The Sword of Seals - Roy Moveset + Frame Data (incomplete)

[MaximalGFX]

Footstool combos are worthless to me, and I haven't found any uses for jab locks.

From around 5%-25% Fthrow --> RAR Bair will lock them if they didn't tech and give you a free Fsmash. Putting them really far away off stage for an easy edgeguard. I've taken a lot of stock in a couple seconds like this.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Getting back to the dtilt discussion...

As I understand it (somebody correct me here), Frame advantage on shield = shield stun - (FAF - attack frame), where shield stun is a factor of move power, right?

So at the tip of the move, dtilt does 6.5%. Let's say that does 3 frames of shield stun.

So Frame advantage = 3 - (21 - 7) = -11

Considering the range is enough to outspace shield grabs and most other OOS options, the opponent is required to shield drop... so actual frame (dis)advantage is -11 + 7 = -4

I mean, somebody might have 4F moves that can close the gap, but from this, it sure looks like a spaced dtilt is safe on shield in most cases as a good poke..

 

[Vipermoon]

Looking at your FAFs @ Indigo Jeans are you sure you don't mean IASA on your FAFs? Marth's grab is IASA 29 so how can Roy have FAF 29 on grab if IASA is one frame less than FAF? I doubt these grabs aren't exactly the same.

 

[Hellrazor]

From around 5%-25% Fthrow --> RAR Bair will lock them if they didn't tech and give you a free Fsmash. Putting them really far away off stage for an easy edgeguard. I've taken a lot of stock in a couple seconds like this.

Interesting stuff. I'll have to give that a shot.

 

[Nabbitnator]

It may not work much. As i have not tried it in an actual match but it seems like after a grab release. Roy can follow the jump with an up b to catch and or kill his opponent.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

From around 5%-25% Fthrow --> RAR Bair will lock them if they didn't tech and give you a free Fsmash. Putting them really far away off stage for an easy edgeguard. I've taken a lot of stock in a couple seconds like this.

Wow I just tried this, it's hilarious 35% damage too.

 

[Doval]

Looking at your FAFs @ Indigo Jeans are you sure you don't mean IASA on your FAFs? Marth's grab is IASA 29 so how can Roy have FAF 29 on grab if IASA is one frame less than FAF? I doubt these grabs aren't exactly the same.

FAF and IASA are synonyms.

 

[FMHappy]

Sorry if its a dumb question, but are Roy's landing frames the same whether he SHNair or SHFFNairs?

 

[Chiroz]

Edit: NM I made a mistake because of the "fresh move multiplier" in VS mode.

Disregard this post.

 

[FMHappy]

Sorry if its a dumb question, but are the landing frames the same if you go either SHNair or SHFFNair?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well none of Roy's aerials autocancel from a short hop, so unless you are fastfalling from really high, then yes. Basically the landing frames given are the maximum amount of landing lag you can get from the aerials (this also applies to anything else with landing lag given, like Blazer).

 

[Dooms]

Do we have anything on the frames that Roy's side-b starts on? It feels the same as Marth/Lucina's so I'm going to assume it's between 6 and 8, but I'd like to have confirmation. ;_;

 

[Chiroz]

I have a question:

If Roy fast falls an N-Air and only hits with the first hit is it possible to true combo out of it at higher %s?

The first hit seems to have set knockback, I have been jabbed at low %s by my opponent but it seems that it does have scaling hitstun. This would mean that while the first hit has virtually 0 knockback there is a certain % where your opponent will be in more hitstun than your endlag thus allowing you to true combo into another attack.

I was just wondering what this % might look like. If it's close to the 100's we might have a good kill setup, if it's more than 200% then it's worthless, if it's around the 50% mark then this could become a really good combo starter.



I might be completely wrong too, so don't assume what I said is right either.

 

[Croph]

The one I mentioned works really well in For Glory tho plus its a lot easier to pull off. I don't see any down sides with this setup with certain characters and less room for wavebounce error.

Yeah, I seem to be more successful with this set-up, though of course the timing is still strict (guess I just need more practice).

How useful are wavebounce DEDs? Is it more or less the same as Marth's?

 

[Zorai]

I mean, somebody might have 4F moves that can close the gap, but from this, it sure looks like a spaced dtilt is safe on shield in most cases as a good poke..

Yes your entire calculation appears to be correct. But you're wrong here because it's not a spaced dtilt that's that safe, but a center-hit dtilt is. That's what I am assuming gives 3 frames shield stun. If you space it, it won't be a center hit and would probably barely have shield stun. So you do it up close. And it still has the shield push to have most characters need to drop their shield to punish. Plus generally most people just aren't fast enough to recognize you're hitting them with something pretty damn safe.

I am still waiting on @Gawain to confirm all the questions that you and I have brought up.

 

[Windstar120025]

Some one tell me why all his smashes kill at 70% at the tip? Does he have tipopers to?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Nah I think it has to be spaced. Otherwise they could just shield grab you (or other OOS option)

It's far from perfect, but my idea of shield stun is roughly half the damage the move does, so 3F comes from half of 6.5%. A center hit would then be 5-6F of shield stun.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Some one tell me why all his smashes kill at 70% at the tip? Does he have tipopers to?

They...uh... don't?

Not sure what you're seeing, but his attacks are noticeably weaker at the tip, with the potential exception of usmash, which seems to pull people into the fire regardless.

 

[MagiusNecros]

What does RAR mean?

 

[Doval]

Nah I think it has to be spaced. Otherwise they could just shield grab you (or other OOS option)

It's far from perfect, but my idea of shield stun is roughly half the damage the move does, so 3F comes from half of 6.5%. A center hit would then be 5-6F of shield stun.

Based on this post, the rule of thumb is damage/3 (with a minimum of 1), add 1 for attacks that do more than 15%.

So yeah, shield stun is very low in this game, almost every attack is very unsafe on shield. Unless you space yourself the opponent is guaranteed to punish. Even with spacing there's a good chance you can get punished when using laggy moves, but d-tilt has particularly low FAF and a chance of shield stabbing.

Note that the +7 frames for dropping shield only applies if the opponent has shielded for 11+ frames. You have to hold shield for 11 frames before you can drop it. If they blocked on the first 4 frames it's a perfect shield and they can counter immediately, and if they block on frames 5-10 they have to wait until frame 11 so it's an extra 1-6 frames on top of the 7.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Based on this post, the rule of thumb is damage/3 (with a minimum of 1), add 1 for attacks that do more than 15%.

So yeah, shield stun is very low in this game, almost every attack is very unsafe on shield. Unless you space yourself the opponent is guaranteed to punish. Even with spacing there's a good chance you can get punished when using laggy moves, but d-tilt has particularly low FAF and a chance of shield stabbing.

Ah ok good info.

So the actual dtilt shield stun is likely 2-3F for the tip hit. So the opponent has 4-5F to punish from dtilt's length away. I don't have a definitive list of moves, but I'm thinking that's going to be impossible for most of the cast.

 

[Fenrir VII]

What does RAR mean?

Reverse Aerial Rush (always thought that was a dumb term)

Run a direction, hit the opposite direction to turn around, then immediately jump and aerial.
So run right, turn left, SH bair towards the right.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Reverse Aerial Rush (always thought that was a dumb term)

Run a direction, hit the opposite direction to turn around, then immediately jump and aerial.
So run right, turn left, SH bair towards the right.

Yeah that is a dumb term. At least I know what it is now.

So basically Fthrow > Bair > Fsmash

Would have been much easier to understand.

 

[Hellrazor]

Yeah that is a dumb term. At least I know what it is now.

So basically Fthrow > Bair > Fsmash

Would have been much easier to understand.

Mentioning RAR describes your orientation. It's a dumb name but it means turnaround bair, not crossup bair. Fthrow, dash at them, spin then bair, rather than run past and bair.

Edit: been trying this out and it looks like it could be the start of something really badass. Still practicing stuff against CPUs, FGers and Smashladder-ers over time.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Roy's grab game is more scary than Marthcina's, imo, mainly because Roy actually has follow ups with more favourable KB that let's him chase. Marth and Lucina wish they had a grab game.

Idk if an opponent holding shield should be shield pressured, I just go for the grab and do Uthrow (meant to write Fthrow) or Dthrow, Dthrows knockback is comparable to Mario's Dthrow in terms of distance sent at low %.

Another thing I noticed with Dtilt, Roy can act out of dtilt ever so slightly faster than Marth can out of his. Frame difference is at most 2 frames faster.

Overall, Roy has the better frame data than Marth this time around (Roy's frame data in Melee was garbage while Marth's was OP). Sakurai designed him to trade a huge amount of range for damage and speed. The story behind that is the reverse grip and the way he folds his arm. It's meant to seem powerful and lagless but not held in a way that maximizes range. Overall a great character design. This wasn't a Dr. Mario or Lucina, Sakurai actually tried on this one.

What do you think of his sourspots this time around damage and kb-wise? Follow up ability wise?

 

[Vipermoon]

Roy's grab game is more scary than Marthcina's, imo, mainly because Roy actually has follow ups with more favourable KB that let's him chase. Marth and Lucina wish they had a grab game.

Idk if an opponent holding shield should be shield pressured, I just go for the grab and do Uthrow or Dthrow, Dthrows knockback is comparable to Mario's Dthrow in terms of distance sent at low %.

Another thing I noticed with Dtilt, Roy can act out of dtilt ever so slightly faster than Marth can out of his. Frame difference is at most 2 frames faster.


What do you think of his sourspots this time around damage and kb-wise? Follow up ability wise?

His sour spots are mostly well done knockback and damage-wise. I do think his sweetspots do too much damage in some cases, however. It's as if he isn't a Smash 4 character at all. In a game that does so little damage, Roy just does too much.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Finished frame counting for Roy, updated my frame data sheet accordingly. Let me know if I missed anything. I think the numbers match up with the OP but I also have all the stuff on block as well (sourspot and sweetspot).

The invincibility on his Blazer and his rolls I counted based on the character flashing, which I think is close to the actual invincibility but may not be exact. Same goes for counter active frames. He has an invincibility flash briefly on his Blazer though I'm not certain if that's actual invincibility or not, but I noted it for now.

 

[Psyruby]

Ah ok good info.

So the actual dtilt shield stun is likely 2-3F for the tip hit. So the opponent has 4-5F to punish from dtilt's length away. I don't have a definitive list of moves, but I'm thinking that's going to be impossible for most of the cast.

I think shield push isn't solely dependent on damage. Roy's tilts all do way more shield push on center hit than moves with those damage numbers. I've done Ftilt and dtilt on shield, and unless they perfect shield, you can't shield grab Roy even from a center hit. I've also noticed this with other characters too. Some character's moves just have more shield push.

 

[Zorai]

Note that the +7 frames for dropping shield only applies if the opponent has shielded for 10+ frames. You have to hold shield for 10 frames before you can drop it. If they blocked on the first 4 frames it's a perfect shield and they can counter immediately, and if they block on frames 5-9 they have to wait until frame 10 so it's an extra 1-5 frames on top of the 7.

Very informative. So basically, a spaced dtilt can be positive on shield if they shield during frames 5-8? LOL

Ah ok good info.

So the actual dtilt shield stun is likely 2-3F for the tip hit. So the opponent has 4-5F to punish from dtilt's length away. I don't have a definitive list of moves, but I'm thinking that's going to be impossible for most of the cast.

Yes that's right but they'll only have 2 frames to punsih if the dtilt is a center-hit. As calculated by LordWIlliam. So a center-hit dtilt is generally EVEN BETTER, taking into account the shieldpush as well.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Yes that's right but they'll only have 2 frames to punsih if the dtilt is a center-hit. As calculated by LordWIlliam. So a center-hit dtilt is generally EVEN BETTER, taking into account the shieldpush as well.

Actually the -2 vs shield drop is for the tip hit. -4 is the sweetspot.

Roy is overall worse on block when you hit the sweetspot, better if you hit the tip.

 

[Zorai]

Actually the -2 vs shield drop is for the tip hit. -4 is the sweetspot.

Wait so I'm not really getting that. How is that the case when the tip hit his less shieldstun?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Wait so I'm not really getting that. How is that the case when the tip hit his less shieldstun?

It has less shieldstun at the tip but Roy has less hitlag than the opponent. The opponent has 7, Roy only has 5, with 3 frames of shieldstun. The 2 less frames of hitlag is the equivalent of having 2 extra frames of shieldstun.

With the sweetspot hit, Roy has more hitlag than the opponent. The opponent has 9, Roy has 11, with 5 frames of shieldstun. The 2 additional frames of hitlag is the equivalent of having 2 frames less shieldstun.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Does Marth's sword behaves the same way? Ie, he's safer on shield than Lucina if he hits up close because the weak part of his sword grants him less hitlag? I remember hearing something like this around the competitive thread back in the 3DS days, it's pretty cool that Roy's tipped hits can be used on shield if this is the case

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Does Marth's sword behaves the same way? Ie, he's safer on shield than Lucina if he hits up close because the weak part of his sword grants him less hitlag? I remember hearing something like this around the competitive thread back in the 3DS days, it's pretty cool that Roy's tipped hits can be used on shield if this is the case

Yeah, Marth's the same way; safer on sourspot, worse on sweetspot.

Kinda funny that Roy is safer when playing the spacing game than Marcina when that's what Marcina is more built around.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think the big issue is that the closer you are, the more OOS options the opponent has... for instance in the Roy ditto, Roy can OOS blazer without having to go through the shield drop frames. In general, the farther away you can be, the better.

I'm satisfied with the outcome that a spaced dtilt is a safe poke on shield. That's how it plays out in practice, so it's good to have the data to back that up. Thanks to those who compiled all this.

 

[Zorai]

Roy can OOS blazer without having to go through the shield drop frames..

Really good to know. And while we're on that topic, does anyone know if a character goes through shield drop frames if they jump OoS? Or do they go straight into their jumpsquat frames?

 

[Fenrir VII]

they go straight to jump squat only

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay so Blazer doesn't have super armour? It is actually invincible like the character he was based on?

 

[Chiroz]

Okay so Blazer doesn't have super armour? It is actually invincible like the character he was based on?

No, it has super armor. I've definitely taken damage and still hit my opponent.

Really good to know. And while we're on that topic, does anyone know if a character goes through shield drop frames if they jump OoS? Or do they go straight into their jumpsquat frames?

You go into jumpsquat which has fewer frames than shield dropping but honestly not that many. The best thing about OoS jumping is that you can cancel jumpsquat into an Up-B or an Up-Smash frame 1. Both of those moves are quick and strong for Roy so his OoS options are actually decent.

 

[Zorai]

The best thing about OoS jumping is that you can cancel jumpsquat into an Up-B or an Up-Smash frame 1. Both of those moves are quick and strong for Roy so his OoS options are actually decent.

Interesting concept but I'm not sure too many people are fast enough to cancel their jump OoS if they wanted to lol. Most of the time you just take that commitment (to the jump) since you already started it, and then aerial them on reaction or something if you happen to be in danger.