true of tipper n-air. You never on have it on f-air, and I don't know about d-air/u-air.

It will usually narrow down to the guessing game, since Shulk's frame data is poor. If I think they'll go for an attack or grab I don't do anything and just take the invincibility. Otherwise, it really depends. But I try not to use the same option twice in a row to lessen my chances of getting baited.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Is there any practical way to incorporate fair > MALLC Smash fsmash? If you have to be super close to your opponent, that's really unsafe and I don't see any opportunity where you would be able to safely land that pointblank fair. I can see nair working since it's safer but I'm still failing to think of a scenario where nair/fair > MALLC Smash fsmash would work without being punished

 

[kenniky]

Punishing edge getup maybe? or unsafe recoveries.

Doesn't seem like something you'd just be able to throw out in neutral anyway.

 

[Zatchiel]

Is there any practical way to incorporate fair > MALLC Smash fsmash? If you have to be super close to your opponent, that's really unsafe and I don't see any opportunity where you would be able to safely land that pointblank fair. I can see nair working since it's safer but I'm still failing to think of a scenario where nair/fair > MALLC Smash fsmash would work without being punished

Practically no. This should not work in an actual match unless your opponent commits hard for someone that has their back to the ledge.

Other mallc are much more feasible, like Jump, Speed, and Buster. Mainly because they are more quickly accessible than Smash anyway. And their follow-ups are much more useful at the percents that they work.

Short hop f-air -> mallc Jump f-smash is much quicker, easier to do, and far more practical in neutral. I also like mallc into Buster when they're at the ledge because you can chew shields up with a down smash.

 

[Berserker.]

About art canceling with d-air and u-air, it's relatively safe because the 2nd hit deals a lot of damage. It's safe to the point that you have a chance to follow up an f-smash on shield. Art canceling with d-air and u-air is difficult to time though so, eh

 

[Scieric]

About art canceling with d-air and u-air, it's relatively safe because the 2nd hit deals a lot of damage. It's safe to the point that you have a chance to follow up an f-smash on shield. Art canceling with d-air and u-air is difficult to time though so, eh

Yeah, but it's practically useless.