Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[erico9001]

Hey I just realized I can finally reverse back slash twice. I used to try this in Smash 3ds, but it never worked because I was too slow with the circlepad.

 

[SoniCraft]

Reverse back slash twice? Please elaborate for the uneducated if you don't mind.

 

[JackPR]

Shulk is such an amazing and versatile character, with the Wii U version I improved greatly. Practicing with him has made me better at almost every character, it's amazing! Practicing FF Nair helped with a lot of characters that use this same technique, MSpeed helps me practice dash grabs with fast characters, MJump helps me with characters like Falco who require goos control in the air, and practicing defensive play helps with characters that punish a lot, like Charizard.

That aside, I have been having trouble with the Megaman MU. The scrubby ones are a joke, but a good Megaman zones me hard, and shield grabs my Nairs basically everytime. Speed didn't help me very much because of Megaman's aerials. What do you guys think helps agianst him?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Less Nair, more Fair. It's a hard lesson, learn it well. Apply it everywhere.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Less Nair, more Fair. It's a hard lesson, learn it well. Apply it everywhere.

Couldn't agree more. Before the patch, N-air felt overall better but ever since the landing lag for F-air was reduced, it's been a move that I've loved.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Well, I'm 3/4 of the way through writing a small novel on the Robin/Shulk match-up with Raz. We'll finish tomorrow and post it.

For now, however, have some video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcmQmzpvMo0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu_4NC0g15w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_IwYnPrdMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ViasiJOQk

 

[Berserker.]

Less Nair, more Fair. It's a hard lesson, learn it well. Apply it everywhere.

I'll spread the gospel

Well, I'm 3/4 of the way through writing a small novel on the Robin/Shulk match-up with Raz. We'll finish tomorrow and post it.

For now, however, have some video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcmQmzpvMo0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu_4NC0g15w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_IwYnPrdMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ViasiJOQk

You okay with me adding these to the video thread?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

i like how all shulks now agree together that speed is the ****.

 

[Berserker.]

i like how all shulks now agree together that speed is the ****.

You can't argue with how it practically has no debuffs

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I feel DMA is viable just for being even faster longer speed with practically no drawbacks.
too much of a good thing....is a great thing.

 

[Zephil]

Jump is not as useful as Speed overall, but match-up dependent is a great tool in neutral. However, Jump's real strength is in allowing you to jump around like an idiot waiting for Speed or Buster or Smash or Shield. That and being able to switch to it in order to recover or go deep after knocking an opponent off stage.

Man, seeing everyone talk about being able to play so cautiously and gratuitous use of Shield is making me wish I didn't end up playing against Robin, ROB, Greninja, Lucario, Rosalina, Villager, and Link. Shield as but a desperate attempt to hold your stock longer against a character with decent speed and a projectile is just asking to gain percent and be back where you started.

That's exactly what I think about Shield specially at early %s. If a smart opponent has good zoning they will just zone Shield hulk yet I still think Shield & Smash have value at early %s in certain matchups but not in all of them. Maybe starting with Smash against Fox might work as it may break the utilt strings as also maybe Shield vs Marth might mess up with the tip spacing.

We need to experiment more with these arts...

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You okay with me adding these to the video thread?

Go ahead.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh @ #HBC | Ryker and @ Raziek

Thanks guys for doing 1 hour of Shulk vs Robin. It's one of those match ups where most Shulks had trouble with yet no one here had a solid answer to it (I don't fight Robins a lot at all so I usually don't talk about it that much or at all). Same can be said for the Robin boards since they rarely talk about the match up, although UltimaStrike plays with Jerm (I think). I've been there and there's barely that much discussion about it. Sorry about any post that made you guys cringe

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Going to another Character's forum and reading about their encounter with the Shulk matchup is a good way to learn how an opponent might play against you. What will punish what, etc etc. V good strategy.

 

[Raziek]

Oh @ #HBC | Ryker and @ Raziek

Thanks guys for doing 1 hour of Shulk vs Robin. It's one of those match ups where most Shulks had trouble with yet no one here had a solid answer to it (I don't fight Robins a lot at all so I usually don't talk about it that much or at all). Same can be said for the Robin boards since they rarely talk about the match up, although UltimaStrike plays with Jerm (I think). I've been there and there's barely that much discussion about it. Sorry about any post that made you guys cringe

You can thank us once we're done writing the bible on it.

We both just got really annoyed with people saying blatantly wrong stuff about the match-up, and we're practice partners ANYWAY, so it seemed the natural conclusion to just do it ourselves.

Ultima does play with Jerm, but Ultima is also exceedingly pessimistic most of the time, and quite likely outskilled by Jerm by a decent margin. I actually ended up setting up my recording specifically BECAUSE he was complaining in the Skype chat at the time about losing it, haha.

Spoilers: Robin doesn't lose this match-up, ratio-wise.

 

[Berserker.]

Can't wait for the huge write up

Anyway about another VERY POPULAR topic, Diddy is slightly more bearable than before but is still really annoying anyway. I applied ZeRo's tidbits. It works but I don't do it consistently. Sometimes, I actually miss vectoring just because Diddy's u-air is bonkers

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Can't wait for the huge write up

Anyway about another VERY POPULAR topic, Diddy is slightly more bearable than before but is still really annoying anyway. I applied ZeRo's tidbits. It works but I don't do it consistently. Sometimes, I actually miss vectoring just because Diddy's u-air is bonkers

What'd Z say about the matchup

 

[Berserker.]

What'd Z say about the matchup

• Diddy's Down Throw up air STOPS working around 80% on MOST chars, based on your horizontal air movement if you hold BEHIND him as he throws
• At 0%, DI Diddy's Down Throw ABOVE HIM, and then DI in front of him, this way, ONLY one up air will string you and not TWO if you di behind
• If you hit Diddy Kong's recovery while he's charging it, he literally INSTANTLY dies, EDGEGUARD HIM, he's REALLY vulnerable off stage
• Use long lasting moves vs Diddy's recover, smack his side B until he's not at ledge level, drop down with a long lasting move on his upb GG
• Diddy's best stage is Halberd and Final Destination - Halberd due to early KO's due to vertical blastzone and FD due to no landing options
• Whenever Diddy grabs you, hold behind him, almost always, ESPECIALLY at kill percents - you may take a f-air in, but won't die to up air
• Diddy Kong players usually roll behind you to either d tilt, or run shield or try to grab you, to fight this, grab him first or spot dodge
• Your mentality vs Diddy is to not get grabbed, get him off stage, gimp him, watch out for side b mix ups when he holds a banana
• The thing that makes diddy actually really good in this game is that shields lack pushback when hit and he has grab combos dont get grabbed
• Ok one more thing before back to anime tweeting - diddys usually side b when you shield too often or when they hold a banana, SPOT DODGE IT

 

[DavemanCozy]

After briefly skimming through and watching those videos, it's apparent to me that Robin is not easy for Shulk.

From a first impression and inexperience in the matchup, I'm personally leaning towards a 60:40 (at the very least) after watching the videos. Shulk can't go whiffing moves, that Levin Sword really hurts (I saw a lot of OoS levin aerial or Smash). It also seems like our disjointed hits, and both Speed and Jump can help get past Robin's spells, but Robin can also trap us for KO setups or to increase damage. Looks tough for Shulk, IMO.

 

[Raziek]

That's about right. The number we were going to slap on it is 58:42.

Because it's not QUITE a 6:4, but alllllmost is.

 

[Masonomace]

Jump is not as useful as Speed overall, but match-up dependent is a great tool in neutral. However, Jump's real strength is in allowing you to jump around like an idiot waiting for Speed or Buster or Smash or Shield. That and being able to switch to it in order to recover or go deep after knocking an opponent off stage.

Man, seeing everyone talk about being able to play so cautiously and gratuitous use of Shield is making me wish I didn't end up playing against Robin, ROB, Greninja, Lucario, Rosalina, Villager, and Link. Shield as but a desperate attempt to hold your stock longer against a character with decent speed and a projectile is just asking to gain percent and be back where you started.

Activating Jump & jumping around on-stage is a good strength to have for waiting out time for sure. That helps avoid being damaged in Neutral unlike Buster, but it's mostly Jump's falling speed stat that's a bit rogue for me. At times you're airborne above stage you can just FF & be okay if you're confident you won't have any trouble upon landing, but when FF'ing while drifting away or autopilot-drifting toward them in hopes to avoid them is a risk especially without any safe B-Reverse options to mix-up your landing; we'd have to de-activate a MArt if it's active, switch to Jump, & B-Reverse it + AD or an aerial FF to make it a safe landing (all of that in such a small window of time though, that will require practice with the airborne placement). Attempting any cheezy jumping with Jump on a small stage imo is worse than Speed, so yeah I agree.

As for Shield I oddly think of using the Art at any time during the match, even when against heavy projectile characters like Link Lucario ROB & Robin. I rely on Shield as more than just a Second Wind moment when at a dangerous % health.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Doesn't feel 60:40 to me at all. More like governing between 50-5X in Robins. I've played Robin a handful of times and noted before that personal mistakes felt more pressing. Mind you Im a very Speed/Vanilla heavy player. With little on-stage use of Jump, and I avoid shield entirely during the match up unless trying to mitigate a juggle.

Now Masonomace For your DMA section. You have Decisive Buster F-air listed as 10 and 8% respectively.
Is this Wii U or 3ds? As in 3ds a quick run in training shows 11.x% and 9.x%,
Nair - 12% sweet spot, 10% sour.
Is this Wii U and 3ds data conflicting?

On a side note. The more I play it? The more I think AAS is poop. The loss of ability to go deep with Shulk because of poor ass AAS recov drives me up the wall. It seems to completely conflict with my playstyle and what I want of Shulk. It's interesting on platform stages but I don't see it as anymore applicable OOS then regular AS and regular AS is just as practical to hit in my experience and if you Jump OOS it helps confirm it in the situations where it is iffy on the ground.

Anyways I'll link Shayas data relating to hitlag/shieldstun here if it aids any future discussion for any of our MU's
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-173#post-18101666


Based on this a 12% move is around 5.x shield stun...which our tipper nair does in Decisive Buster.
Did anyone ever find out what Nairs AC lag is? Apparently DK's is 5 frames.

Moving on.
As well Dec Speed has greater zone breaking, and a stronger grab game. Default speed is already the faster walker, and Dec speed enhances that further.


As for Robin specifically.
If we want to talk it out. My experience is straight up Fire/Arcthunder being threats. Levin Sword is nuts but breaking past the zoning is the most critical step. Speed can do this quite reliably, except for Arcthunder.
Robins main options from shield against Shulk given N-air and possibly F-air should presumably only truly be Jab,Dtilt, and a potential grab. I believe Buster or at least Dec&hyper buster can discredit the grab. The frames from Shield drop might also discredit Jab but we're lacking data?

 

[Masonomace]

Now Masonomace For your DMA section. You have Decisive Buster F-air listed as 10 and 8% respectively.
Is this Wii U or 3ds? As in 3ds a quick run in training shows 11.x% and 9.x%,
Nair - 12% sweet spot, 10% sour.
Is this Wii U and 3ds data conflicting?

I just looked at the tables & DBuster says 11% & 9% in the 2nd table. I think you were looking at the Buster in the 1st table noticing every other MArt have a (D) beside them & maybe thought that Buster was (D)Buster. DBuster in the 2nd table says 11% for the sweetspot & 9% for the sourspot. Same for the N-air.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You caught me, that is certainly a confusing pattern break.

 

[Masonomace]

You caught me, that is certainly a confusing pattern break.

Yeah I really want to make those tables more organized. But every DMArt's damage factor is unchanged besides Buster & Dbuster, not to mention DBuster with the HMArts is confusing to look at kinda. . .

If anyone has ideas about the organization of the Damage Tables, lemme know 'cus I'd like to make 'em clean & pretty.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

(D) damage in parenthesis?

 

[Masonomace]

(D) damage in parenthesis?

Yeah that stands for Decisive Monado Arts. I have it in parenthesis for Jump Speed Shield & Smash 'cus with or without the D involved, they all deal the same damage. I'm thinking about getting rid of the (D)s

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Thats what I mean.
Put (D) Buster with D damage in ().

That'll leave Hyper arts on their own.

 

[Masonomace]

I'll mess with the Table later tonight / tomorrow. Anyhow thanks for the idea but I'd have to separate the damages with color coding with the (D) for Buster's column.

Hopefully I play against a Diddy tonight because I wanna alter their D-throw shenanigans with Shield or Smash's knockback defense.

 

[Bittersweet]

So I've found that SH Fair with MSpeed is an absolute godsend. And Fair in general. And MSpeed in general.

 

[FlareHabanero]

For Robin vs. Shulk, here are details.

-Thunder and Elthunder can be cancelled with aerial attacks. Arcfire can technically be stopped, but due to the properties it's not safe to do so the normal way. You can however stop it if you preform a forward smash or back aerial at the tip of the blade. Thoron can't be stopped.
-Arcfire stops if hit, but can't be stopped.
-Both Arcfire and Arcthunder ignore Vision. Shulk will still activate Vision, but since both attacks continue to hit like normal Shulk will be hit regardless.
-Monado Arts influence how much damage Nosferatu inflicts, but healing is still the same regardless.
-Robin's normal attacks are mediocre, at least in terms of range and power. The only ones that pose any threat are the Levin Sword versions of the aerial attacks.

Also, is every Robin player playing just like Ness supposed to be normal? Because I have a feeling that's not normal.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

That's about right. The number we were going to slap on it is 58:42.

Because it's not QUITE a 6:4, but alllllmost is.

I would just say +1 because I think that's a better system anyway.

 

[MarioFireRed]

I'm a bit confused on the Robin matchup with Shulk, primarily since I never faced another person who used Robin so far.

Someone mind telling me what puts the matchup around 6:4 in Robin's favor?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

-Both Arcfire and Arcthunder ignore Vision. Shulk will still activate Vision, but since both attacks continue to hit like normal Shulk will be hit regardless.

That's wrong. The forward version works most of the time. I haven't isolated which does or doesn't. I assume it's because Shulk becomes invincible.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm a bit confused on the Robin matchup with Shulk, primarily since I never faced another person who used Robin so far.

Someone mind telling me what puts the matchup around 6:4 in Robin's favor?

Give me an hour and it'll be on both boards.

 

[MarioFireRed]

Alright thanks man, appreciate it.

 

[Masonomace]

So I've found that SH Fair with MSpeed is an absolute godsend. And Fair in general. And MSpeed in general.

Obscure but with Speed active, a buffered SH > U-air is a beautiful frame-trap, too bad I can't do any IASA stuff with Speed atm. (I'll be trying some out tonight)

That's wrong. The forward version works most of the time. I haven't isolated which does or doesn't. I assume it's because Shulk becomes invincible.

If distance is the trouble, Forwarded Dash Vision helps punish Arcfire because of Dash Vision's superior increased distance when doing the Forward input or without it. Power Vision & regular Vision both have relatively the same distances with or without the Forward input as well.

So I guess you could say that Dash Vision helps in the Robin vs Shulk MU.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

No. It's simply that you get hit with the second part of a multihit move (Arcfire, Arcthunder, Thoron) and are knocked out of the counter after it activates. I've countered all of Robin's multihit projectiles without it being cancelled. My workin hypothesis is that Shulk's leanback animation is fast and occasionally takes him out of range of hit two, then his invul kicks in.

 

[FlareHabanero]

That's wrong. The forward version works most of the time. I haven't isolated which does or doesn't. I assume it's because Shulk becomes invincible.

Regardless of which version used, Vision never worked.

Even when experimenting in practic mode, it would always be cancelled.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Instant vision doesn't seem easy to break. Aerial/default versions are readily dispatched by multihit moves, but if its grounded, Shulks movement seems akin to a teleport/invincibility.

The main qualm I have is Levin is ******** and ArcThunder/Thoron has to be respected. Speed can circumvent/penetrate Arcfires, Shulk also has the mobility and range to out space Robin in melee, but You Can't speed through Arc Thunder from my experience at all. You can't just bait either because you have to respect Robins charges, which means shutting them down so your approach is forced to a fair degree on Robins terms.

To me Shulks grabs all put Robin in the positions he needs him to be in to win this match.
Your aerials are all just conditioning tools to set-up grabs, given Robin has difficulty getting grabs without the aid of ArcFire/thunder.

N-air spaced in Buster should be fine in shield, however if Im not crazy his F-air has equivalent or greater range to our N-air. Which means we should utilize F-air, however F-air doesn't have N-airs shield stun and it has greater lag which seems to cancel out the benefit of the spacing. Again however, these aerials help condition grabs, and if he aims to shield this, you can exploit the shield lag and go from an empty hop into a grab.

Robins Jab is frame 4 and his Grab like our own is frame 7. If you empty hop he doesn't have the frame advantage to counter attack OOS.
Our Jab by comparison is frame 5 and our grab is also frame 7 and I believe our grab range is superior. Nosferatu has longer start-up.
You have to avoid falling into the trap during your approach and otherwise can put Robin into a disadvantageous situation.