The Sword of Seals - Roy Moveset + Frame Data (incomplete)

[Doval]

Interesting concept but I'm not sure too many people are fast enough to cancel their jump OoS if they wanted to lol. Most of the time you just take that commitment (to the jump) since you already started it, and then aerial them on reaction or something if you happen to be in danger.

It's super easy, and happens automatically with Tap Jump.

 

[Vipermoon]

Finished frame counting for Roy, updated my frame data sheet accordingly. Let me know if I missed anything. I think the numbers match up with the OP but I also have all the stuff on block as well (sourspot and sweetspot).

The invincibility on his Blazer and his rolls I counted based on the character flashing, which I think is close to the actual invincibility but may not be exact. Same goes for counter active frames. He has an invincibility flash briefly on his Blazer though I'm not certain if that's actual invincibility or not, but I noted it for now.

Something is very wrong with either your aerials or @ Indigo Jeans 's aerials.

He has 1 more frame of landing lag across the board. And you have 1 more frame of start-up and end lag on Fair, 2 more frames of start-up on Nair (Indigo says it's a frame 4 Nair which would honestly be a big deal if true) and 3 more end lag, 3 more end lag on Uair, and 1 more end lag on Dair.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Something is very wrong with either your aerials or @ Indigo Jeans 's aerials.

He has 1 more frame of landing lag across the board. And you have 1 more frame of start-up and end lag on Fair, 2 more frames of start-up on Nair (Indigo says it's a frame 4 Nair which would honestly be a big deal if true) and 3 more end lag, 3 more end lag on Uair, and 1 more end lag on Dair.

I double checked, I'm certain that my numbers are right. I can provide frame-by-frame gifs for the ones you mentioned if need be.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Shield graphics dont appear until F2 of the shielding animation. Ive mentioned this numerous times across the boards, which would explain the landing lag discrepancies. The frame the shield comes up is actually F2, the frame before that is F1, and the frame before THAT is the FAF.

Blazer is definitely super armour. I tested the frames for how long it lasts by testing against various attacks with hit-on frames I know.

I will double check NAir once I get back home but it's generally harder to get a lower incorrect frame count than a higher one.

 

[Toonation]

From around 5%-25% Fthrow --> RAR Bair will lock them if they didn't tech and give you a free Fsmash. Putting them really far away off stage for an easy edgeguard. I've taken a lot of stock in a couple seconds like this.

Wow lol thats funny. Roy has really good mix ups I'm really thinking of at the least making him one of my best pocket chars. Allthough it'll take awhile for me to know every matchup and relative priority like I do yoshi.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Shield graphics dont appear until F2 of the shielding animation. Ive mentioned this numerous times across the boards, which would explain the landing lag discrepancies. The frame the shield comes up is actually F2, the frame before that is F1, and the frame before THAT is the FAF.

I know this, I keep this in mind when checking all of my frame data.

Here's a gif of Roy's f-air.

I labelled frame 0 as the frame before he lands. Frame 1 is when he lands, he's still in landing recovery on frame 15, frame 16 he goes into shield. So 15 frames of landing recovery, not 16.

And here's Roy's n-air on hit. Frame 0 is during his double jump, Frame 1 is the first frame of n-air. As you can see it hits on frame 6.

I can add more if you want.

 

[RespectingOpinions]

According to this Marths nair actually has less landing lag than Roys. Huh.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

According to this Marths nair actually has less landing lag than Roys. Huh.

Actually Marth's n-air was reportedly buffed to have 3 frames less landing lag, so it would recover 1 frame faster than Roy's now. I haven't double checked myself so I haven't updated my sheet yet.

 

[RespectingOpinions]

That's what I said lol.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

Not sure if this is new, probably isn't, but I've noticed that when Roy, Marth, or Lucina use bair, it turns them mid-air.
In other words, if you input jump > back > A > A. you will do an bair and then a fair. Not sure if this is unique to Roy/Marth/Lucina, but I havent noticed it on any other characters.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

That's what I said lol.

...

...I feel really stupid. Somehow I read it as "Marth's n-air has more landing lag than Roy's."

Too much time frame counting and not enough time reading XD

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm assuming DED 2 is safer than trying to do anything out of DED 1 the same way Dancing Blade works in this game. It SEEMS to be correct, but I'd like confirmation as I can't measure it at the moment. If anyone has frame info for DED, that'd be great. If not, I'll try and come up with it later this week.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I'm assuming DED 2 is safer than trying to do anything out of DED 1 the same way Dancing Blade works in this game. It SEEMS to be correct, but I'd like confirmation as I can't measure it at the moment. If anyone has frame info for DED, that'd be great. If not, I'll try and come up with it later this week.

Roy's Double-Edge Dance has the exact same frame data as Marth's, in terms of start-up and recovery. He's a bit less safe on block compared to Marth though, due to higher hit-lag. But aside from the enders it's only one frame less safe.

Check my first post on this page, I've got the frames listed there.

 

[Vipermoon]

Shield graphics dont appear until F2 of the shielding animation. Ive mentioned this numerous times across the boards, which would explain the landing lag discrepancies. The frame the shield comes up is actually F2, the frame before that is F1, and the frame before THAT is the FAF.

Blazer is definitely super armour. I tested the frames for how long it lasts by testing against various attacks with hit-on frames I know.

I will double check NAir once I get back home but it's generally harder to get a lower incorrect frame count than a higher one.

His landing lag was consistently 1 frame less than yours though so does that mean if was you who got the shield stuff mixed up?

According to this Marths nair actually has less landing lag than Roys. Huh.

Why does that surprise you?

 

[Hellrazor]

Not sure if this is new, probably isn't, but I've noticed that when Roy, Marth, or Lucina use bair, it turns them mid-air.
In other words, if you input jump > back > A > A. you will do an bair and then a fair. Not sure if this is unique to Roy/Marth/Lucina, but I havent noticed it on any other characters.

Been a nice property to Marth/Roy bairs in every game. Useful for setting up off ledge, like dashing to edge, jumping, then doing a bair so you could grab the ledge in Melee. With OP ledge magnets and easy b-reverse nowadays it loses some value though.

 

[MaximalGFX]

Its possible, though a little difficult. Assuming moving right, Inputs would be (dash)...tap , let go of control stick, , and immediately .

Hey Seth, big fan of yours!

I just realised someone answer my question When you say: "(dash)...tap" do you mean perfect pivoting? Or another type of timing?

 

[Hellrazor]

Hey Seth, big fan of yours!

I just realised someone answer my question When you say: "(dash)...tap" do you mean perfect pivoting? Or another type of timing?

If this makes any sense, wavebounce is like "turnaround b-reverse" from what I can tell. Like when you do a pivot fsmash but input a b-reverse Flare Blade.

Step by step:

1. Dash one way
2. Press opposite, go into the slow turnaround anim
3. Input B-reverse to attack in the original dash direction

 

[MarioMeteor]

I just found a weird little situational combo. Fthrow > front roll > Ftilt.

 

[MaximalGFX]

If this makes any sense, wavebounce is like "turnaround b-reverse" from what I can tell. Like when you do a pivot fsmash but input a b-reverse Flare Blade.

Step by step:

1. Dash one way
2. Press opposite, go into the slow turnaround anim
3. Input B-reverse to attack in the original dash direction

But Neutral B won't come out during the turnaround animation...

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

Not sure if anyone found this but jab comes out very quickly after flare blade and often catches people off guard when they try to punish a whiffed flare blade.

 

[Hellrazor]

But Neutral B won't come out during the turnaround animation...

Blargh.

Set c-stick in button binds to attack.

Dash forward, and hit opposite of dash on c-stick and B at the same time to do it.

Not terribly useful TBH, since I have to claw it and lose c-stick smashes as a compromise.

EDIT: Swapped my controls around a bit (R -> grab, Z -> special) then it becomes really easy. Activated A+B smashes as well.

 

[Hellrazor]

Not sure if anyone found this but jab comes out very quickly after flare blade and often catches people off guard when they try to punish a whiffed flare blade.

Flare Blade is a fantastic bait. Lots of options to choose for punish reckless approaches.

Edit: damn double post, hit post accidentally. Meant to put this in my previous post.

 

[MagiusNecros]

How many frames does it take for Roy and his opponent to recover from a successful Jab 1?

 

[Comet7]

How many frames does it take for Roy and his opponent to recover from a successful Jab 1?

you can calculate how long it takes the receiver to recover with the hitstun formula. for roy, it would just be a manner of subtracting the amount of frames until the other character is hit from the total length of jab. you should probably keep freeze frames in mind too, but they are the same for both characters so they don't affect anything for either side.

what are the early autocancel windows for roy's aerials. since he has IASA frames before he reaches the ground from a short hop, he could do another aerial right before he lands to trigger the early autocancel and land with normal landing lag.

 

[RespectingOpinions]

Why does that surprise you?

Because Roy's nair feels so much safer and better than Marth's nair.

 

[Psyruby]

It's cause Roy falls way faster than Marth. Therefore when you land with his Nair you land a few frames before Marth normally would. Which causes him to be able to act faster.

 

[ROYKNOWER5000]

I actually discovered that Roy's sour spotted jab deals 4.8% damage instead of 4.5%.
In smash bros., when moves deal damage numbers that are not whole the game displays a whole number anyway. For Example, a move that deals 4.5% damage would display 4% on the first hit, and 9% on the second hit, when truly after the first hit 4.5% damage was dealt, which is why it added up to 9% afterwards. Anyway that is probably common knowledge to most smashers, but this is why it does not make sense to say that Roy's sour spot jab (the tip of his blade) deals simply 4.5% damage. When testing his sour jab here were my results for what the game displayed as the damage dealt:

1st hit: 4%
2nd hit: 9%
3rd hit: 14%

After the 2nd hit it is easy to conclude that the move deals 4.5% damage since the .5s would have added up, but how would you explain the 3rd hit? It appears as if another 5% damage was dealt. Well I tested the move a lot more, and here are results for further hits of his sourspotted jab:

1st hit: 4%
2nd hit: 9%
3rd hit: 14%
4th hit: 19%
5th hit: 24%
6th hit: 28%

The 6th hit is very revealing, because up to that point it seems that 5% damage is being tacked on after the first hit, but then why was the first hit 4%? Well I tested it even more:

1st hit: 4%
2nd hit: 9%
3rd hit: 14%
4th hit: 19%
5th hit: 24%
6th hit: 28%
7th hit: 33%
8th hit: 38%
9th hit: 43%
10th hit: 48%
11th hit: 52%

The same thing that occurred on the 6th hit has now occurred on the 11th hit, and now perhaps it's safe to say that 5 hits after the move appears to deal 4%, it will again deal 4%. The only explanation I could come up with is that the move deals 4.8%. Below I show you that as 4.8% gets added each hit, the game will display a given number:

1st hit: 4.8% game shows: 4%
2nd hit: 9.6% game shows: 9%
3rd hit: 14.4% game shows: 14%
4th hit: 19.2% game shows: 19%
5th hit: 24% game shows: 24%
6th hit: 28.8% game shows: 28%
7th hit: 33.6% game shows: 33%
8th hit: 38.4% game shows: 38%
9th hit: 43.2% game shows: 43%
10th hit: 48% game shows: 48%
11th hit: 52.8% game shows: 52%

Based on this, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the sourspotted jab deals 4.8%, but hey, I didn't test it even further, so I could be wrong, or I could be missing something completely, so let me know!

 

[Fenrir VII]

Which of Roy's attacks hit somebody hanging on the ledge?

I've confirmed dtilt and dair can... I believe fair can. I have whiffed an fsmash and a dsmash before, though, so I'm at a loss. Also not sure about Flare Blade.

 

[Chiroz]

I actually discovered that Roy's sour spotted jab deals 4.8% damage instead of 4.5%.
In smash bros., when moves deal damage numbers that are not whole the game displays a whole number anyway. For Example, a move that deals 4.5% damage would display 4% on the first hit, and 9% on the second hit, when truly after the first hit 4.5% damage was dealt, which is why it added up to 9% afterwards. Anyway that is probably common knowledge to most smashers, but this is why it does not make sense to say that Roy's sour spot jab (the tip of his blade) deals simply 4.5% damage. When testing his sour jab here were my results for what the game displayed as the damage dealt:

1st hit: 4%
2nd hit: 9%
3rd hit: 14%

After the 2nd hit it is easy to conclude that the move deals 4.5% damage since the .5s would have added up, but how would you explain the 3rd hit? It appears as if another 5% damage was dealt. Well I tested the move a lot more, and here are results for further hits of his sourspotted jab:

1st hit: 4%
2nd hit: 9%
3rd hit: 14%
4th hit: 19%
5th hit: 24%
6th hit: 28%

The 6th hit is very revealing, because up to that point it seems that 5% damage is being tacked on after the first hit, but then why was the first hit 4%? Well I tested it even more:

1st hit: 4%
2nd hit: 9%
3rd hit: 14%
4th hit: 19%
5th hit: 24%
6th hit: 28%
7th hit: 33%
8th hit: 38%
9th hit: 43%
10th hit: 48%
11th hit: 52%

The same thing that occurred on the 6th hit has now occurred on the 11th hit, and now perhaps it's safe to say that 5 hits after the move appears to deal 4%, it will again deal 4%. The only explanation I could come up with is that the move deals 4.8%. Below I show you that as 4.8% gets added each hit, the game will display a given number:

1st hit: 4.8% game shows: 4%
2nd hit: 9.6% game shows: 9%
3rd hit: 14.4% game shows: 14%
4th hit: 19.2% game shows: 19%
5th hit: 24% game shows: 24%
6th hit: 28.8% game shows: 28%
7th hit: 33.6% game shows: 33%
8th hit: 38.4% game shows: 38%
9th hit: 43.2% game shows: 43%
10th hit: 48% game shows: 48%
11th hit: 52.8% game shows: 52%

Based on this, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the sourspotted jab deals 4.8%, but hey, I didn't test it even further, so I could be wrong, or I could be missing something completely, so let me know!

Moves deal 1.05% damage in VS mode (which would make a 4.5 damage move deal 4.75 damage). It's a "freshness" multiplier. Did you remember to take that into account? (In case you use VS mode, if you used practice mode then disregard this post).

 

[Hellrazor]

Which of Roy's attacks hit somebody hanging on the ledge?

I've confirmed dtilt and dair can... I believe fair can. I have whiffed an fsmash and a dsmash before, though, so I'm at a loss. Also not sure about Flare Blade.

I think Flare Blade has a very small part of the hitbox that will hit people hanging on the ledge (won't keep them from grabbing it, but if they regrap go for it). I've definitely seen dsmash work.

TBH I don't think it's worth the effort to guard a ledge onstage as Roy. Trump them then smack them with a bair or trump them and if they regrab just Blazer stage-spike them.

 

[Casval]

So a fellow smasher on another forum I visit has reported that his ftilt connected twice with Bowser as Bowser attempted to grab him for a total of 26% damage.

Is it possible that some characters are big enough to where under certain circumstances both hitboxes connect?

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's possible a trade and a separate attack happened resulting in double damage.

 

[MaximalGFX]

I think Flare Blade has a very small part of the hitbox that will hit people hanging on the ledge (won't keep them from grabbing it, but if they regrap go for it).

Yup, done it before. Though it might only be the charged version of the move that have that hitbox, pretty sure uncharged Flare Blade don't reach bellow the ledge.

 

[Chiroz]

Yup, done it before. Though it might only be the charged version of the move that have that hitbox, pretty sure uncharged Flare Blade don't reach bellow the ledge.

It does. I tested this exact same thing yesterday on various chars.

Attacks that hit a char hanging on ledge:

D-Tilt
D-Smash
DED
Flare Blade (Uncharged, I do not know if hitbox becomes bigger as you charge but hitbox is actually quite decent even with the uncharged one)
D-Air
F-Air


The easiest one to land is D-Tilt. Probably the best one is D-Smash, but I think you can be going for any of D-Tilt, D-Smash or Flare Blade and warrant the same results. Flare Blade is particularly great if your opponent just lets you charge it a bit because he thinks it might not hit. If your opponent is stupid enough to keep hanging even after you SH then go for a D-Air spike I guess.

DED is pretty good for landing a sudden kill since it's a multi-hit which means the last hit will do the full amount of knockback (contrary to the other moves) and you're right at the edge but I think because of the opponent being outside the stage he might be able to DI out of it easily, needs more testing.

 

[Psyruby]

Guys, I know this isn't exactly frame data, but have you noticed that Roy's Ftilt almost clanks with everything. Today I clanked with a KO Punch, Ganon's Usmash, and Ganon's Fsmash. That's a very strange property, and I don't know what is causing it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Odd.

Might do more testing with it then.

Sour or sweet spot?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Testing in training and Roy's f-tilt clanking acts the same way as Link's f-tilt. Were the opponent's attacks cancelled out? 'Cause in training, Ganondorf's F-smash keeps going after you clank, while Roy stops.

 

[Psyruby]

Whoops, I double posted by accident. Sorry!

 

[Psyruby]

I clanked with the sweetspot of Roy's Ftilt with KO Punch, Ganon's Fsmash(I think it was late in the animation of the Fsmash), and Ganon's Usmash in the middle of it.

EDIT: My attack stopped, but both of us were unharmed. Tho in Little Mac's case, I was sent flying from a windbox, and it looked like his attacked continued.

So, I think I know how Roy's Ftilt works now.

EDIT2: It clanks with any attack ONCE, but the other attack continues, and if it has enough active frames after the first clank, then Roy is hit if the hurt and hitbox overlap.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

EDIT2: It clanks with any attack ONCE, but the other attack continues, and if it has enough active frames after the first clank, then Roy is hit if the hurt and hitbox overlap.

That's not Roy specific. Link's f-tilt acts in exactly the same way, for example.

I think it can happen with any normal, but clanking happens more often/is more noticeable when disjoints are involved.