The Starfox triangle

[Dust319]

Peach and Zelda were chosen because they are 3/4 of the time crucial parts to the plot.
Zelda- because she is the bearer of wisdom. Without her, the legend of the triforce would be incomplete. Most Zelda stories revolve around the Triforce, and their 3 bearers. The Hero, the princess, and the Dark King.
Peach- Most Mario game wouldn't have taken place without the kidnap of Peach.

Krsystal is not as important to the starfox franchise as Peach, or Zelda are to their respective franchise. Wolf is arguably considerably more important to Starfox.

Can I qoute for truth? Can I really do that? Ok.. QFT
The fact is that Krystal is relatively new to the Starfox franchise, and as of Command, her relationship with Fox is up for question.

That having been said, I think the Smash team decided to go for more of a Ryu, Ken, Akuma triangle, rather than a representative triangle like other series. Fox is typically the hero, he's your "Ryu". Falco is a pilot of similar or equal skill to Fox, so he's the "Ken." Wolf is the evil counterpart to Fox, so he's your "Akuma".

Come to think of it, I think Starfox is the only Nintendo series I'm aware of that is capable of this type of triangle, which makes it far more representative of the series of a whole. And that's my two cents.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Fox = Main protagonist of Starfox games
Falco = The Lancer, the right-hand man of the main protagonist
Wolf = Big Bad/main rival of the main protagonist
Krystal = Furry sex goddess/Girlfriend of main protagonist, minor character

One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong~

 

[Sandwich]

Kirby-DeDeDe-Meta Knight.
Sure DeDeDe is gay for Kirby but Meta Knight isn't always the bad guy.

 

[flyinfilipino]

If the game Krystal was introduced in was an excellent game (and agreed upon by many StarFox veterans), would you all still feel the same way?

Quoted again so I can get some opinions.

And I really like the whole Fox-Falco-Wolf thing going on. I wish Falco was just a little more different though.

 

[Bendu]

Krystal-A crappy character from a crappy game that was just more evidence to justify the selling of the game studio that made it. (Rare) Since then, the character has been used in games made by a mediocre game developer (Namco) to **** the Star Fox franchise even harder than Rare ever did.

Falco and Wolf-Remnants of two of the greatest Nintendo games of all time.

 

[HuskytheGeek]

IMO, Krystal shouldn't taint Brawl's roster considering the SF series was ruined because of her.

QFT. Star Fox Adventures wasn't a terrible game, but it was the first step in the downward spiral the Star Fox series has taken. You have no idea how pissed I was when she took Peppy's spot on the team in Assault.

Falco is a superior pilot to Fox and has been around since the first Star Fox game. Even considering of replacing him with Krystal should be considered to any TRUE Star Fox fan.

Wolf is Wolf. What else needs to be said? He has been a great villain and I have so many childhood memories of fighting his team in 64 (is it coincidence that Wolf and Leon were always the last ones standing?). We know how badass he is and he looks like he is going to be awesome to play as.

 

[VanillaMummy]

Don't you people realize that Sakurai loves the older games, not the newer ones? Sonic's moveset and level are based of his Genesis days, Pit, Ice Climbers, the songs he chooses, etc. Sakurai perfers older games and represents them in Brawl because they have more history.

Wolf and Falco represent the glory days of the StarFox franchise, and that's what Sakurai wants to represent. Including Krystal would have been a slap to the face of real StarFox fans, especially if it meant removing Falco like you suggest.

Falco is far more important then some "sidekick" to Fox. He's a rival of his on his own team, but in this rivalry you recognize through playing StarFox64 that they are actually good friends beneath it all. Comparing Falco to Slippy and Peppy further proves your ignorance about the franchise.

 

[Runeblade279]

Falco got in not only cause he was good and in melee...

But because he is and always has been *****in' awesome.

 

[flyinfilipino]

If the game Krystal was introduced in was an excellent game (and agreed upon by many StarFox veterans), would you all still feel the same way?

Quoting again to get anyone's opinion.

@VanillaMummy: Why do you think Sakurai decided to include Lucario and cut Mewtwo?

 

[Bendu]

Quoting again to get anyone's opinion.

Irrelevant. Star Fox Adventure sucks, and always will suck, so asking "what if's" is stupid and pointless.

And plus it's not a big stretch to assume that if the game was any good in the first place, it never would've had Krystal at all.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Irrelevant. Star Fox Adventure sucks, and always will suck, so asking "what if's" is stupid and pointless.

And plus it's not a big stretch to assume that if the game was any good in the first place, it never would've had Krystal at all.

Thanks for responding, even if it was in such a negative way.

So, any new additions to the Starfox team would be immediately looked down upon? Because they wouldn't have the same amount of personality that all the vets do?

 

[Crushed]

Irrelevant. Star Fox Adventure sucks, and always will suck, so asking "what if's" is stupid and pointless.

And plus it's not a big stretch to assume that if the game was any good in the first place, it never would've had Krystal at all.

Star Fox Adventures was a good game. And Krystal was meant to be one of the two main playable characters before Miyamoto told Rare that they should make the game Star Fox related.

 

[Bendu]

Thanks for responding, even if it was in such a negative way.

So, any new additions to the Starfox team would be immediately looked down upon? Because they wouldn't have the same amount of personality that all the vets do?

No, it's just an impossible to answer question. Who's to say what we'd think if SFA didn't suck a big one? Because it does.

And I just mentioned Krystal because she's actually a terrible character. If they actually introduced a good character, then maybe it would be a different story.

But they didn't introduce a good character, and they didn't make good games. So we don't like Krystal or either SFA. Get it?

Star Fox Adventures was a good game. And Krystal was meant to be one of the two main playable characters before Miyamoto told Rare that they should make the game Star Fox related.

But the game still would've sucked if it was Star Fox related or not. And yes, it was bad. Not just from a Star Fox fans standpoint, but just from a regular gamers standpoint. It was a subpar adventure game, and a disgrace not only to Star Fox, but to Rare.

It was a boring, unimaginative, and was honestly not well-designed, in scope and in gameplay mechanics.

 

[flyinfilipino]

No, it's just an impossible to answer question. Who's to say what we'd think if SFA didn't suck a big one? Because it does.

And I just mentioned Krystal because she's actually a terrible character. If they actually introduced a good character, then maybe it would be a different story.

But they didn't introduce a good character, and they didn't make good games. So we don't like Krystal or either SFA. Get it?

I think Krystal's a fine character, but with such a minor role in the recent games. And I personally liked StarFox Adventures. If StarFox adventures wasn't about saving Krystal, and the team telepath/Fox love interest was introduced in another game, would that still be such a bad idea?

 

[Bendu]

I think Krystal's a fine character, but with such a minor role in the recent games. And I personally liked StarFox Adventures. If StarFox adventures wasn't about saving Krystal, and the team telepath/Fox love interest was introduced in another game, would that still be such a bad idea?

What if's again?

There are many reasons why Star Fox Adventures is a bad game. You can have your own opinion. But I just think you have bad taste if you think it's a good game. So trying to convince me otherwise is useless.

Cause I think it was a bad game (which it is, by the way, because I'm right.)

 

[Crushed]

So, you're right because you're right.

That's totally logical and not circular reasoning at all.

 

[WolfCypher]

Okay, Bendu and everyone else who say so, what makes Krystal a bad character?

And I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. I'm curious to people's opinions.

To stay on-topic, while I see Krystal's role in the series making her more important, to say she has more "influenece" on the series the way Falco and Wolf do is ridiculous. Wolf & Falco have more prioity than Krystal. But it could also be the "veterans > newcomers" mindset people 'may'have. I've seen it with the Sonic series. If you weren't introduced in the 90s, then you (Shadow) automatically fail. Characters like Krystal stand a good chance to develop into major characters, but in her case, Falco and Wolf still out-weights her.

 

[Bendu]

So, you're right because you're right.

That's totally logical and not circular reasoning at all.

Actually, it's not at all. I'm right because it's my opinion. Which I pointed out in my post.

In my opinion, I as a huge fan of not only Star Fox, but adventure games and Rare, thought that Star Fox Adventures was a mediocre piece of crap.

And I'm right, and you're wrong. Cause it's my opinion.

How is that circular? It makes a lot more sense than asking "what if this or that?" in every post.

 

[Crushed]

Actually, it's not at all. I'm right because it's my opinion. Which I pointed out in my post.

In my opinion, I as a huge fan of not only Star Fox, but adventure games and Rare, thought that Star Fox Adventures was a mediocre piece of crap.

And I'm right, and you're wrong. Cause it's my opinion.

How is that circular? It makes a lot more sense than asking "what if this or that?" in every post.

Opinions do not work that way. And it's contradictory for something to be both mediocre and a piece of crap.

 

[Bendu]

Opinions do not work that way. And it's contradictory for something to be both mediocre and a piece of crap.

Opinions do work that way. My opinion can't be wrong cause it's MY opinion. And I think it's a piece of crap because it is mediocre. And mediocre from Rare when making a Star Fox game is unacceptable to me.

Also, shut up, you're not even adding anything to the conversation except for trying to dismantle my posts. If you're not even going to talk about anything then just leave me alone.

 

[Crushed]

Opinions do work that way. My opinion can't be wrong cause it's MY opinion.

No. They do not work like that. Really, I know lots of people think they do, but they don't.

 

[Bendu]

No. They do not work like that. Really, I know lots of people think they do, but they don't.

Actually, no, you're wrong. I'm entitled to my opinion and your entitled to yours. Neither of us are wrong except in each other's minds, and the only thing we can do is change each other's opinions. Which we won't because I'm sure of my opinions.

I can have my own opinion and you can have yours. You can be right too. I really dont' care. And the fact that you insist on this is actually pretty pathetic. Since it's not even a valid thing to argue about. Just go have your opinion, and I'll have mine. How hard is it to understand?

And did I not just tell you to shut up?

 

[Crushed]

Actually, no, you're wrong. I'm entitled to my opinion and your entitled to yours. Neither of us are wrong except in each other's minds, and the only thing we can do is change each other's opinions. Which we won't because I'm sure of my opinions.

I can have my own opinion and you can have yours. You can be right too. I really dont' care. And the fact that you insist on this is actually pretty pathetic. Since it's not even a valid thing to argue about. Just go have your opinion, and I'll have mine. How hard is it to understand?

And did I not just tell you to shut up?

Okay, I'll shut up.

When you enter high school and the teacher is telling you about informed opinions and whether or not an opinion can be invalid, you might not want to tell him to shut up too.

 

[Bendu]

Okay, I'll shut up.

When you enter high school and the teacher is telling you about informed opinions and whether or not an opinion can be invalid, you might not want to tell him to shut up too.

I'm in college. And informed or professional opinions is a totally different thing from everyday, personal opinions about taste.

We're talking about videogames.

Here's some examples.

Example #1:

Opinion #1: In my professional opinion, the victim was killed by blunt force trauma to the skull.

Opinion #2: In my opinion, the victim was killed by hugs!

Somebody's wrong, but let's see here:

Opinion #1: In my opinion, brussel sprouts are tasty and yummy!

Opinion #2: In my opinion, they suck and I don't like them.

Who's wrong?

In conclusion, we're talking about taste in videogames and nobody's wrong. Except you, because you think someone's taste in videogames can be truly "wrong." While I just think someone can have what is, in my opinion, "bad taste."

 

[Kittah4]

Krystal is somewhat of a wasted opportunity. While I'm happy that Wolf's A moves are almost completely different than Fox/Falcos, Krystal would have been a more interesting fighter. If you want staff/like action, you have to play Pit, and even then only a few of his moves have his swords connected (neutral A mashing, nair, bair, uar). If you want magic, you have to play Zelda, and for psychicness you have to be Ness or Lucas. And then whatever space animal traits she had were spread amongst Fox, Falco, and Wolf. Since a whopping zero characters in Smash have a staff, you'd think it wouldn't be difficult to come up with just one moveset, over the 5-6 swordy movesets. So yeah, we get the Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow of Star Fox.

 

[Isaac Brawler]

My opinion is that StarFox should not have 3 characters. Many other game series such as Metroid and Golden Sun are much much much more important than StarFox. I think Metroid should have more rep. such as Ridley and Dark Samus.

And Golden Sun is also more important than Earthbound, StarFox and Fire Emblem. Golden Sun became very popular, and didn't need the help of any Smash game (like Ness in SSB64 and Marth & Roy in SSBM). I don't understand why GS has the same representation in Smash as Kuru Kuru Kururin (exactly, that GBA game that no one knows)

If even Sakurai wanted to have 3 starfox characters, it should have been Fox Krystal and Wolf. Fox being the hero of the games, Krystal the love interest / the girl who needs to be saved, and Wolf the baddy of the game. Falco shouldn't be in, as he is as important as Peppy or Slippy. But Ridley and Isaac should have entered Brawl

 

[Machete]

My opinion is that StarFox should not have 3 characters. Many other game series such as Metroid and Golden Sun are much much much more important than StarFox. I think Metroid should have more rep. such as Ridley and Dark Samus.

And Golden Sun is also more important than Earthbound, StarFox and Fire Emblem. Golden Sun became very popular, and didn't need the help of any Smash game (like Ness in SSB64 and Marth & Roy in SSBM). I don't understand why GS has the same representation in Smash as Kuru Kuru Kururin (exactly, that GBA game that no one knows)

If even Sakurai wanted to have 3 starfox characters, it should have been Fox Krystal and Wolf. Fox being the hero of the games, Krystal the love interest / the girl who needs to be saved, and Wolf the baddy of the game. Falco shouldn't be in, as he is as important as Peppy or Slippy. But Ridley and Isaac should have entered Brawl

While I agree with both Isaac and Ridley should have been playable, no, Golden Sun isn't more important than Fire Emblem or Star Fox.

 

[Bendu]

While I agree with both Isaac and Ridley should have been playable, no, Golden Sun isn't more important than Fire Emblem or Star Fox.

I'd argue it's not more important than Earthbound, either. I personally don't know anyone who played Golden Sun. I know many people with very fond memories of Earthbound.

Not to mention the series is popular in Japan.

 

[Isaac Brawler]

While I agree with both Isaac and Ridley should have been playable, no, Golden Sun isn't more important than Fire Emblem or Star Fox.

Fire Emblem is now worldwide popular only because of Melee. If Marth and Roy never came into Melee, fire emblem would still be a Japan-only game. Golden Sun became the most important series of the GBA, and didn't need the help of any Smash Bros. game. So Golden Sun is more important than Fire Emblem.

StarFox was important with StarFox and StarFox 64. Since then, the games' quality has decreased. Out of 5 games, only two were masterpieces. Golden Sun has only two games, but both of great quality. Out of 2 games, 2 are masterpieces. So Golden Sun is more important than StarFox

 

[Machete]

I'd argue it's not more important than Earthbound, either. I personally don't know anyone who played Golden Sun. I know many people with very fond memories of Earthbound.

Not to mention the series is popular in Japan.

Well, although I'm a fan of the whole MOTHER series, I'm european so I didn't know if Earthbound was better known than Golden Sun in America.

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

Krystal would have been the better choice simply because she could have fought with that stupid staff thing from the Unmentionable Starfox game. That would have given more diversity to the characters. Plus, she was pretty cool in Command.

 

[Yuna]

So, you're right because you're right.

That's totally logical and not circular reasoning at all.

Funny, that's the argument you've been using all day in that other thread.

 

[Crushed]

Funny, that's the argument you've been using all day in that other thread.

Not really, I never said that my own opinion validates my arguments. That's kinda the whole point of circular reasoning, so I can't have possibly been doing it like that.

 

[Arteen]

I would have prefered Fox (with a Wolf alt costume), Falco, Krystal. Don't forget that Falco has appeared in every Star Fox title. Krystal wasn't in the earlier ones, and Wolf wasn't in the first or in Adventures. I don't think all four should be in, because Star Fox doesn't deserve that many characters, especially with other important series still without a playable character (e.g. Golden Sun).

Surely bad game design, poorly implemented ground-based combat and hiring 3rd party companies ruined the starfox franchise?

Not to mention a complete disregard for consistency of character behaviour and personality between games (e.g. Pigma).

I'd argue it's not more important than Earthbound, either. I personally don't know anyone who played Golden Sun. I know many people with very fond memories of Earthbound.

Not to mention the series is popular in Japan.

I would say that Golden Sun is more or less equal in importance to Earthbound/Mother. Mother is a finished series (the series creator has supposedly stated this) comprised of three popular, well-received RPGs, but only one every made it out of Japan (it made it to North America, but not Europe). Golden Sun is a continuing series (Camelot has confirmed that they want to make another and that Nintendo wants another) comprised of two critically-acclaimed, relatively popular RPGs both released internationally (Japan, North America, Europe). That at least puts them on relatively equal footing. Golden Sun should at least get one playable character before Mother gets three or StarFox gets four. Still, a few important Golden Sun characters use staffs, so it wouldn't be a stretch to see SF with four reps and GS with two, where a GS staff-user is more-or-less a clone of Krystal.

 

[WolfCypher]

My opinion is that StarFox should not have 3 characters. Many other game series such as Metroid and Golden Sun are much much much more important than StarFox. I think Metroid should have more rep. such as Ridley and Dark Samus.

And Golden Sun is also more important than Earthbound, StarFox and Fire Emblem. Golden Sun became very popular, and didn't need the help of any Smash game (like Ness in SSB64 and Marth & Roy in SSBM). I don't understand why GS has the same representation in Smash as Kuru Kuru Kururin (exactly, that GBA game that no one knows)

Wow...I should have stopped reading after paragraph one, but I didn't, now I can't unread it. To say Golden Sun is more important than StarFox...then I look at this guy's name, Isaac Brawler. I'm sensing bias here. If my username was Lucario's Baby's Daddy, I'd say stuff like "Lucario is more important to have in Brawl than representing the Kirby series."

StarFox is very popular in the US, Japan, and Europe. GS is only 'popular' in the US and Europe. It was a modest series of 2 titles in Japan and nothing more.

I know its your opinion (since that seems to be the theme of this thread, opinions and not accepting others), but hearing that GS > StarFox, I had to add my 2 cents.

 

[The-Judge]

There are the patterns of love interests and villains:
Mario, Bowser, Peach
Link, Ganondorf, Zelda

And the ones with the rivals and villains:
Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede
Fox, Falco, Wolf

Different patterns, it dont matter. But to add more new to the game and more females, Falco should have been dumbed for Krystal and Wolf. I got nothing against Falco, but Krystal would be cooler.

 

[mjaut]

ever thought of not having a triangle, but simply just adding khrystal? =)

 

[The-Judge]

ever thought of not having a triangle, but simply just adding khrystal? =)

Four Star Fox characters is too much.

 

[Bendu]

Not really, I never said that my own opinion validates my arguments. That's kinda the whole point of circular reasoning, so I can't have possibly been doing it like that.

I never used it to try to reinforce my argument. I was just saying that I think I'm right.

Do you want me to think I'm wrong? If that's what you really want I'll just think that everything I like isn't good because I'm wrong. Because that's apparently what you want.

Edit: To clarify I did give my reasons for not liking SFA. In essence I supposed "validating my argument." But the post that you tried to pull apart at the seams was a post in which I was basically just saying that we all have our own opinions and we all are going to think we're right. And I basically just stated that I think I'm right. Because naturally I will.

 

[Nuvia]

Fire Emblem is now worldwide popular only because of Melee.

That is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how popular it could have been, it's popular now, and that's all that matters. Your opinion is bias.