The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Heartstring]

surely seeing the countless acts of stupidity m2k has done has basically forced smash to be scene as a bad community. i see no real problem with banning him. but the ban needs to be rnforced by the entire community, which-sadly-isnt something that can be confirmed, and people bending the rules for him shows smash to be even more amatuer
as a scrub myself, it doesnt bother me that it doesnt become more popular, but i do dislike events with like, 25 peopel going it makes being a TO a massive gamble on the wallet

 

[ADHD]

surely seeing the countless acts of stupidity m2k has done has basically forced smash to be scene as a bad community. i see no real problem with banning him. but the ban needs to be rnforced by the entire community, which-sadly-isnt something that can be confirmed, and people bending the rules for him shows smash to be even more amatuer
as a scrub myself, it doesnt bother me that it doesnt become more popular, but i do dislike events with like, 25 peopel going it makes being a TO a massive gamble on the wallet

If we want him banned he should be banned from actually viable behavior to punish, and not get him for pesty things like the sade situation.

We can't yellow card people for being a stinky nerd.

 

[Allin]

surely seeing the countless acts of stupidity m2k has done has basically forced smash to be scene as a bad community. i see no real problem with banning him. but the ban needs to be rnforced by the entire community, which-sadly-isnt something that can be confirmed, and people bending the rules for him shows smash to be even more amatuer
as a scrub myself, it doesnt bother me that it doesnt become more popular, but i do dislike events with like, 25 peopel going it makes being a TO a massive gamble on the wallet

Tell me your

Banning a top player for something as stupid as anything would be worse for a TO. The community does not wanna see m2k banned that's for sure. (Most of the community are his fanboys)

 

[Tin Man]

Just wonderin...

What was the largest Brawl tournament (and how many entrants)?
How many entrants where at Pound4 Melee?

 

[Alex Strife]

some WC local had 304 or something ( I am trying to get more for brawl for Apex )

Pound 4 had 350 or so for melee.

 

[Allin]

Just wonderin...

What was the largest Brawl tournament (and how many entrants)?
How many entrants where at Pound4 Melee?

Im pretty sure it was Apex, but I can't be sure maybe one of the MLG's?

Edit:

some WC local had 304 or something ( I am trying to get more for brawl for Apex )

A Local had 304 well call me wrong

 

[stingers]

i think cot4 is the biggest

 

[Alex Strife]

No I think I had more than cot4 but g2 had 5-10 more than me

It was called Axis I remember it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I thought M2K got red carded for splitting...

Did I just read he got red carded for trying to do something nice?

 

[Alex Strife]

IDK If I should say this...

I want to really suggest a new way of doing things.

As I have stated before our ruleset should not be forced upon people. It should be something we all agree to. That said it is a growing process and mistakes will be made by both parties. I had a few suggestions.

• Make all the major events agree to the same ruleset
  • First start with major regional events. Nationals will be good but build up to it. Just deciding we will do something does not help
• Reword some of the things in how privileges are given or not.
  • You should never say to a community of people that are young that they CANNOT get something if you do not agree. It is a human trait for people at this age to rebel against ANYTHING. It is an excuse. It should be encouraged to use the ruleset but not forced. IMO they should of sold people on getting additional features, rather than , wording that they will not get this. People will go to tournaments whether it is Unity or not if the people running it and the people going are hyped enough.
• Once that is all done and you have a huge national that happens every year, THEN you get a fully detailed punishment and code of conduct thing going.
  • This does 2 things. First off by having a huge event it makes the red/yellow card have more weight. If I say to M2K you cannot go to KTAR he will just go LOL i'll go to this instead the week after. That is not what you want. You want people to understand not only is it wrong but it is something that should not be tolerated.

I mean there is a lot more but I just think of that. It is really a public image issue more than the things being decided.

Think of it this way. Yea "everyone" is using Unity now and you are forcing people to agree to the same ruleset but are people agreeing to it due to wanting a unified ruleset or overall fear. You have to remove the fear and it will help people a lot.

You can also , for newcomers, instead of force them as well put up a chart of what stages are legal in most of the United States and say based on the numbers the following are legal / not legal. Average it out and THAT is your recommended ruleset.


Point is using the ruleset should be a privileged not something that should be "detrimental" to not use. It is all about selling it to people as something positive...which IMHO is the main issue.

When I try to talk to the public I want to make sure I am nice and calm but also understanding. Sometimes I do not see that with the people in charge. Maybe my approach is different but I find it works for me.

Yea we can say " well they do not listen to us we have to be firm " ...but just think about it. Is it their fault or is it something that maybe can be fixed.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not sure who has the story right any more.

From what I had heard, M2K lost to Sade 1-2 in pools, using Ganondorf and Falco.
Sade then forfeited this set to get it recorded as a 0-2, citing that that's the expected outcome, to the agreement of all directly involved parties.

As a final result, M2K got put on **** probation for losing to Sade.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No, it doesn't.

The movement is 100% predictable, so you can still space.

Forcing players to learn how this stage affects their character's aerial mobility and learning how to space in a moving stage is stupid since they they are only going to use this knowledge on one stage. This is nothing like learning a certain pattern on a stage since spacing also involves your opponent.

 

[Allin]

IDK If I should say this...

I want to really suggest a new way of doing things.

As I have stated before our ruleset should not be forced upon people. It should be something we all agree to. That said it is a growing process and mistakes will be made by both parties. I had a few suggestions.

• Make all the major events agree to the same ruleset
  • First start with major regional events. Nationals will be good but build up to it. Just deciding we will do something does not help
• Reword some of the things in how privileges are given or not.
  • You should never say to a community of people that are young that they CANNOT get something if you do not agree. It is a human trait for people at this age to rebel against ANYTHING. It is an excuse. It should be encouraged to use the ruleset but not forced. IMO they should of sold people on getting additional features, rather than , wording that they will not get this. People will go to tournaments whether it is Unity or not if the people running it and the people going are hyped enough.
• Once that is all done and you have a huge national that happens every year, THEN you get a fully detailed punishment and code of conduct thing going.
  • This does 2 things. First off by having a huge event it makes the red/yellow card have more weight. If I say to M2K you cannot go to KTAR he will just go LOL i'll go to this instead the week after. That is not what you want. You want people to understand not only is it wrong but it is something that should not be tolerated.

I mean there is a lot more but I just think of that. It is really a public image issue more than the things being decided.

Think of it this way. Yea "everyone" is using Unity now and you are forcing people to agree to the same ruleset but are people agreeing to it due to wanting a unified ruleset or overall fear. You have to remove the fear and it will help people a lot.

You can also , for newcomers, instead of force them as well put up a chart of what stages are legal in most of the United States and say based on the numbers the following are legal / not legal. Average it out and THAT is your recommended ruleset.


Point is using the ruleset should be a privileged not something that should be "detrimental" to not use. It is all about selling it to people as something positive...which IMHO is the main issue.

When I try to talk to the public I want to make sure I am nice and calm but also understanding. Sometimes I do not see that with the people in charge. Maybe my approach is different but I find it works for me.

Yea we can say " well they do not listen to us we have to be firm " ...but just think about it. Is it their fault or is it something that maybe can be fixed.

Alex can I hug you?

This is exactly what the BRoom should do, not sure they will or not since they already tried the whole 'recommend ruleset' once before, but I have to say as someone wants to start TO'ing in the future I whole heartily agree with you.

 

[Heartstring]

good call strife

the BRoom struggles to understand a concept known as the PAC theorum. guys, look it up, it will hel pyou out in the future

 

[Alex Strife]

It is amazing what a few winks of sleep does to my mind xD.

 

[Allin]

Make all the major events agree to the same ruleset
First start with major regional events. Nationals will be good but build up to it. Just deciding we will do something does not help

When you said this the first word that popped into my mind was circuit.

I've thrown the idea for the BBR-RC to make a circuit in the past but its pretty much been ignored, A circuit similar to MLG but just for smash would probably be the best thing we could do for the tournament scene.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That ideas are actually good, Strife.
Making Circuits, Leagues and probably increasing prizes depending on how many Unity Tournaments you attended....
Seems interesting and worth look into.



@Ankoku: I'm confused now as well.... Where's Chibo to explain that?

 

[Heartstring]

When you said this the first word that popped into my mind was circuit.

I've thrown the idea for the BBR-RC to make a circuit in the past but its pretty much been ignored, A circuit similar to MLG but just for smash would probably be the best thing we could do for the tournament scene.

a circuit of just 3 games, all of which in the same area
sounds good, they could also feature a tournament of each different hack on each single tournament in the curcuit (i.e: P:M in event 1, B+ in event 2, etc.)

 

[Alex Strife]

Well, I know this is tooting my horn, but what I have done with Apex is essentially a circuit cept they are all around the world.


I mean the stages are things I disagree with but I also disagree with the infinite rule and the suicide rule.

 

[Allin]

Well, I know this is tooting my horn, but what I have done with Apex is essentially a circuit cept they are all around the world.


I mean the stages are things I disagree with but I also disagree with the infinite rule and the suicide rule.

Thusly the idea behind a 'recommend ruleset' being reinstated, but alas unity could be hear to stay or forced.

I just noticed how Path to Apex kinda is a circuit which is great, but we need more Apex like tournaments that are similar.

 

[Heartstring]

oh you mean the removal of the 'whoever performs the suicide gets the win' thing? yeah that should have stayed too IMO

 

[AlphaZealot]

Axis - 301
Genesis - 295
Apex 2010 - 269
MLG Columbus - 250
COT 4 - 249

 

[z00ted]

Axis - 301
Genesis - 295
Apex 2010 - 269
MLG Columbus - 250
COT 4 - 249

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfEisP5__gg&feature=fvwrel#t=36s

!

 

[Alex Strife]

There are a lot of things that can and should be changed.


I think also people in the community need to be told things straight to them instead of trying to be nice.



I want to say something about Jason.

What he does in his life...is that HIS LIFE. If he wants to go and be miserable and have no one house him that is his choice and only ppl that are close to him have the right to change things or intervene. The problem is that when these things effect other people in the community is where a lot of this happens. To me if he is not doing anything harmful to the tournaments then he will just be one of those ppl that no one likes...or he changes and gets his **** together. THIS IS NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PERSON...but it is clearly evident that someone like him clearly does not understand how to act or is not able to mentally or emotionally do it himself. I am going to focus on making his tournament experience great like everyone else and that is all I need to be doing.

At my tournaments he will not forfeit or anything. I know this and he, and others , will be told this as well. Also, if he is to mess around in pools and I find it is hurting others then he will be dealt with when that occurs. I think that is up to the TO. If you are apart of Unity your GOAL is to report anything like that that occurs in full detail...there are so many stories about G2 with him that it will always be different depending on the person.


You all want to make the community great...for that you all should be thanked...but remember calling people "stupid" or mocking people ALA BPC will not change anything...it will cause a huge problem. I know some of you are young but one thing we all learned in life is to be the bigger man. Do not be that guy that mocks others.

I learned this the hard way and I am striving to be better.


I will make a promise I will do what I can to break records at Apex.

 

[CT Chia]

When you said this the first word that popped into my mind was circuit.

I've thrown the idea for the BBR-RC to make a circuit in the past but its pretty much been ignored, A circuit similar to MLG but just for smash would probably be the best thing we could do for the tournament scene.

It hasn't been ignored at all lol

 

[Alex Strife]

Guys do not forget there are other priorities for certain groups...before one takes care D they have to go through A-C

 

[Tesh]

I thought M2K got red carded for splitting...

Did I just read he got red carded for trying to do something nice?

didn't know if someone else addressed this, but its not like he forfeit a money match to her so she would have lunch money. There were only 3 spots to get out of pools. "doing something nice" for sade means "doing something mean" for the person who deserved 3rd seed. If he really wants to do something nice for her as a player, he should train her so she can make it out of pools when he isn't around.

Gah, this is basically the same exact thing I said in the Pound 5 thread though.

 

[Keitaro]

Axis - 301
Genesis - 295
Apex 2010 - 269
MLG Columbus - 250
COT 4 - 249

I'm gonna beat these numbers one day....

I hope Strife can do it first though, then I'll beat him >:D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There are a lot of things that can and should be changed.


I think also people in the community need to be told things straight to them instead of trying to be nice.



I want to say something about Jason.

What he does in his life...is that HIS LIFE. If he wants to go and be miserable and have no one house him that is his choice and only ppl that are close to him have the right to change things or intervene. The problem is that when these things effect other people in the community is where a lot of this happens. To me if he is not doing anything harmful to the tournaments then he will just be one of those ppl that no one likes...or he changes and gets his **** together. THIS IS NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PERSON...but it is clearly evident that someone like him clearly does not understand how to act or is not able to mentally or emotionally do it himself. I am going to focus on making his tournament experience great like everyone else and that is all I need to be doing.

At my tournaments he will not forfeit or anything. I know this and he, and others , will be told this as well. Also, if he is to mess around in pools and I find it is hurting others then he will be dealt with when that occurs. I think that is up to the TO. If you are apart of Unity your GOAL is to report anything like that that occurs in full detail...there are so many stories about G2 with him that it will always be different depending on the person.


You all want to make the community great...for that you all should be thanked...but remember calling people "stupid" or mocking people ALA BPC will not change anything...it will cause a huge problem. I know some of you are young but one thing we all learned in life is to be the bigger man. Do not be that guy that mocks others.

I learned this the hard way and I am striving to be better.


I will make a promise I will do what I can to break records at Apex.

I learned the same thing a long time ago. Made me a lot more mello, but I got to be less of a jerk in the long run.

Props for sharing this I gotta say.

 

[PGH Carroll]

So you guys are really gonna not let m2k enter brawl tourneys. Really now? Did some one actually hand Jason a redcard? Looooool I'd pay to see that.
But on the real this card system is absurd. More reason for m2k to just come back to melee for good.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have sand-bagged in pools in the past and lost because of it (ACL Melbourne).

Can I have a red card too? That's bracket manipulation, right? :3

 

[B.A.M.]

Grim thinks hes smart. Good for him.

Im really intrigued by what will happen at Apex. Alex, you are doing things properly in imo. Its unfortunate due to the age of the community we have very few people such as yourself trying to get stuff done instead of the constant forum banter. Keep up the work.
Also, on an international level I believe Apex has to come to a proper ruleset to adhere to its players. Everyone can debate all day, but I do believe you are justified in your logical progression.

@Carroll: You, having little to no knowledge regarding the situation, deeming it lulzy is taken with a grain of salt. If you wish, you can read through to learn what actually took place and state your opinion from there. Yes there couldve been potentially a better groundwork for repercussions laid out, but nonetheless the man agree to enter a tournament. Which means he concurred to abide by their rules. Which he didnt, after his warning from Ktar5. You cant just blame BBR RC on this. Jason has some fault, regardless of how foolish you make think it all is.

Now I do believe we should all remove ourselves from this M2K tangent and focus on potential changes to this ruleset.

 

[Zankoku]

didn't know if someone else addressed this, but its not like he forfeit a money match to her so she would have lunch money. There were only 3 spots to get out of pools. "doing something nice" for sade means "doing something mean" for the person who deserved 3rd seed. If he really wants to do something nice for her as a player, he should train her so she can make it out of pools when he isn't around.

Gah, this is basically the same exact thing I said in the Pound 5 thread though.

See, the thing is, nobody who would've made it out of pools would've not made it out of pools.
If M2K 1-2 Sade remained, it would've been M2K (1st seed), Sade (2nd seed), Brick (3rd seed); since Sade forfeited, it was M2K (1st seed), Brick (2nd seed), Sade (3rd seed). Amusingly enough, Brick did not make it out of the second round of pools anyway.
Either Sade should be yellow-carded for actually "altering results," or neither Sade nor M2K should be carded in this specific situation.

 

[vVv Rapture]

See, the thing is, nobody who would've made it out of pools would've not made it out of pools.
If M2K 1-2 Sade remained, it would've been M2K (1st seed), Sade (2nd seed), Brick (3rd seed); since Sade forfeited, it was M2K (1st seed), Brick (2nd seed), Sade (3rd seed). Amusingly enough, Brick did not make it out of the second round of pools anyway.
Either Sade should be yellow-carded for actually "altering results," or neither Sade nor M2K should be carded in this specific situation.

You can't just not punish someone because "things worked out". If that's how legal systems worked, we'd live in an even more terrible world than we do now.

It doesn't matter that Sade forfeited or not. Obviously in this instance, she didn't forfeit just to forfeit, she forfeited because of what M2K did. And even then, you can't strip M2K of responsibility because Brick happened to not make it out of second round pools. What if he did? And even if he didn't, M2K still isn't punishment-free and shouldn't be.

What if someone was charged with arson and burned down someone's house, but then the arsonist turns around and says, "I'll buy you guys a new house, no strings attached, I'm sorry, I won't do it again." Now you can just take away his arson charges that the government probably put on the guy?

 

[Zankoku]

And what M2K did is equivalent to arson? I don't know how big of a deal sandbagging a pools match is, especially considering the players who did advance would've done so anyway, but if his action is "bracket manipulation" then Sade's action of counter-forfeiting after the fact is just as much of a "bracket manipulation", whether to negate a previous act or not being irrelevant to that fact. You're saying M2K shouldn't be punishment-free for this, okay. Are you also going to tell me that in this case, two wrongs did make a right, and Sade should be punishment-free?

 

[vVv Rapture]

And what M2K did is equivalent to arson? I don't know how big of a deal sandbagging a pools match is, especially considering the players who did advance would've done so anyway, but if his action is "bracket manipulation" then Sade's action of counter-forfeiting after the fact is just as much of a "bracket manipulation", whether to negate a previous act or not being irrelevant to that fact. You're saying M2K shouldn't be punishment-free for this, okay. Are you also going to tell me that in this case, two wrongs did make a right, and Sade should be punishment-free?

I really hope I don't have to explain the difference between arsony and throwing a match in Brawl, it was a hypothetical example, come on.

And I never said Sade shouldn't be punished for it. I wasn't really commenting on it. As for Sade's case, that's really up to whomever makes the rules since it's an obvious special case. It's like someone trying to stop a crime in action but ends up breaking a law to do so - it's entirely up to the law enforcer to press any outstanding, or regular for that matter, charges on the person who helped. Same can be said here.

Regardless, M2K still did something wrong whether you think it worked out or not (and that's entirely subjective, I might add).

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not entirely in agreement with M2K throwing a pools match basically because he felt like it as "doing something wrong", but I'm definitely not in agreement with only one of two actually getting punished for it. I mean, if you really want to get into it, the exact list of possible offenses is
Prize Splitting, Intentional Forfeiting, Intentional Under-performance, and Outside Deals
Punish none or both, but only doing one because it's M2K is absurd.

And yes, it worked out specifically due to the actions of Sade. If you argue otherwise, then her act of forfeiting afterward are even more in question.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Didn't read through this cluster**** of the recent pages with all those horrible pro-ban scrubness but one thing I just couldn't read without responding to it:

Bizkit, did you seriously say that because Brinstar is banned at KTAR5 MK shouldn't do as well and if he still does that it proves it's him and not the stage? If that's the case ... then there's a lot of wrong in your assertion ... so much wrong that I probably couldn't even make up my mind on where to start pointing out what's all wrong in that idea.

Edit: And I 100% agree with Ankoku.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm not entirely in agreement with M2K throwing a pools match basically because he felt like it as "doing something wrong", but I'm definitely not in agreement with only one of two actually getting punished for it. I mean, if you really want to get into it, the exact list of possible offenses is
Prize Splitting, Intentional Forfeiting, Intentional Under-performance, and Outside Deals
Punish none or both, but only doing one because it's M2K is absurd.

And yes, it worked out specifically due to the actions of Sade. If you argue otherwise, then her act of forfeiting afterward are even more in question.

As I said, I really wasn't commenting on Sade's position. Yeah, both should be punished if we're going to be fair here, but Sade's case is a special one that is probably an exception due to the circumstances, and dealing with that is both subjective, arbitrary and out of my hands entirely.

My point was just that M2K shouldn't go unpunished, nor anyone really I'm just using M2K as an example, just because things "worked out" in the end.

 

[John12346]

Bizkit, did you seriously say that because Brinstar is banned at KTAR5 MK shouldn't do as well and if he still does that it proves it's him and not the stage? If that's the case ... then there's a lot of wrong in your assertion ... so much wrong that I probably couldn't even make up my mind on where to start pointing out what's all wrong in that idea.

...I'd like to hear your reasoning behind this...