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The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

MarioMeteor

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Dr. Mario could've been a very good character if they weren't so lazy with him. He should be around Luigi's speed on the ground and Mii Gunner's in the air. Some of his attacks, like The Fist and drill kick need to be faster, and his recovery needs a major buff.

Voting Lucario.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4drmario: needs some changes to be a truly viable character. Most notably, his up air should have more hit stun to allow for more true combos, his down B should go a bit farther and stall more, he should have a move that spikes (Dair?), and he needs to be heavier to make up for his lower mobility.

Voting :4pacman:.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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This post won't have much to do with balancing Dr. Mario, rather, it will be focused on making him be viewed as more than "another Mario".
  • Dr. Mario should be heavier, allowing him to survive longer.
  • Dr. Mario should have a new Dash Attack. It would be the...um...Face Slide from Super Mario Sunshine. Dr. Mario will roll at the end of the move to keep mobility. (Yes i know this was stolen from Brawl Minus, but it's still a good idea.)
  • Dr. Mario's Forward Aerial should have him attack with the Super Sheet. (Or leave it alone if he doesn't need this change.)
  • Dr. Mario's Down Aerial should have him smack down opponents with his clipboard. (can meteor smash.)
  • Dr. Mario should have a new Side Special. He opens a bottle, releasing a Red, Blue, or Yellow Virus. The Viruses don't go much farther than the range of the Super Sheet, but each Virus has a different effect. The Red Virus inflicts damage over time, the Yellow Virus paralyzes opponents for a short time, and the Blue Virus can Freeze opponents at high percents, and deals the most damage and knockback. The Viruses go in order from Red, Yellow, and Blue, so both you and your opponent know what's coming.
Also, Dr. Tornado needs a higher vertical recovery, and needs less lag, and the Forward Smash needs more range.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Dr. Mario is Mario, so it would be quite silly to have him weigh more than Mario. I will say though, that his recovery needs to be worked on, because when you send Dr. Mario flying far enough, even with a mid-air jump and Super Jump Punch, he can end up falling short of reaching a stage ledge. Sure, Dr. Mario's recovery is not as awful as Little Mac's, but it's kind of up there in the poor recovery department right now.

Maybe increase Dr. Mario's mobility attributes so that they're 87% the strength of Mario's mobility.

Walk Speed: 1.1 * 0.87 = 0.957
Run Speed: 1.6 * 0.87 = 1.392
Air Speed: 1.15 * 0.87 = 1.0005

Dr. Mario would finally run faster than Dedede, and the air speed increase could help make his recovery feel less poor. Of course, Super Jump Punch would still need to have its travel distance improved.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Dr. Mario is Mario, so it would be quite silly to have him weigh more than Mario. I will say though, that his recovery needs to be worked on, because when you send Dr. Mario flying far enough, even with a mid-air jump and Super Jump Punch, he can end up falling short of reaching a stage ledge. Sure, Dr. Mario's recovery is not as awful as Little Mac's, but it's kind of up there in the poor recovery department right now.

Maybe increase Dr. Mario's mobility attributes so that they're 87% the strength of Mario's mobility.

Walk Speed: 1.1 * 0.87 = 0.957
Run Speed: 1.6 * 0.87 = 1.392
Air Speed: 1.15 * 0.87 = 1.0005

Dr. Mario would finally run faster than Dedede, and the air speed increase could help make his recovery feel less poor. Of course, Super Jump Punch would still need to have its travel distance improved.
Well...If they can say that Dr. Mario is slower than Mario because it is a version of Mario that doesn't save the princess all the time (therefore getting a lot less exorcise), it isn't that much more of a stretch for giving the same reason for being heavier. Not too much heavier, but just enough to make a difference.
 

Eugene Wang

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Long story short, Dr. Mario exemplifies the importance of mobility in Smash 4. Just tweak the multipliers, and perhaps give doc tornado some more horizontal distance, and he'll be fine.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Oh Dr. Mario how he when from a slotwarmer to an underdog.

Doc is by far my favorite character to play, mainly due to his Pills, Dr. Tornado, escape options & damage output making him my go to main, no matter what happens to him or what people think, I'll stick with him as long as I continue to play this game.

As for buffs, well I've made a long list from over the last 10 months of things I would love to see happen to him, so instead of posting it here taking up space on this thread, I'll post a link to it here.


I say it would be overkill if all of these changes were to apply to him, but at least the top tier would have some competition.
 

Eight_SixtyFour

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Higher full hop and second jump height
Higher Up-B Distance
Faster dash speed
Less endlag on Neutral B

:4drmario: is decent, and he doesn't need much else. His toolkit is pretty good, but his mobility holds him back.

Voting :4falco:.
 

Wintermelon43

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Are the character voting things still open? I keep getting to busy to vote on the only few characters I REALLY want to vote on, I missed Kirby, Dedede, and Jigglypuff, and those are the three I wanted to vote on the google thing the most :(
 

MistressRemilia

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Huuuh like, Doc's pretty decent but not quite good enough yet.
I'm starting to get what they're trying to do with Doc as a character, but he's lacking some things to be up to Mario's viability;
So i'm going to make a list of buffs that would be nice:

Weight: 98 -> 105
Running Speed: 1.312 -> 1.475
Air Speed: 0.943 -> 1
Pills: 4.48-5.8% -> 5.6-7% , FAF 53 -> 40.
Neutralair: 5.6-8.96% -> 6.8-10.33%
UpAir: 7.84% -> 8.94%
FTilt & DTilt: 5.6-7.84% -> 6.6-8.84% for UpTilt. and 7.84% -> 9.34% for Ftilt.
UpB & BackThrow: Knockback increased for both moves, 45 -> 30 Degree Angle for BackThrow.
DownAir: Some kind of angle change to make it combo into UpB or Fair, it can stay laggy since it has always been a mixup.

Doc has been designed like a slow Mario with more powerful moves, it's been executed decently, but it could have been done better. The suggested changes would turn Doc into the powerhouse they would have designed if he wasn't a last minute Clone. Doc's strength, while good, may not be good enough to be completely viable. I attempted to keep that design of his while making him a bit more mobile because nerfs were kind of unfair. Damage increase on various moves either allow for stronger mixups from Doc or more true combos on an already strong character. Neutral Game doesn't have to be perfect, but a better harassing tool to those with disjoints via better pills is appreciated.
" Why no recovery buffs? "
ITS A PART OF DOC'S DESIGN SINCE MELEE, ITS AS DUMB AS MEWTWO WEIGHT INCREASES, DEAL WITH IT n_n
 
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Zerp

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EDIT: ...can they actually increase a character's jump height in balance patches?
They haven't to my knowledge, so it's probably pretty unlikely, but if your asking whether or not it's possible, then yeah, they can definitely do that, basically anything can be added or changed via patches.

Are the character voting things still open? I keep getting to busy to vote on the only few characters I REALLY want to vote on, I missed Kirby, Dedede, and Jigglypuff, and those are the three I wanted to vote on the google thing the most :(
Sorry to hear that, but no, they are not still open. Your still welcome to discuss them at anytime though.


Anyways, here's Dr. Mario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17RTMiSVdLxn9NNUdR5L-TYgnFuk1Tg_pcLOATLixT3Y/viewanalytics

Also, here's Little Mac's poll http://goo.gl/forms/gqVw8crswh

And finally here's the gentlemen and gentlewomen you can vote for. :4bayonetta::4bowser::4bowserjr::4falcon::4charizard::4cloud::4corrin::4darkpit::4diddy::4dk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4falco::4fox::4ganondorf::4myfriends::4link::4lucario::4lucas::4lucina::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4gaw::4ness::4olimar::4pacman::4palutena::4peach::4pikachu::4pit::4robinm::rosalina::4ryu::4sheik::4shulk::4sonic::4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi::4zelda::4zss::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4littlemac:...why did he get nerfed again? His aerial side B should be reverted to its distance before 1.0.4, and his aerials (besides neutral and down) should be a bit less laggy so that they're at least worth considering. Also, if he's supposed to be amazing on the ground, why is his grab game so bad?

Still voting :4pacman:.
 

Yoshister

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Little Mac needs a decent grab game. He's a boxer, shouldn't they at least be good combo starters or highly damaging?

Also, Little Mac should be able to recover from a reasonable distance (Vanilla Smash 4).

I have been gimped at 14% by a Cloud.

That should not happen.



I vote Ness.
 
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MistressRemilia

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Mac is so extreme it's hard to make him good.
By design, he can't deal with some strategies used by some characters or by everyone given the stage.
Much like Kirby, it's a big challenge to make him good w/out taking away traits that were planned.

I vote Falco.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Little Mac was designed to be powerful on the ground, while being awful in the air. As such, it does make sense to make his recovery terrible (arguably the worst of any fighter) to further prove that statement. Of course, this can result in early TKOs if you're too careless.
 

Eugene Wang

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Yes, I understand Little Mac shouldn't be in the air, but his high landing lag is overkill. Cut some landing lag on his aerials so he can swat away jugglers and reestablish his grounding more easily.
 
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MarioMeteor

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There really aren't too many ways to buff the strongest ground fighter in the game without breaking him. If they buff his air game, they'd have to nerf his ground game. Maybe do something like improve his grab game, but take the armor off his smash attacks? I don't know, the extent of my Little Mac knowledge boils down to "back throw, F.L.U.D.D., on to the next one."

Voting Lucario.
 

Zerp

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MarioMeteor

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What they did with Falco in the recent patches was definitely a step in the right direction. I actually feel that Falco might be good now. The only other things I'd do for him are to make his down air faster, and to buff his run and air speed.

Voting Lucario.
 

Green Zelda

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Falco is sooo close to being a threatening character. He has the combos. He has the throws. He just needs a good neutral. Why can't they just give him back his old laser? :(
An airspeed buff would also be nice.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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This would be nice, but wouldnt't they have to weaken the spike hitbox, in order to balance it?
I more meant give the attack less startup lag, and make the timing of the meteor smash hitbox a bit smaller, so that if you use it too late, it'll just send opponents flying sideways instead of downwards.
 

zzmorg82

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Yeah, the bird has all the tools needed already to be sufficent; a slight speed buff would go a long way.
 

MarioMeteor

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This would be nice, but wouldnt't they have to weaken the spike hitbox, in order to balance it?
The spike is already pitifully weak, to the point where it won't even guaranteed a KO offstage at 60%. It's unbalanced right now, making it faster would actually be balancing it.

Oh yeah, I also forgot about his lasers. That's how often I use them. Make those faster.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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So. Every Starfox character has a laser. Fox's are for damage racking, Wolf's did a considerable amount of damage, and Falco's...do nothing. I think they need to be a bit faster, have a bit more hitstun, and have a bit less end lag. I don't know much else about Falco, so these are my only thoughts for today.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4falco: is in a similar situation with Kirby, as his buffs have helped his combo and killing game, but they don't matter much when his neutral game is still bad. To fix Falco, they would need to improve his Dair, make his Laser less laggy, and give him the Mewtwo treatment (noticeably increase overall speed). He might actually be a threat with those simple changes.


Voting for the Man of Pac.
 
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Eugene Wang

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He prefers the air? Show it, please!
  • Change the sourspots of Down Air and Phantasm to moderately weak spikes so they function better as edgeguarding moves.
  • Let his laser autocancel into itself faster in the air.
  • Give Reflector a 100% chance to trip on contact.
  • Change his air speed to 1.05. This pushes his air speed from the bottom to middle-of-the-pack.
  • Extend the active frames of Bair's sweetspot.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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He prefers the air? Show it, please!
  • Change the sourspots of Down Air and Phantasm to moderately weak spikes so they function better as edgeguarding moves.
  • Let his laser autocancel into itself faster in the air.
  • Give Reflector a 100% chance to trip on contact.
  • Change his air speed to match his walk speed.
  • Extend the active frames of Bair's sweetspot.
You do realize that Falco's walk speed is tied with Yoshi's air speed, right?
 

MarioMeteor

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That's what you call "pitifully weak"? 60% is pretty average for a spike to guarantee kills offstage.
:162:
Most spikes in the game kill before that. Falco's down air won't kill that late fresh on a middleweight. It'll kill long after that on someone heavier.
 
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Wintermelon43

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Falco's laser should be faster, and his frame data should be better too on some moves. Being a little bit faster would be cool too.
 

Zerp

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I find Falco to be borderline low tier but, at the same time, I'm somewhat hesitant to buff him, last thing I want is another Brawl Falco. I think giving him moderate all-around speed buffs and a few weak damage buffs would do the trick, but I'd be cautious about it if I were Mr. Sakurai.

Here's Falco's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1oi5mZYYEb0_Ltv4wiBW2HpdQsuijzuaS_GpgTrXtlO4/viewanalytics
Lot'sa different opinions on this one.

Here's Pac-Man's poll for today http://goo.gl/forms/QeWLj1h38n

And finally here's the fine individuals you can nominate: :4bayonetta::4bowser::4bowserjr::4falcon::4charizard::4cloud::4corrin::4darkpit::4diddy::4dk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4fox::4ganondorf::4myfriends::4link::4lucario::4lucas::4lucina::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4gaw::4ness::4olimar::4palutena::4peach::4pikachu::4pit::4robinm::rosalina::4ryu::4sheik::4shulk::4sonic::4villagerf::4wario::4wiifit::4yoshi::4zelda::4zss::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:

I'll vote for :4cloud:
 

Furret24

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Most spikes in the game kill before that. Falco's down air won't kill that late fresh on a middleweight. It'll kill long after that on someone heavier.
Not really. That's about when the spikes on Yoshi's fair, G&W's dair, Luigi’s dair, Lucas' bair kill. These are just a few examples too.



About Pac-Man, I think he's in an okay spot right now, but there are a few things that could really help him out.

Making his grab not garbage would be a great start. In particular, making it not so laggy, fixing it's deadspots, making it's hitboxes consistent, and maybe making the grabboxes extend the entire beam. Improving his mediocre throws would also do him good, but it's not as big of a issue.

A general buff in power and speed on his smashes would be nice too. They're all really laggy, while also being rather weak (excluding fsmash, which is surprisingly strong).

A little thing that's not really necessary, but I think dair's last hit should spike. The animation makes it look like it should, yet it doesn’t.

Voting for :4gaw:
:162:
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Hooray, :4pacman: finally got picked! I think he's a great character ATM, but he could do with a few buffs:
~Fix his grab. Please. It's laggy and inconsistent, and it's not like his throws are amazing.
~Make side B not bounce you stupidly far away if you hit the ledge incorrectly.
~Make all smashes slightly quicker and, besides F-smash, slightly more powerful. They're way too lackluster at the moment.
~Not necessary, but would like: speed up Bonus Fruit charging, give D-air a weak spike.

Voting for :4mewtwo:.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Grabbing someone with PAC-MAN is not easy if you don't paralyze your opponent with the Bell. Of course, by the time the paralysis can last long enough for you to make the grab, you could easily make a KO with a smash attack instead.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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I guess I could put frame data changes to match with the changes I want from now on. For Pac-Man:

Grab: active frames 12-14,22-24,32-39 --> 10-37; FAF 76 --> 66 (link all hitboxes, -2f startup, -8f endlag)
Side B: probably some bug with "hitting" both the floor and the wall that doubles the bounce back distance (couldn't find anything about it on Kuro)
Smashes:
F-smash: active frame 18-20,21-28(late) --> 16-18,19-26 || FAF 53 --> 50 || KBG 99,102 --> 101,104
U-smash: active frame 13,16-18,19-26 --> 11, 14-16,18-24 || FAF 50 --> 47 || KBG 97,92 --> 103,98
D-smash: active frame 18-20,21-28 --> 16-18,19-26 || FAF 55 --> 52 || KBG 86,92 --> 92,98
(every smash -2f startup & -1f endlag; F-smash KBG +2, U- and D-smashes KBG +6)
Bonus Fruit: speed up each "upgrade" by ~2 frames
D-air hit 4: angle 65 --> 270; (EDIT:) BKB 80 --> 20; KBG 90 --> 75 (make it like Kirby's, but a tad bit more powerful to make up for being a tad bit laggier and more inconsistent)
 
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Furret24

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D-air: Hit 4 angle 65 --> 270, BKB 80 --> 20, KBG 90 --> 110 (make it like Kirby's)
I think it's worth mentioning that damage is related to knockback. You made the last hit of Pac-Man's Dair have the same KBK and KBG as the last of Kirby’s, but the last hit of Pac-Man's dair does 6%, while Kirby’s does 2%. This causes Pac-Man's dair to be significantly stronger than Kirby’s (for specifics, Pac-Man's would do about as much knockback at 40% as Kirby’s would at 90%). In other words, it would be nothing like Kirby's Dair, in terms of power anyway, which I assume you were trying to do.


Here's a knockback calculator, enjoy.
:162:
 
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