The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[FamilyTeam]

I think Mario is fine as he is right now. He has extreme upsides, but he also has his downsides, mostly range and recovery related. Mario's range sometimes makes me cry and it kinda seems people forget his recovery isn't all that exciting. FLUDD is kinda slow to be used to mix up your recoveries and it needs to be fully charged to be atleast kinda useful anyway. Cape kinda hurts your recovery if anything, and his Up B covers an OK distance at best. Without a double jump saved up, it kinda feels like you're going nowhere with just that.

Even then, I think he's still fine.

 

[Cyn]

Guys, please watch it with the flame posts. Flaming will not be tolerated.

 

[Smashifer]

For Mario, he's relatively fine as is. Maybe give a buff to utilt in KB so it isn't as much as a crutch to use at lower percents after a dthrow. But only by a little! Give it slightly enough where it can still combo into itself a few times, but maybe 1 or 2 times less. I'm not saying to touch dthrow! The throw itself is fine. He still has uthrow > dair to use and dthrow > upB.

Other than that, Mr. Video Game is fine as is.

I vote for

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Seeing as people are stating that Cape doesn't help Mario's recovery that much, maybe it shouldn't slow down Mario's air mobility when it's used in the air.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Seeing as people are stating that Cape doesn't help Mario's recovery that much, maybe it shouldn't slow down Mario's air mobility when it's used in the air.

It can only really "help" your recovery if you are guaranteed to make it back. Then, you cape use the cape to turn around and get ready for a Back Air, or use it to stall for a tiny bit.

 

[Jmacz]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with Mario, I always felt like he was one of the most balanced characters on the roster. I say keep him the same.

And once again, I'll cast my vote for because I think he's just a few buffs away from getting the Mewtwo treatment.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Mario. Fine. Probably.

, just as usual.

 

[L9999]

Seeing how Mario is one of the most annoying but balanced character to fight, I think he is fine. I vote .

 

[Zerp]

I think Mario's a great example of what a balanced character should be like, they really did him justice this game.
Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10-5ueuimz3CwF2BSmp3rREUCwH17E-Uj_-LFDeYc4gY/viewanalytics
Here's Lucina's poll http://goo.gl/forms/QcZyLWEZbl
You can vote for these people who may or may not be impersonating Marth as we speak.

I vote for Olimar.

 

[FamilyTeam]

As an avid Lucina player, I have to ask: Why exactly did people vote on her? Do we really have anything new to say about her?
I'll just say what I always say: Making both Marth and Lucina faster would make them a very big threat. I'm currently labbing her, seeing what I can find on my own, and it seriously feels like the lag in their moves is what is holding them back from maybe even being solid High Tiers.
No, I don't want to write an essay as to why I think Lucina can be just as good as Marth.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Personally, I want a buff to Lucina's speed and/or frame data. The general idea of what I want for her is to have a real niche amongst the swordsmen.

The best niche I could think of originates from FE: Awakening. In her game, (from my experience) she is a very strong unit, and her Speed is incredibly high. I don't know how Marth fights in his game, but I do know that her technique is heavily based in her father's, (as seen in their fight in Arena Ferox, and her Shield Break animation in Smash) despite her donning Marth's name while in disguise.

(Btw, "Speed" in Fire Emblem games is not their Movement Speed, but rather how often they can avoid attacks and if they can attack multiple times when they engage an opponent.)

Now, this is all cool and all, but if you were to follow my logic and apply it to other characters, you could justify numerous and game-breaking buffs, just for the sake of being faithful to their original incarnantions. (Bayonetta and Ike come to mind) This leads me to Smash.

Lucina's closest characters, stylistically speaking, are Marth, Roy, and Ike. Marth has the tipper, Roy has the hilt, and Ike has sheer power and weight. Lucina is stuck in the middle somewhere.

This is why I suggest a buff to her speed. (like frame data) It would remain faithful to her origins and it would give her a better niche amongst the swordfighters. Of course, I don't want her to be Melee Marth levels of fast; that would be absurd. But I think frame data improvements to her aerials or tilts would be the most appropriate tweaks in her gameplay, in my opinion.

Man, I hope Sakurai reads this lol.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I honestly think that 's lack of tipper is enough to separate her from Marth, but not by more than half a tier. Even still, I think she still has some flaws that keep her from being a big threat, and so a speed buff like the people above have suggested would be really nice.

Voting , whom I don't think Marth could ever impersonate.

 

[L9999]

Let's talk about the understudy and unappreciated princess, . To start, I'm going to say I don't believe Lucina is "desperate for buffs because she is complete trash" anymore, because instead of following the stupid sheeple that know nothing about the character, I took the liberty of playing her myself. The main problem with Lucina is that sheeple piss on her because the status quo is to piss on her, and a couple of actual flaws. Here is my rant on Lucina.
Lucina walk acceleration (0→0.5), air speed (1.02 → 1.04). With a better walk acceleration, Lucina could avoid running altogether and take advantage of her good walking speed and tilts to do her stuff, and it adds to her other mobility tricks like PP and foxtrot. Better air speed alleviates horizontal recovery a bit and helps her with stringing aerials or chasing down opponents. Dancing Blade having more air stall. Timings adjusted to prevent SDs from DB2 off-stage. Now, why DB air stalling? Because it makes her recovery less predictable. Side B mixup potential is not as helpful as it was in previous Smash games, so why not improving it? Lucina will still have a gimpable recovery, but at least have more options. Now, Dolphin Slash. If this thing had a hitbox that matched the animation it would be so much better. Dash Attack. This thing is so garbage it cannot punish laggy moves in time, and it is punishable too! This insult of a move should be fixed to be on line with other dash attacks. With faster startup it can be a burst punish move, and with less endlag to be less punishable. Down Tilt: decreased ending lag (IASA frame 24 → 22), lasts 3 frames instead of 2. Being her main poking tool, I think it is appropiate to improve it further. And as a extra thing, make Dtilt like Brawl Marth Dtilt in which it could move Marth foward like a crawl. For her Up Smash, I would love to ser slightly less end lag. It is not as strong as Side Smash, yet is more punishable and situational? And Down Smash...this thing sucks and I only use it on accident. Since it is so laggy and punishable I think a couple more kill power would suffice. And now, her aerials. I don't think they should autocancel for free, like Cloud, but making the autocancels less tight would be a step in the right direction. And Dair. Make the sweetspot last longer. It is super hard to land and risky as it is now. Grab game. No braindead combo throws here. Lucina doesn't need that. What she needs is a bigger grab and more damage on her pummel and position throws. And this is all I can say. I don't want her sped up so she can be Cloud's lost cousin but enough so she can play the way she does but better.

As an avid Lucina player, I have to ask: Why exactly did people vote on her? Do we really have anything new to say about her?
I'll just say what I always say: Making both Marth and Lucina faster would make them a very big threat. I'm currently labbing her, seeing what I can find on my own, and it seriously feels like the lag in their moves is what is holding them back from maybe even being solid High Tiers.
No, I don't want to write an essay as to why I think Lucina can be just as good as Marth.

Because people want to see what's the opinion on Lucina.

 

[Zerp]

Let's talk about the understudy and unappreciated princess, . To start, I'm going to say I don't believe Lucina is "desperate for buffs because she is complete trash" anymore, because instead of following the stupid sheeple that know nothing about the character, I took the liberty of playing her myself. The main problem with Lucina is that sheeple piss on her because the status quo is to piss on her, and a couple of actual flaws. Here is my rant on Lucina.

I get what your saying, but the stupid sheeple thing is a little bit insulting, please tone the language down a little bit next time, thanks.

Also, that rant of yours is very well written, it explains things very well. Seriously, your longer posts are always a pleasure to read.

Personally, I think Lucina's pretty good, solidly upper mid tier, not exactly sure why many people think she's low and some even bottom tier, never quite understood that, I wouldn't say she's as good as Marth is in most scenarios but that doesn't mean she's bad or anything.
Here's Lucina's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_0nHS8cZIYgwPdxOtd3qMmIighyarVmUFjk0udSCicQ/viewanalytics
Lots of diversity for how people think she should be treated.
Here's Zero Suit Samus's poll http://goo.gl/forms/Gkgzpy4uwG

You can vote for these people who definitely don't wear Zero Suits, well, except for Wario...

I vote for Olimar.
Edit: Removed ZSS, thanks for pointing that out L1N3R1D3R, seriously, without you the voting would be a mess, I'm way too forgetful, my bad.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I get what your saying, but the stupid sheeple thing is a little bit insulting, please tone the language down a little bit next time, thanks.

It's still nothing compared to some of us Lucina mains have to hear about ourselves or our character.

Anyway, ZSS. Honestly, after the nerfs, I think she is a perfect character. Please, stop changing her before we go too far.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Frankly, I feel that Zero Suit Samus should've been made lighter than Rosalina at this point. Other than that, not much else to say.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is still in the list of characters you can vote for, by the way.

Anyway, she's now a solid character that isn't overwhelming, still having most of her strengths that made her a good competitor. The only big thing she lost was the ridiculous death combos that made her so amazing, though up-air to up-B still connects, does a lot of damage, and can occasionally kill, so it's still quite good.

EDIT: See a few posts down for the one nerf I would suggest.

Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm on the fence about Zero Suit. One part of me thinks she wasn't nerfed enough, the other thinks that she's acceptable. I think if they weakened Boost Kick more, she'd be better off.

Voting Ike.

 

[L9999]

I get what your saying, but the stupid sheeple thing is a little bit insulting, please tone the language down a little bit next time, thanks.

Also, that rant of yours is very well written, it explains things very well. Seriously, your longer posts are always a pleasure to read.

Personally, I think Lucina's pretty good, solidly upper mid tier, not exactly sure why many people think she's low and some even bottom tier, never quite understood that, I wouldn't say she's as good as Marth is in most scenarios but that doesn't mean she's bad or anything.

Yeah, sorry about that, like I said the status quo is to piss on Lucina, and I get annoyed, and I was once guilty of it (sorry FamilyTeam ).

Regarding ZSS, I don't think she should see further changes.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yeah, sorry about that, like I said the status quo is to piss on Lucina, and I get annoyed, and I was once guilty of it (sorry FamilyTeam ).

Regarding ZSS, I don't think she should see further changes.

It'd be cool if us Lucina mains could just catch a break, for once.
It's not like our reps help with Lucina's representation.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'm gonna say it right now, if any part of ZSS still needs nerfing, it's Flip Kick (down B). At the moment it's probably her best move, being amazing at recovering, escaping situations, and ending combos with a quick, strong hitbox. Maybe slightly decrease movement speed so it can still recover and escape situations almost as well but isn't nearly as fast to land a hit with.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I think Zero Suit Samus is still very strong overall, and could use a slight nerf, she's not overly oppressive but she's just a bit too powerful, along with the other current Top Tiers imo.
Here's her results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1gkovNaz5vCynTX_AHm0TV8PP8oJW6nUeKkXzp8hzuqE/viewanalytics
Here's Olimar's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/grkyL9RoOc
You can vote for these people who may or may not have ate an hoard of Pik Pik Carrots they weren't supposed to and got into a giant debt.

 

[Smashifer]

Olimar is actually pretty underrated character. He's not amazing mind you, but he certainly can get the job done if the player puts in the effort with him.

I can't really think of any buffs he could use however, as I rarely see the character. He most certainly shouldn't be nerfed.

I vote

 

[Eugene Wang]

He's okay. But I'd suggest a redesign of his moveset for Smash 5 so he's not as dependent on Pikmin. I've seen too many times a player whiffed an otherwise on-point move just because a pikmin didn't get to Olimar fast enough.

Voting

 

[Green Zelda]

He's okay. But I'd suggest a redesign of his moveset for Smash 5 so he's not as dependent on Pikmin. I've seen too many times a player whiffed an otherwise on-point move just because a pikmin didn't get to Olimar fast enough.

Voting

Whoa, that happens on the Wii U? Thought it was only a 3DS problem.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've seen Olimar's attacks whiff, all because his Pikmin aren't always responsive. Enabling the Pikmin to always keep up with Olimar could help him out.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I know almost nothing about because me and the person I always battle never play as and in fact (irrationally) hate him, so I'll refrain from this discussion.

Voting .

 

[Deleted member]

Voting as well.

A buff to Olimar's air speed would be nice, but otherwise I find him a well balanced character.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, i think Olimar should be allowed to use 100 Pikmin per match, it's canon and it would be pretty great for balance, don't cha all think so too?
...
I kid, I kid, I think Olimar's pretty good, I'm not even sure he needs a buff, if he does it ought to be a small one.
Here's his results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1fTsPSBD5fxRHCpfeCf72XtljfNgWyEn9gzv6uBWf_9Y/viewanalytics
Here's Palutena's poll http://goo.gl/forms/e75F3TrWuy

You can vote for these people who are almost all certainly not divine.

 

[Smashifer]

Ah, Palutena... a character I was so hyped for when her reveal came since she's my favorite character from Uprising, and of all characters she was the subject of "trash without extra influence (customs) and god-like with" (ehe, see what I did there?). In fact, I'm upset that there was that mindset at all.

Speed up her ground game and she'll instantly be mid-tier, maybe even high. I'm talking her tilts, and smashes, give dash attack less endlag (maybe). There's no reason for that dsmash to have that much endlag when Ganon's usmash has less endlag for a move that's just as powerful.

I dunno, admittedly I'm still salty that they messed up such a character that had so much potential. I'm probably just spouting garbage, but here I am anyways.

Oh, um, I vote for
Less keep the Icarus train rolling, eh?

 

[Dinoman96]

In my eyes, the only buff Palutena needs is let her use her custom specials.

 

[Rhinomaster22]

Honestly, all Palutena needs is access to customs or frame data buffs on her tilts and maybe one of her smashes to make her a good character.
Voting cause their virtually the same except for specials.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Honestly, could be a very solid character if one aspect of hers was buffed: end lag. Right now the end lag of Autoreticle and all her grounded options are a bit too high. Decreasing them all by about three frames would greatly improve her in general on the ground and approaching. Oh, and increase the KBG of counter for goddess' sake.

Voting .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There aren't a lot of attacks that can deal over 40% damage without customizations, so Palutena will often have a hard time making a 1-hit KO (KOing fighters at 0% damage) with her Counter. Shame too, since the counterattack is quicker than that of Shulk's Vision, and is less likely to whiff than Little Mac's Slip Counter as well.

 

[Eugene Wang]

I have no idea what Namco was thinking when they stuck piles of endlag on Palutena. Will they cut some off already?

 

[L9999]

This character works with no customs? She can. She does and further improvements would make this character kinda silly, but here we go.


Number 1. Those stinky specials

Autoreticle- Make this thing lock on target instead of shooting just because. Next reduce the overall lag on the move. Reflect-make the wall stay solid for longer to have improved use, alongside with some overall lag decrease. Warp-make it have less endlag considering how it does nothing else. Counter-Make this thing kill!

Number 2- That stinky frame data

Shave off endlag in all of Palutena's tilts. Make Side Tilt a multihit move, so the animation can be worth something and make the final hitbox stronger to fit. Down Tilt having increased range so it can hit opponents at the ledge.

Number 3- Those misleading smashes

Side Smash and Down Smash both having less endlag so they aren't a completely free punish, and both having hitbox increases so the whole wings are hitboxes. Side Smash's windbox stronger as the animation would suggest.

Number 4- Aerial tweaks

Make Nair tumble opponents. Dair having bigger range and being much stronger. Dair is pathetic right now.

All this would greatly expand Palutena's options and make her turtling even stronger. She would have a working and annoying projectile, a literal way to wall out people and gimp, improved movement with warp, a counter that actually kills, having an actual ground game that isn't completely and freely punished, and tweaks to her most disfunctional aerials. All of this with no customs as everyone preaches.

As for who I vote, I vote , and trust me that I have a LOT to say about this disaster of game design.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I think Palutena's one of the better low tier characters, she needs help, but not nearly as much as characters like Dedede, Jigglypuff or Zelda do, I think she could do with some large buffs though, what I say might not necessarily be accurate, as far as characters go she's one of my blind spots, so take what I say about her with like a thousand pounds of salt instead of just a grain.

Here's her results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1aoldqy67t8836uIfMvscVuITXwHHKlBYboTroV2jsTw/viewanalytics
Here's Pit's poll http://goo.gl/forms/LV1NqlyFjj

You can vote for these people who are not known to have ever screamed "HIYAYAYAYAYAYA!".

I suppose I'll vote for

 

[Jmacz]

Pit is another one of those characters like Mario that I think are already really well balanced, I can't think of anything I would change for the better. Maybe a little more air speed? He is rather floaty.

And once again I will vote for

 

[LancerStaff]

Mm, Pit's a character I know well. He's a very well designed character, and as such would be difficult to buff without potentially breaking. Even something as small as an airspeed buff would have major effects in all gamestates... Taking some frames off of certain moves or buffing the killing or combo power of others could create workable kill confirms, removing what's basically his only weakness. I can think of countless minor quality of life buffs, yeah. But it's hard to think of something worthwhile that wouldn't potentially snowball into something much larger due to how tight his moveset is. By the same token you really can't nerf anything either.

Not going to vote on the next character because I just wanted to say a few things about Pit while he was the main topic. Though, you guys probably don't need to do Dark Pit separately.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is currently the most all-around character, but that doesn't mean he's mediocre. Indeed, he's a very strong character who's getting plenty of representation, especially Earth. He could use with a tiny buff in air speed to allow better combos and recovery, but nothing big.

Voting .