The True Arena - Kirby MU Discussion "Weeks" 10/11: Ness, Meta Knight, Lucario and Lucas

[SapphSabre777]

Well, I think Yoshi shold be 35:65, I don't know about Mario

Could you please clarify as to why this is so? A formatted, detailed post like Togii's, Eevee's and Mazdamaxsti's would be better suited, as well as some evidence (like a bracket, VoD, video, replay, etc.), to give credibility on this statement.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Could you please clarify as to why this is so? A formatted, detailed post like Togii's, Eevee's and Mazdamaxsti's would be better suited, as well as some evidence (like a bracket, VoD, video, replay, etc.), to give credibility on this statement.

I really don't know how to explain, probably since I never went to a tournament and don't knoe what some terms mean

 

[Togii]

Look, everyone who is going to post on Yoshi and Mario has already done so. Everyone agrees that Yoshi is a terrible matchup and Mario is pretty much even. Would you rather have no posts at all or have us discuss a previous matchup?

 

[Togii]

I really don't know how to explain, probably since I never went to a tournament and don't knoe what some terms mean

Well this explains how you can think Kirby handily wins the Fox matchup LOL

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well this explains how you can think Kirby handily wins the Fox matchup LOL

Well I still have for glory knowledge

Also I can't go to a tournament, none near where I am

 

[SapphSabre777]

Look, everyone who is going to post on Yoshi and Mario has already done so. Everyone agrees that Yoshi is a terrible matchup and Mario is pretty much even. Would you rather have no posts at all or have us discuss a previous matchup?

I understand. What with very limited discussion now, you all went to something else to wait on. My apologies for not understanding sooner. To both you and the Kirby Boards.

Well, after talking to a few people (including a few Kirby mains) and since there is little to no motions and such about the MUs, I will be finishing up the "week" of Mario and Yoshi by tomorrow. If any of you have any final words or such, please say so with posthaste.

As for the Mega Poll, I think late Tuesday would be good, to allow some time for a break and a free discussion period, starting right now.

Also, may you rest in peace, Satoru Iwata.

 

[Wintermelon43]

R.I.P Iwata

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Doesn't our Usmash have intangibility? I have read that.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Doesn't our Usmash have intangibility? I have read that.

Intangibility? Are you, by any chance, referring to disjointed hitboxes? U-Smash does have those.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Intangibility? Are you, by any chance, referring to disjointed hitboxes? U-Smash does have those.

I mean...sure? because I have read our Usmash wont trade unless you hit kirby himself, instead of the feet
Same with Utilt and Dsmash

 

[Bribery]

Kirby's feet are intangible during Up-Smash and Up-Tilt. His feet are also intangible for the strong hitbox of D-Smash.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Starting now, I will be finalizing the votes and such of the Mario and Yoshi matchups and give them to you when I'm finished.

Question of interest, guys. We have one character in 1st, and two characters in 2nd with the same amount of votes. All three characters have speed, so I was thinking of next week being "Speed Week". Would you guys be OK with 3 characters to discuss or just 2?

 

[Togii]

Starting now, I will be finalizing the votes and such of the Mario and Yoshi matchups and give them to you when I'm finished.

Question of interest, guys. We have one character in 1st, and two characters in 2nd with the same amount of votes. All three characters have speed, so I was thinking of next week being "Speed Week". Would you guys be OK with 3 characters to discuss or just 2?

I hadn't voted yet, and I think mine broke the tie.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I hadn't voted yet, and I think mine broke the tie.

Yup. Yours did. I was about to flip out because I opened up the second part and saw another se-...and now we have a 3-way tie thanks to votes from someone. XD I'm getting a tiebreaker right now!

Also, to answer your question a page back, the matchups that haven't been discussed were from Asdioh's thread, which is linked on the top, just so you knew.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Honestly past discussion is good js

 

[Wintermelon43]

Who are these characters that are tied anyway?

 

[Sparky15]

Yoshi is NOT THAT BAD. I don't get it. I certainly agree it's in Yoshi's favor, but I'd rate it 55:45. Mario can be worse than Yoshi.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Well, I've finally posted the final MU numbers for this week. Fortunately, you all had a general consensus for each one:

[45:55]
[30:70] ​

With that, that ends Week 6. Lemme answer a few questions before I go.

Honestly past discussion is good js

Oh, I know. We will do past discussions and re-discuss. It's just that there are too many characters with "?:?s" on them. But I understand, that's all fine and dandy. ^^

Who are these characters that are tied anyway?

First off, no matter the results, one of the characters to be discussed will be Sonic. Our second place has three people: Captain Falcon, Roy, and MIi Brawler, thus that silly little "Speed Week" idea. Now I just need to figure out what to do with this 3-way fiasco.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well, I've finally posted the final MU numbers for this week. Fortunately, you all had a general consensus for each one:

[45:55]
[30:70] ​

With that, that ends Week 6. Lemme answer a few questions before I go.

Oh, I know. We will do past discussions and re-discuss. It's just that there are too many characters with "?:?s" on them. But I understand, that's all fine and dandy. ^^


First off, no matter the results, one of the characters to be discussed will be Sonic. Our second place has three people: Captain Falcon, Roy, and MIi Brawler, thus that silly little "Speed Week" idea. Now I just need to figure out what to do with this 3-way fiasco.

OH Yeah, That remids me, I wanted to vote for Ryu but I accidentatly sent my vote before I could (So it might be a four-Way tie)

 

[Wintermelon43]

oh, and apprantatly you didn't count my vote?

 

[SapphSabre777]

oh, and apprantatly you didn't count my vote?

Well, you didn't follow the format on the first page, or at least give a well-written argument about why the MU should be a specific amount. You only gave a ratio. I really do not want to put in a vote that only has a number with no bearing and no evidence.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well, you didn't follow the format on the first page, or at least give a well-written argument about why the MU should be a specific amount. You only gave a ratio. I really do not want to put in a vote that only has a number with no bearing and no evidence.

Sorry about that. I don't know what a lot of terms mean, and I don't have an easy way to view the matchup. Makes sense though.

(Yes, that face was an exaggeration, I coudn't find another sad smile face lol)

 

[SapphSabre777]

Sorry about that. I don't know what a lot of terms mean, and I don't have an easy way to view the matchup. Makes sense though.

(Yes, that face was an exaggeration, I coudn't find another sad smile face lol)

Well, there are other threads and such that can help you out with learning the terms, and there are people that can help teach you. Just don't think that you are useless. You are valuable, one way or the other.

 

[Wintermelon43]

What so you mean By "and there are people that can help teach you?" And where is the term thread also?

 

[Togii]

What so you mean By "and there are people that can help teach you?" And where is the term thread also?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/wiki/glossary

That is a great list that covers pretty much all terms used on here afaik. Some of them do not apply for Smash 4 (wavedash, edgehog, etc.)

Yoshi is NOT THAT BAD. I don't get it. I certainly agree it's in Yoshi's favor, but I'd rate it 55:45. Mario can be worse than Yoshi.

Maybe you should've posted about why the matchup isn't bad then. Yoshi has all the tools to make sure Kirby never lands, has a good projectile, more kill power than Kirby, can break out of almost all our strings with nair, and has better frame data on almost all his ground attacks, with the ability to stuff our our aerial approaches with retreating fair, sh nair, usmash, etc. Idk if it's 30:70, but it's definitely way worse than the Mario matchup.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Woo hoo! Someone voted while I was asleep and the tie is over! Our second character is Captain Falcon.

To elaborate, this week we will be discussing:
Sonic and Captain Falcon!
I'll get to contacting the other boards and formatting the title page as fast as I can (get it? XD). Have fun, guys and gals!

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well it didn't really take that long to change the bame did it?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Also, I think Yoshi's a little less severe (35:65) But what do I know really?

 

[JS2D]

EDIT: This match should give a decent idea of what to expect. Note that this is pre 1.0.6, but Sonic's game plan is still generally the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Ws9v64-kU

This is my first matchup review on this thread. I’m still new to this, so be gentle

1. Pros:

· We can jab out spin dash (sometimes; if spin dash connects between the jabs you’re in trouble)

2. Cons:

Everything. This matchup is heavily skewed towards Sonic’s favor in so many ways:

· He has the fastest running speed, which means he can just reset to neutral whenever he wants. Approaching him becomes a chore. The possibility of a timeout is very real.

· His F-smash – his primary killing move – is hard to punish out of shield, as it has good shield push back and decent end lag. His U-smash is very powerful, but not quite as easy to connect. Don’t forget he also has good kill throws (B-throw, then F-throw).

· Spin dash. This move alone can lead into about million things if it connects. It combos into most of his aerials and can lead into about 20-25% worth of damage – every time. Coupled with Kirby’s light weight, this means Sonic has zero trouble racking up damage and killing. The move is also incredible safe and can be cancelled (as long as it’s not fully charged). Kirby unfortunately doesn’t have the tools to punish it.

· Be careful of his upthrow. With poor DI, it can combo into U-air, leading to early kills. I’m not sure if it’s a true combo or not.

· Sonic doesn’t really have trouble landing against us. He has many options: cancelled D-air, auto cancelled aerials. Or he can just outmaneuver us since he has good mobility in the air.

· We can’t gimp him easily. His frame 3 up-b goes a great distance and has some invincibility frames.

· We can’t combo him easily either. He can just Up-B whenever he wants.

· Did I mention spin dash?

3. Copy ability: Useless, except the hat looks kinda nice. It can help you recover, but it sometimes goes the other way and has end lag, so use it at your own risk. Inhale is better anyway, since we can inhale him out of spin dash (as hard as it is to pull off, but it’s an option. The reduced end lag on Inhale helps a bit, but it’s still too much)

4. Customs: I don’t know much about custom sonic, so I’ll leave this blank.

5. Stages: Avoid long, platform-less stages (FD, DH) or stages with low ceilings (Halberd, Delfino)

6. Notes: I’ve been playing this matchup against our local sonic champ for some time now, in both friendlies and tournaments. My only advice is to pick a different character. In my opinion, this is easily Kirby’s worst matchup, and it’s just not worth the trouble. If you’re serious about going Kirby, I suggest you head to the sonic forums and learn everything you can about the character. You’re gonna need all the knowledge you can get.

7. 30-70

 

[Togii]

7. 30-70

I really don't think Sonic is 30:70. In my experience, Sonic is likely 45:55 or 40:60 and Captain Falcon is likely 60:40 or 55:45. I'll try to write up my matchup analyses later this week, but no guarantees since I'll be preparing for and participating in Evo.

 

[JS2D]

Lucky you XD
Good luck out there.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I really don't think Sonic is 30:70. In my experience, Sonic is likely 45:55 or 40:60 and Captain Falcon is likely 60:40 or 55:45. I'll try to write up my matchup analyses later this week, but no guarantees since I'll be preparing for and participating in Evo.

Well, no rush. And good luck, @ Togii ! Also, @ J JS2D , do you have a video or such that you can pull up for your review as evidence, just to further your point? It doesn't have to be your gameplay, just to note, and you have listed a fair bit of information for your ratio already.

 

[Sparky15]

Maybe you should've posted about why the matchup isn't bad then. Yoshi has all the tools to make sure Kirby never lands, has a good projectile, more kill power than Kirby, can break out of almost all our strings with nair, and has better frame data on almost all his ground attacks, with the ability to stuff our our aerial approaches with retreating fair, sh nair, usmash, etc. Idk if it's 30:70, but it's definitely way worse than the Mario matchup.

Playing this MU with a ton of caution, it's pretty safe to say that it isn't that tough. Sure, his n-air or up-air can break our up-tilt juggles, but we can b-throw -> b-air him instead, which is nice. His ground attacks aren't that much better than Kirby's, we can space with d-tilt and occasionally f-tilt. Besides, Yoshi mainly approaches in the air as we all know. With his n-air, f-air, and d-aid as his main approaches, we should play patiently and punish accordingly. Kirby's most valuable attacks in this MU are his effective punishing tools. However, the worst part are Yoshi's Egg Toss. The only thing to oppose it his powershielding and promptly back up.

Basically, Kirby shouldn't shield that much against Yoshi because of his frightening pressure game. He needs to position himself into a comfortable circumstance where he can safely inflict damage, and eventually earn a KO. Mixing up his recovery options are essential as well. Some decent stages are FD, due to the absence of platforms, and Duck Hunt, which can easily earn us early up-throw KOs and a it more space to work with.

Now for Mario. Now matter what, Mario is always better than Kirby in almost every statistic. Mario's ground game is better, has better KO moves than Kirby, has faster aerials and a dangerous f-air, and an amazing Fireball. Also, Mario is annoyingly safe on a lot of his moves, most notably his smash attacks. Kirby has to play to the best of his abilties to Mario's far superior moveset. As far as edgeguarding Mario, it's difficult considering his invincible startup on his Super Jump Punch. It's even a hassle ledge trumping him, since he could literally use it at any moment just to return onstage. B-air and f-air are obviously the best options, but most of the time, waiting on the stage is the safest option to go with.

In terms of stage picking, Mario is almost always more advantageous than Kirby. On Battlefield, Miiverse, Town & City, Dream Land, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Smashville, Halberd, and Lylat. FD and Duck Hunt are pretty even for both of them. So keep in mind that Mario could insert some effective platform pressure on you.

 

[Underhill]

For the Captain Faclon match-up with Kirby, Lets begin.

pros:
Some of Faclon's attacks can't hit Kirby since he's small and can use his crouch to his advantage.
Kirby can easily gimp faclon with d-air, forward-air, back-air, and the 3rd custom stone to spike him down.
Kirby can escape some of Captain Faclon's combos.
Better recovery.
Kirby can combo falcon anything out of his attacks such as d-air, up-tile, back throw, and forward-air.
Kirby's crouching can make faclon miss jab, forward-tile, forward smash(unless angled down which can be avoid with shield or roll based on reaction), back-air, and grab(I'll have to test to make sure).

cons:
Faclon is heavy so he can live longer. Also, rage helps him more than Kirby.
Kirby can die easily from Captain faclon's attacks since he's light and has slow falling speed.
Faclon's air game is better with better air speed and can also out-ranged kirby in the air with up-air.
Kirby's mobility is better both in the ground and in the air.
Faclon's d-air, back-air, and the knee is something to watch out for when you're off-stage as Kirby since his air speed is slow and he can get koed early if he get hit by those moves.
Kirby can have a hard time landing because of his floiness and slow air speed thanks to faclon's quickness and up-air.

I don't have anything on customs so that will have to wait.

Stages, I'll get back to it.

The match up is 60:40 at best for Kirby. Kirby has the tools to gimp falcon's recovery, crouch which can be a big problem for Captain faclon since he can miss and get punished with a d-tile or grab while Faclon has the mobility and power to take down Kirby. Not my best summary and I don't have a lot of experience with the match-up, but I do know that Kirby's ground game is better thanks to his crouch and small size which can cause problems for faclon.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Mario isn't that much better then kirby :/
The range in their attacks are near even I'm going to assume?
In terms of KOing, I also think that's near even(does mario have setups?)
If anything, we edge guard him better then the other way around, only slight and I think the best option I see is to use stone and time it right.
Mario has the 4th fastest air speed compared to our 4th slowest.......lol?
His Smash attacks aren't incredibly safe on shield and are still punishable but I think both characters have nearly just as good smashes.
(Our feet on Usmash has intangibility,just like his head on his)
Our Dair can lead to smashes and so can our Dtilt, which I doubt he has.
Both have good Utilts(it has intangibility like our. Usmash ^_^)
I think our Dtilt is slightly better
Ftilt......meh even I guess.

Mainly what's scary is how little lag Mario has on his attacks, coupled with a decent projectile that makes it harder to approach, and an UpB that can actually get out of our (rapid) jab.
It's soo duoble for kirby, they are quite similar in some aspects,
he has better air speed,projectile,slightly less laggier moves, but it's nothing too bad

BTW why MikeKirby or any other notable Kirby mains haven't shared their knowledge?

 

[Togii]

Sure, his n-air or up-air can break our up-tilt juggles, but we can b-throw -> b-air him instead, which is nice.

Once. At a maximum of 12%. And it's not just our utilt juggles that nair breaks out of; it can get out of jab and uair strings, too.

His ground attacks aren't that much better than Kirby's, we can space with d-tilt and occasionally f-tilt.

But they are better, it doesn't matter by how much; if they beat us out, they beat us out, the margin doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure Yoshi's dtilt out-ranges ours, and I'm pretty sure his jab beats our ftilt in range and startup frames.

Basically, Kirby shouldn't shield that much against Yoshi because of his frightening pressure game.

What?? Shield is godlike against Yoshi, the only things he can do against it are tongue or grab, which he gets almost no reward from and can be spotdodged for a massive punish. You're only really in danger of your shield breaking if he catches you with a Ground Pound.

He needs to position himself into a comfortable circumstance where he can safely inflict damage...

Which isn't hard due to superior frame data, a great projectile, and almost unpunishable retreating fairs...

...and eventually earn a KO.

"Eventually" meaning around 100%? I'm pretty sure utilt to uair will kill Kirby at around 80-90%, and his smash attacks kill us around 100-110%, depending on the stage. Yoshi doesn't lack in the kill power department, and Kirby is one of the lightest characters in the game. Conversely, Yoshi is deceptively heavy, and most of Kirby's kill options won't kill below 120% from mid-stage.

...and Duck Hunt, which can easily earn us early up-throw KOs...

"Easily" being "if I camp the leftmost quarter of the stage, maybe he will approach me instead of spamming his amazing projectile"?

Aside from all that, you didn't even address the fact that he's extremely difficult to approach from the air and has a basically un-gimpable recovery. It seems like you're approaching the matchup assuming that your opponent is going to be an idiot and do exactly what you want him to do, and ignoring all the negatives that are present and obvious. Yoshi is a terrible matchup for Kirby, and almost everyone agrees that it's one of his worst.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

doubt it's 30:70 but yea.
Also Dair can beat Mario's UpB at least after a certain point? but pretty early yea
@MikeKirby have any knowledge to tell?

 

[Underhill]

Is there gonna be a discussion about the matchup of Kirby and Sheik, next week or it is done already? Sorry if it's a dumb question, I just want to know.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Is there gonna be a discussion about the matchup of Kirby and Sheik, next week or it is done already? Sorry if it's a dumb question, I just want to know.

It's already been discussed, but discussing a few slight things here and there wouldn't hurt, especially if they are things that haven't been touched upon. And it is not a dumb question in the slightest. ^^

 

[Sparky15]

Aside from all that, you didn't even address the fact that he's extremely difficult to approach from the air and has a basically un-gimpable recovery. It seems like you're approaching the matchup assuming that your opponent is going to be an idiot and do exactly what you want him to do, and ignoring all the negatives that are present and obvious. Yoshi is a terrible matchup for Kirby, and almost everyone agrees that it's one of his worst.

I'm just sharing my knowledge with the Yoshi MU from tournaments, including friendlies. I am aware that Kirby can barely approach Yoshi in the air, or n-air through his jabs and all that jazz. Honestly, it just doesn't feel like a terrible matchup. Then again, maybe I shouldn't share my personal opinion on things. I know it's a bad MU, but should it really be 30:70 in Yoshi's favor?