The tier-antitier argument again...

[ThePikaWither]

Yes, here it is again. To be honest, I don't believe in Smash tiers. Any character can be good if the person using him/her is good with him/her. Besides, a lot of people (me for instance) main low-tiers (Mr. Game and Watch) and are terrible with high-tiers (Rosalina). So why do we need tiers in the first place?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

tiers are rankings in characters from best to worst at the highest level of play. I could smack most of the high levels players with ganondorf if i put in 10,000,000 hours of work. However, at the highest level, I would get bombed no matter what, because ganon is slow, and doesn't get enough reward for the effort.

 

[Charey]

Tiers represent the current understanding of charcter strength at the top level of play, no game is perfectly balanced so there will be characters that better or worse then others.

No matter how much you love Melee Kirby tournament after tournament has produced no one who can use him well enough to compete with fox.

 

[dguy6789]

I really wish I had a nickel for every time some random novice with zero tournament experience posted on Smashboards about how they don't believe in tiers.

 

[dragontamer]

Tier lists are a tool to gauge community opinion on characters.

If you don't want to use the tool to improve your own gameplay, that is fine. But just as Smogon lists Pokemon in Ubers / OU / BL / UU, fighting game players often rank the characters in tiers.

Specific discussions of tiers is often lulz-worthy, with players demonstrating their ignorance of the game instead of contributing much. However, as tier list dicussions continue, month after month, the community as a whole does eventually learn about the game together. The community shares its experience and everyone improves. Those who participate in the matchup discussions often come out as far far more knowlegable players than those who ignored the discussion.

In summary, yes, tier lists are junk. However, the tier list discussion is one of the most important discussions in a competitive game. And I highly suggest that you take part in it. Why plant your head in the sand and ignore what the other players are talking about?

 

[GSM_Dren]

Yes, here it is again. To be honest, I don't believe in Smash tiers. Any character can be good if the person using him/her is good with him/her. Besides, a lot of people (me for instance) main low-tiers (Mr. Game and Watch) and are terrible with high-tiers (Rosalina). So why do we need tiers in the first place?

Yes, it is fine that you don't believe in the tier list. But, if you want to be a serious competitor in Smash, then it'd be a good idea to read into the discussion of tiers. Simply put, as others have said above: a tier list is the ranking of characters at the highest level competitive play. Therefore at high level of play, with both opponents being of equal skill, the player who plays a top tier character (like diddy atm) will have more success than a player who plays a lower tier (like GnW as you've mentioned). It does not account for players who are casual or haven't stepped up their game.

The need for a tier list is because it gives players an idea of who's strong in this game and may sway their decision in choosing a main. It also opens up discussion about the viability of characters, matchup ratios, etc. It is your choice if you want to ignore the tier list, but it is a lot of information that you'd be missing out on.

 

[TL?]

Yes, here it is again. To be honest, I don't believe in Smash tiers. Any character can be good if the person using him/her is good with him/her. Besides, a lot of people (me for instance) main low-tiers (Mr. Game and Watch) and are terrible with high-tiers (Rosalina). So why do we need tiers in the first place?

You misunderstand. A tier list evaluates only the characters. The outcome of an actual match is determined by not only the characters, but a lot more factors like the players and the decisions they make. Because of this a tier list isn't trying to say something like a high tier always beats a low tier, it is just trying to evaluate one aspect of the game. Not "believing in tiers" kind of doesn't really make sense. I mean it makes sense if you just don't find a real use for them. I wouldn't pick my main on a tier list and disagree with most tier lists currently floating around anyways. But I certainly don't discount the concept of a tier list. The characters are not all equally effective and even if they were you'd still have a tier list with just one tier. The real interest to me is that someone's own tier list can give you a lot of insight into their own understanding of the game which may really differ from your own. You can actually learn a lot about the game and the various characters with decent tier discussions.

 

[PKBeam]

"Oh no, not this again..."
The player doesn't change the character.
Therefore, when making a tier list for characters, the player's input is intentionally omitted.

 

[TriTails]

Ya know...

You can always ignore tier lists if you don't believe in them. Just because most people are obssesed with tier lists don't mean you must too...

 

[TheHypnotoad]

A tier list means which character has the upperhand in a game between two players of the exact same skill level. If two robots who have been programmed to play Smash perfectly, utilize every tech, get every read, etc., played each other and one was playing Sheik and the other was playing Ganondorf, the robot playing Sheik will win a majority of the time.

If you don't want to use the tool to improve your own gameplay, that is fine. But just as Smogon lists Pokemon in Ubers / OU / BL / UU, fighting game players often rank the characters in tiers.

Smogon tier lists are not comparable to Smash tier lists. Smogon tier lists are purely based on usage, based on the idea that the best Pokemon will be used more often than worse ones (which is true). Smogon tier lists don't involve determining how good each Pokemon actually is. Smash tier lists try to give an objective ranking of how good each character is.

I really wish I had a nickel for every time some random novice with zero tournament experience posted on Smashboards about how they don't believe in tiers.

You don't have to be a jerk just because someone has a lower post count than you, you know.

 

[etecoon]

Smogon tier lists are not comparable to Smash tier lists. Smogon tier lists are purely based on usage, based on the idea that the best Pokemon will be used more often than worse ones (which is true). Smogon tier lists don't involve determining how good each Pokemon actually is. Smash tier lists try to give an objective ranking of how good each character is.

Little Mac and Captain Falcon are the best characters in the game

Source: For Glory usage data

 

[dragontamer]

@ TheHypnotoad

Actually, Smogon usage tiers are determined by the 1695 Ranking usage rating. So you have to be a player well above average to even affect the tiers on Smogon. (Or by Smogon standards, the "average competitive player")

Smogon tiers aren't a simple popularity contest, it is a popularity contest weighted towards the best players.

The methodology and reasons are different. In particular, Smogon tiers are made because players wish to balance the metagame and change the rules in some fashion (notice the Prankster / Swag ban in the standard OU environment). Nonetheless, Smogon tiers effectively play the same role as tiers in fighting games: its the short-list of threats that you can expect in competitive play.

Just as I can guarantee Mega-Metagross on the ORAS OU Metagame on Smogon (a high-threat OU pokemon), I can also guarantee you that you will see Diddy and Shiek in the next tournament, because they are the current top tier threats in Smash4. If you want to ignore this fact, you're welcome to do so. But tier lists allow you to train and focus your skills against specific threats.

In any case, all games with more than 10 characters / classes will have tiers. Its a methodology that humans create to help us understand the competitive game and how to analyze other players. The purposes and interpretations of tier lists may differ from community to community, but tiers remain a universal trope across all video games for a reason.

 

[revengeska]

It's been forever since I've seen a "teirs don exits" joke. Whatever happened to those?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

@ TheHypnotoad

Actually, Smogon usage tiers are determined by the 1695 Ranking usage rating. So you have to be a player well above average to even affect the tiers on Smogon. (Or by Smogon standards, the "average competitive player")

Smogon tiers aren't a simple popularity contest, it is a popularity contest weighted towards the best players.

The methodology and reasons are different. In particular, Smogon tiers are made because players wish to balance the metagame and change the rules in some fashion (notice the Prankster / Swag ban in the standard OU environment). Nonetheless, Smogon tiers effectively play the same role as tiers in fighting games: its the short-list of threats that you can expect in competitive play.

Just as I can guarantee Mega-Metagross on the ORAS OU Metagame on Smogon (a high-threat OU pokemon), I can also guarantee you that you will see Diddy and Shiek in the next tournament, because they are the current top tier threats in Smash4. If you want to ignore this fact, you're welcome to do so. But tier lists allow you to train and focus your skills against specific threats.

In any case, all games with more than 10 characters / classes will have tiers. Its a methodology that humans create to help us understand the competitive game and how to analyze other players. The purposes and interpretations of tier lists may differ from community to community, but tiers remain a universal trope across all video games for a reason.

My point was that Smogon tier lists aren't decided upon by a small group of people like Smash tier lists are.

 

[dragontamer]

My point was that Smogon tier lists aren't decided upon by a small group of people like Smash tier lists are.

Did you mean to say that backwards or something?

I count five people in charge of the Ubers / OU banlist. That's a pretty small group by my imagination. The votes kinda don't matter, the OU council has gone against the will of the community before (thankfully, for the Mega-Gengar ban).

As far as Smash4 Tiers, they're no where near as "official" as Smogon tiers. Whereas Smogon tiers determine bans (ie: an OU pokemon is illegal to use in UU, and an Ubers pokemon is illegal to use in OU), Smash4 Tiers are purely community opinion about character strengths and matchups.

Yeah, they're very different, but they ultimately serve a similar purpose to the competitive player. OU says "Here's a bunch of pokemon you should be worried about in competitive setting". Similarly, the "S rank" and "A rank" tiers of Smash games (and fighting games in general) typically tell you which characters you should be worried about in a competitive setting.

 

[Sodo]

Did you mean to say that backwards or something?

I count five people in charge of the Ubers / OU banlist. That's a pretty small group by my imagination. The votes kinda don't matter, the OU council has gone against the will of the community before (thankfully, for the Mega-Gengar ban).

As far as Smash4 Tiers, they're no where near as "official" as Smogon tiers. Whereas Smogon tiers determine bans (ie: an OU pokemon is illegal to use in UU, and an Ubers pokemon is illegal to use in OU), Smash4 Tiers are purely community opinion about character strengths and matchups.

Yeah, they're very different, but they ultimately serve a similar purpose to the competitive player. OU says "Here's a bunch of pokemon you should be worried about in competitive setting". Similarly, the "S rank" and "A rank" tiers of Smash games (and fighting games in general) typically tell you which characters you should be worried about in a competitive setting.

I like the idea of Smogon style tiers in Smash. Uber would be Brawl MK, OU would be Melee Falco/Fox or Diddy Wii U/3DS, NU would be Pichu, etc. And of course the metagame is constantly evolving so these aren't static rankings. Imagine a UU Melee tournament with no Foxes, Falcos, Sheiks, Marths, etc. I wish low tier tournaments were more prominent.

 

[Nobie]

Tiers should be treated like an ongoing science experiment, a pursuit of accurate info that is willing to change as new data comes in. The problem is that too many people treat it like a bible, something that you are supposed to follow to the letter.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Did you mean to say that backwards or something?

I count five people in charge of the Ubers / OU banlist. That's a pretty small group by my imagination. The votes kinda don't matter, the OU council has gone against the will of the community before (thankfully, for the Mega-Gengar ban).

I don't think it's possible for you to be any more disingenuous than you are being right now.

I do not mean Ubers. I do not mean BL, or BL2, or BL3. I mean OU, UU, RU, and NU. The tiers. NOT THE BANLISTS.

Smash tier lists do not have banlists, with the exception of Meta Knight. The ENTIRE tier list is decided by a small group of people, who rank them based on how good they are. Smogon tier lists rank them based on their usage among the general population of players.

 

[Pazx]

Every time I see this thread has a new response I cringe a little. Tiers exist. Let this thread die.

 

[warriorman222]

tires don exits Where can I get me one of dem shirts?

Seriously, tiers exist because at high levels of play, each character is going to be better than/worse than x amount of characters. To you, do you think Ganon and Sonic are just as good as each other? Tiers exist. If you don't like them, ignore them. Don't go onto a forum saying how they don't exist. Because if one person makes a tier list somewhere, they automatically exist from that point on till the end of time.

 

[digiholic]

Think of tiers as skill multipliers.

Consider, say, Smash 4 Zelda. A lot of people are calling her bottom tier, so let's say she's got a multiplier of x1.0. Let's also consider Diddy Kong, who is undisputed best, and let's give him a x4.0.

That means that the Zelda player needs to be roughly four times better at Smash to beat the Diddy player. It's not impossible, there are good Zeldas and bad Diddys, but at the highest levels of tournament play, that probably won't happen. You don't see that big of a skill disparity at the high level tournaments.

 

[Sodo]

Think of tiers as skill multipliers.

Consider, say, Smash 4 Zelda. A lot of people are calling her bottom tier, so let's say she's got a multiplier of x1.0. Let's also consider Diddy Kong, who is undisputed best, and let's give him a x4.0.

That means that the Zelda player needs to be roughly four times better at Smash to beat the Diddy player. It's not impossible, there are good Zeldas and bad Diddys, but at the highest levels of tournament play, that probably won't happen. You don't see that big of a skill disparity at the high level tournaments.

This is an interesting way of looking at it, because it's absolutely true.

 

[Octagon]

Tiers should be treated like an ongoing science experiment, a pursuit of accurate info that is willing to change as new data comes in. The problem is that too many people treat it like a bible, something that you are supposed to follow to the letter.

There are so many people who only choose top tier characters, its so annoying. Just pick who you love and train to be amazing with that character. The victory will be all the more satisfying

 

[Watchful_Eye]

You really have to notice though that a tier list for bad oder average players would look very different. For example, if you are not an expert in Melee, you probably prefer Roy over Ice Climbers.

 

[JaggedToaster]

We all know Luigi is top-tier so I don't know why we're even discussing it.
But honestly, at lower level play, tiers don't exist. But going up the ranks, you're gonna want the character that wins