The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Conviction]

I've seen people advocate for banning Brinstar but Frigate??

I think I'll go on a walk now...

 

[BSP]

I'm with DMG. Delfino's got more CPish qualities than Siege imo. I wouldn't put Delfino in a starter list.

 

[MegaRobMan]

NEITHER OF THEM ARE STARTERS, READ

/CAPs.

 

[WindMajor]

The hazards in Frigate literally siren at all players with abnoxious flashing lights and camera movement well before any changes occur.

The lack of a ledge would be the perfect example of a counterpick quality in a stage, where players pick a stage they can excel at and/or their opponent will not do as well on.

Even if it's random, it's more than reasonable to expect players to adapt to the change in surroundings. Same goes for stages like PS1.

 

[MegaRobMan]

I won this, btw

LOOK HOW BADLY THE STAGE INTERFERES WITH THE MATCH!!!!!!!! (first stock is my bad, I missed the wall jump or thought I could).

No, it's a terrible stage, even if I beat a D3 (+3 matchup for that) on that stage, because of how stupid the stage is, mind you, it doesn't mean I should feel good about winning, I only won because the stupid stage is stupid and I'm a scrub for winning on a scrub stage.

idk, maybe Nebraska is just full of Melee players who want to play on legit stages instead of losing because of a counter pick instead of out playing someone, but NO ONE in my state would ever come to a tournament if I ran unity because of the stages.

Edit:4:28 or so if I had known where we were gonna go to, I could have baired or faired him to death, WHY ARE WE SO HIGH IN THE SKY, this stage is baaahaaad. But I will take every D3 there.

Also the music is godly.

 

[Player-1]

^^^^way to read my post.

 

[DMG]

NEITHER OF THEM ARE STARTERS, READ

/CAPs.

Ok, now go read my post. You said neither stage was fit to be a starter, but that you would prefer to use Delfino over CS if it came down to that. I disagreed and said between the two stages, CS is much more neutral or more fit to be a starter. There's more to "hate" on Delfino than on CS, hands down no contest. Which would make your statement odd.

 

[MegaRobMan]

I main Wolf (air speed, spike), I'm a former All American Swimmer and water is my life element. It's not that odd. Unban Pirateship and Make Delfino a starter.

And think about making Summit mandatory as the 5th game of grand finals stage.

Yeah, P1, like I said, we'd probably be bff's IRL.

 

[DMG]

Sounds great

I play broken characters on Summit, enjoy the fish

 

[MegaRobMan]

Sometimes I allow my trolling to snowball into things so people start forgetting the point.

Including myself.

Point is, the stage list is bad and I can't run it in Nebraska.

 

[DMG]

You can run whatever stage list. I'm fine with shrinking down to 3/5/7 stages for Brawl if people want to do that. Some stages aren't so mind numbingly bad and you'd get rid of some of them by doing this, but that's the cost you pay to play on fewer stages.

 

[Player-1]

I main Wolf (air speed, spike), I'm a former All American Swimmer and water is my life element. It's not that odd. Unban Pirateship and Make Delfino a starter.

And think about making Summit mandatory as the 5th game of grand finals stage.

Yeah, P1, like I said, we'd probably be bff's IRL.

no you ninja'd me, supposed to be directed at twinkie

 

[BSP]

I'm starting to like Delfino less and less the more I play on it tbh. It detracts from "Standard" gameplay a lot imo. I already know there's really no "Standard", but it messes with a lot of the fundamentals (i.e. edgeguarding, no walkoffs or walls, water, etc.) if you ask me

If you're flying between stations, you can be sharked, which isn't present on many legal stages

Most of the stations have water, which messes with the usual edgeguarding situations by giving a safe option towards the bottom of the screen (safe compared to death at least)

A lot of stations have walls, so you can get locked. It's temporary yes, but still, walls are pretty plentiful here

A lot of stations have walkoffs too, which mess with usual edgeguarding as well

IDK, it's just got a lot of factors that deviate from what I would consider standard play. None of them are broken....buuuuut I'm just starting to like them less and less. I guess it's just how I see the game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

inb4 lrn2delfino

Seriosuly though, is very unique, and that doesn't make it any bad.
Maybe unlikeable.

Same with PS1, Siege or whatever stage you want to name.



And if you think the fish is the reason Summit is banned, you should not be allowed to talk about stages.

 

[MegaRobMan]

So I can just run unity and make up my own stage list?

I CAN'T run any stagelist if I'm trying to run unity, I'm pretty sure of that. (Maybe for doubles?????)

I personally hate standing infinites, but that doesn't cause a problem for my scene in general, I can live with losing to Tyser because I get ledge infinited 3 times. My fault for getting grabbed I suppose.

I can't run a tournament if no one will show up because the stages are dumb. Even if it's for a dollar.

And Kyo, I think he mains Wario and he would circle camp super hard and force the fish out of hiding and come after the person chasing him.

 

[BSP]

inb4 lrn2delfino

Seriosuly though, is very unique, and that doesn't make it any bad.
Maybe unlikeable.

Same with PS1, Siege or whatever stage you want to name.

Yeah, I can't say it makes the game "bad", but I can say it turns the game in another direction, which I don't like that much.

I see PS1 as more manageable than Delfino. Same with Siege. Seriously, Delfino's got water/walls/walkoffs on pretty much every transformation.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

...
...
...

REALLY?

Reducing the already small stagelist even more?

When Olimar and Ice Climbers are super strong, you all better not complain.

 

[Tesh]

@ whoever mentioned maharba vs illmatic, that really has nothing to do with stages being "janky" or w/e as he could have done the exact same thing with japanese stagelist. Hell it would have been much worse on Smashville or Battlefield for sure.

If you are willing to play a certain way, you can make any stage feel like its a horrible place to compete.

 

[ShermantheTank]

Why are people so against a MELEE type of stage list, meaning NO HARD COUNTERPICKS. They did away with Pokefloats and more recently Brinstar. EXCELLENT JOB. They ALSO have a different stage list for doubles and singles, and it isn't just because FOD is laggy with teams. Having DK64 as a legal stage makes excellent sense for doubles, not singles imho.

Castlesiege is not a neutral, some of you must have been realllllllllllly stretching to find that 7th neutral to go along with PS1 as a starter. Delfino is a better answer, buuuuuuutttttttttttttttt it's not a starter and neither is Castle siege (or PS1 in brawl).

Brinstar and Frigate have got to go.

Because brawl kids are scrubs and want free wins.

Because they were smoking something wacky when they made the rules.

Agreed.

idk, maybe Nebraska is just full of Melee players who want to play on legit stages instead of losing because of a counter pick instead of out playing someone, but NO ONE in my state would ever come to a tournament if I ran unity because of the stages.

Also the music is godly.

Both of these are equally true.

Thank you for banning MetaKnight. Even though I main him, thank you!

 

[DRDN]

This is what I was talking about anything that's different is bad to most people in this conversation.

You said the water is a safer option then dieing I agree what's wrong with adding a safer option (again Tinks dair no longer is instant death) especially when you see someone taking that safe option their sitting ducks for a second.

And Counter Picks are just that something to help you even out or even give you an advantage against an opponent who just beat you. I could understand your guys logic if the winner chose the next stage but I feel more CPs would help even out the tier list by giving people the chance to play on a stage where their biggest faults aren't so big anymore



I do agree that dubs and singles should have 2 different stage lists.


MRM how can you say you couldn't run unity didn't you just run a bunch of weird rulesets?

 

[-LzR-]

Let's bring the FD card here. To people who support banning Frigate: FD will have to go first, it's way worse. Thank you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm a Diddy main so the first part is bad for me, sometimes I'll be playing a match and it'd just have stayed on the first part for 2 minutes then switch to the 2nd stage...10 seconds later it switches back randomly and it's like that for another 2 minutes and I'm just like "...wel ****"

The first part isn't "bad" for Diddy, its just not as good as the second.

The first part isn't bad for anyone that I can think of.

Bad is something like G&W on FD, or Diddy Kong on Brinstar (name-search Jebus). Not good =/= bad

 

[Player-1]

The first part is definitely bad for Diddy. It's not THAT bad, but it's still definitely bad, but only for the aspect that any time he has to recover it's pretty much a guaranteed a hard punish.

 

[-LzR-]

Or you could you know, be more in the left part of the stage. You are Diddy, you can force your opponent to be in the left part too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Basically what -LzR- said. Only bad characters can complain about being forced to a certain part of the stage with any frequency, and EVERYONE (with a few exceptions) gets punished for recovering on the right hand-side, Diddy isn't special.

 

[-LzR-]

G&W is bad and he can't force people anywhere. He also gets punished when recovering from the right sad. G&W is bad and even he can still manage just fine.

 

[DRDN]

P1 wall cling then when you go up you can bair uair or up b for mix ups

 

[Player-1]

Or you could you know, be more in the left part of the stage. You are Diddy, you can force your opponent to be in the left part too.

So can other characters.

P1 wall cling then when you go up you can bair uair or up b for mix ups

I know the mixups lmao, I use more stage knowledge and tricks than any other diddy by a large margin so trust me I know the tricks. You still get punished if the opponent is good, it's not too hard to see coming

 

[DRDN]

You get punished for anything on anystage if your opponent is smart enough including FD so why should this make frigate bannable

And zinotos a better diddy

 

[MegaRobMan]

Because brawl kids are scrubs and want free wins.

Because they were smoking something wacky when they made the rules.

Agreed.

Both of these are equally true.

Thank you for banning MetaKnight. Even though I main him, thank you!

Yeah I agree with all of this, though whateves on MK. And you main Pit, MK is just MK.

MRM how can you say you couldn't run unity didn't you just run a bunch of weird rulesets?

People around here love my rules.

Also, that one specific tournament hasn't ran yet (with Summit legal ), but brawl is a side event, 2 dollars. (YI:B, Lylat, SV and BF are all BANNNNNNNNNNED)

SMYM is the 10th of March and people around here care more about that. I've tried to run Unity before but I got laughed at when I gave the stage list. Like, by 7 people all at once. The non Trent/Thugz/DYosh people on the Nebraska (brawl) PR and HM list.

When Trent ran Unity, no one came and entered other than me and Thugz, you know, the people who would enter no matter what. Tyser didn't enter, Mike didn't enter, none of the Melee people even showed up other. Boo!

FYI, I plan on going Ness and Link at that tournament.

We are gonna have another tournament next weekend, might run unity there because it's at a college :o

Let's bring the FD card here. To people who support banning Frigate: FD will have to go first, it's way worse. Thank you.

Deal.

 

[Strong Badam]

When stages becomes problematic.
Without MK, Brinstar and RC are not a problem.

you know it's funny because I've heard this argument 8000 times but every time I hear it it just seems weaker and weaker. the stages have inherent problems that aren't suddenly mitigated by removing a character from the game

And if you think PS2 has any problem, you should try andlearn it.[/color]

PS2 is one of my best CPs in many MUs and I know the stage very well. It still has no place in competitive play; the random polarizing stage transformations lead to inconsistent results and some transformations test skills that frankly should not be tested. The ice transformation is just ********, for example.

You guys also have some sort of "innocent until proven guilty" ideology with banning things, which would work if you guys did the same with items, but no, they were banned over a month before the game was released. Double standards ahoy!

 

[Player-1]

You get punished for anything on anystage if your opponent is smart enough including FD so why should this make frigate bannable

it doesn't make it bannable....


I never said that this is why it is bannable lol. Try rereading this conversation.

 

[DRDN]

Your trying to get melee people to play brawl that sounds like a good reason noone shows

Can't on phone about to die but diddy shouldn't be complaining about this stage the right sideds so good

 

[MegaRobMan]

you know it's funny because I've heard this argument 8000 times but every time I hear it it just seems weaker and weaker. the stages have inherent problems that aren't suddenly mitigated by removing a character from the game

PS2 is one of my best CPs in many MUs and I know the stage very well. It still has no place in competitive play; the random polarizing stage transformations lead to inconsistent results and some transformations test skills that frankly should not be tested. The ice transformation is just ********, for example.

You guys also have some sort of "innocent until proven guilty" ideology with banning things, which would work if you guys did the same with items, but no, they were banned over a month before the game was released. Double standards ahoy!

Rainbow seems like a better stage than Brinstar/Frigate/FD in terms of competitiveness, even though I don't really like it.

PS2 is legit even though I don't really like it.

I agree with your last part too.

Your trying to get melee people to play brawl that sounds like a good reason noone shows

Geee, that's funny, they sure show up when I throw MY TOURNAMENTS with better stages.

 

[Player-1]

it's a bad diddy stage, it's not as bad as brinstar, it's not even THAT bad, but it's still bad for us.

A stage that "isn't good for us, but isn't bad" would probably like halberd. Frigate is worse than halberd for us.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

PS2 is one of my best CPs in many MUs and I know the stage very well. It still has no place in competitive play; the random polarizing stage transformations lead to inconsistent results and

Prove it.

some transformations test skills that frankly should not be tested. The ice transformation is just ********, for example.

"I think that Final Destination, Smashville and Battlefield test skills that shouldn't be tested, so lets ban them!"

What silly reasoning.

You guys also have some sort of "innocent until proven guilty" ideology with banning things, which would work if you guys did the same with items, but no, they were banned over a month before the game was released. Double standards ahoy!

The fact that attendance would dramatically drop for a tournament with items legal automatically renders them uncompetitive, regardless of objective in-game competitive merit.

---------

In regards to the stuff MegaRob is saying, I agree with his decision. It is obviously leading to far better attendance, and it is impossible to objectively draw the line on which stages are "competitive" and which aren't. As long as he hasn't introduced any blatant double standards, I see no issues.

---------

P-1, you said the only problem with Frigate is the bad recovery on one side. You didn't explain why this affects Diddy more adversely than the majority of the rest of the cast.

 

[Strong Badam]

My reasoning isn't silly; the stages inherently prevent consistent results by their random nature. Even Smashville is random. The point of a tournament is to find the best player, and if you want to find the best player without preventable randomness changing the outcome, then remove it. If you're going to ban things like items on the basis that they're random, then do the same for stages.

The fact that attendance would dramatically drop for a tournament with items legal automatically renders them uncompetitive, regardless of objective in-game competitive merit.

You mean like how a decent portion of the community, including those who don't main MK, said they were quitting Brawl after APEX and how it might have something to do with the MK ban?

 

[MegaRobMan]

Strong Bad, small stage list, infinite's legal. Vote for him in 2012.

He's got half my vote.

 

[-LzR-]

An average match in PS2 will have all the transformations at least once. And they are all nonrandom. Only thing random is the order of them, but you have plenty of time to react. Also the ice part isn't ********. It's about abusing the decreased traction for your own good. Like Dedede can Dthrow to dsmash most character if he is chaingrabbing.

 

[MegaRobMan]

You platform camp that **** so hard.