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The-Rest-of-the-Game Discussion

Cubelarooso

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
1,614
Location
[Hide my Location]
It’s always been said before that the team would, in the future, like to work on more aspects of the game. With the imminent release of the final Brawl (and Melee!) characters, I think it’s about time a discussion started on what exactly that should mean.


When it comes to 1-player, I really don’t care much. There are some obvious improvements Training Mode could use, but the fact that they haven’t happened suggests they’re not possible. Minimizing randomness would make other modes more attractive for speedrunners.


My main interest here is in items. I’ve always thought items change the game in some interesting ways, but there are some major flaws in implementation. In general, they currently discourage playing the game.

The most immediate flaw is spawning. It’d be nice if it could be set to work more like an fps, with spawns set to a timer and a specific rotation of points. Maybe even have the particular items spawned at each time constant and map dependant. With consistent spawns, players would be able and encouraged to learn and utilize them. Unfortunately, this is not currently possible, but it is a worthy goal.

After that, items still have the flaw of malfunctioning. Be it exploding when it shouldn’t explode, not exploding when it should explode, completely backfiring, or just doing nothing, it discourages the player from picking up the item, and thus from even having them on. With the obvious exceptions of pokéballs and assist trophies, items should act in a predictable manner. At the least, malfunctions should be toggleable, and preferably have some subtle indicator à la poison mushrooms.

The final flaw is that items are too homogenized. The optimal strategy regardless of item is currently just to chuck it at the opponent because it’ll probably kill them. With their primary functions completely overshadowed, items encourage mindless play. I think the banana peel is a good example of how items should be: the mobility and range provided by throwing are offset by low damage and knockback, making the stage control of a banana on the ground a practicable use. This should be exaggerated in the case of projectile and melee weapons (as well as capsules): throwing is just so good of an option that it is necessary that it deal nearly no knockback or damage – and thus have a greater threat of the opponent gaining control – if the other capabilities are to be considered.


As a last remark, would it be possible to make controller customization accessible from the “Names” menu?
 

Chzrm3

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
625
3DS FC
3926-5442-3703
Oooo, I think it'd be nice if they changed a few of the really dull items. Naturally this is just for fun, but what about the smoke bomb? It's such a weird, pointless item right now because it hardly does anything. What if they made the smoke take up a ton of space so that it could completely block out vision of that area?

I mean, why not, right? If you're playing with items on it's just for fun, and something crazy like that would be hilarious. And if people hate it they can turn it off and that's pretty much the same as it is right now, because the smoke bomb is such a pointless item right now anyway, haha.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
I especially like the idea of optimizing one player modes for speedrunning. I've been thinking they should do that for the longest time, myself. Obviously wasn't expecting it until more pressing tasks had been handled though.

Also, that smoke bomb idea is pretty neat. I think it's totally a good idea for P:M to move as much away from the other games as possible without sacrificing what makes them good, and clearly, smoke bomb is not part of that.
 

Jade_Rock55

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
1,047
3DS FC
4656-7001-2336
Can we make new items yet?Like can we bring back the items taken out from melee?
 

Kankato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
239
Location
SoCal
How about capsules that don't randomly explode, or explosives not detonating when attacked? Bombs spawning in the middle of a fray is the main reason I avoid bombs...
 

Trinsic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
78
Location
LA County
Being able to toggle items on/off in 1-player modes seems like a good decision, assuming it's possible. I'd still keep items on, but the option should be there.

I think I've said this before, but I'd like a stage select screen for the multi-man brawls. The mode would be more fun if you could play it on any stage instead of just battlefield.

Classic mode should have more variety. It gets old always fighting Donkey+Diddy or giant Yoshi. I don't know if I want the matches to be as random as they were in Melee's classic mode, but I certainly wouldn't mind it.
 

Vickyboi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
51
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
I asked some PMBR guys if it's possible to change "Carry Item" stickers for SSE.
Carry 'Curry'(Turbo) would be really cool in SSE! :D
 

br8k

Coolkid
Joined
Jan 21, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Charlottesville, VA
I asked some PMBR guys if it's possible to change "Carry Item" stickers for SSE.
Carry 'Curry'(Turbo) would be really cool in SSE! :D
Oh man, doing Roy Turbo combos on bosses sounds entertaining. Also using Turbo against large groups of enemies. Also lookin forward to totally abusing Roy's counter against hard hitting boss attacks.

A little more on-topic: Improvements for SSE would be cool, but I have no idea what kinds of improvements. Something to make it less tedious.
 

Vickyboi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
51
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
I'm gonna play through SSE when i get 3.0.
I'll tell you if it still crashes on some levels.

Gonna speedrun SSE someday!
 

Jade_Rock55

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
1,047
3DS FC
4656-7001-2336
I will also play SSE with 3.0 or at least try to,it will be a normal play though no special restrictions.
 

Vickyboi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
51
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
It breaks if you have two pokemon in your line up.

For some reason it freezes on The Lake (the level after Rayquaza) after the swirly cannon thingy.
You smash through the rock-blocks and then it freezes.
I can't remember if that's the end of the level or what happens after.

It freezes on one of ZSS levels aswell.
And when you try to fight some of the Shadows/clones in the maze.
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
It freezes because of SSE Bowser.
This also occurs when you fight Bowser in the great maze. Literally the only time Bowser doesn't glitch up the game in SSE is when DDD and bowser duke it out.
The more you know.
Also, it'd be nice if we could flip between Marth/Roy and Lucario/Mewtwo with the c-stick in SSE, but only once we reach the great maze. So yeah, petty request go!
 

Kiddy_Dong

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Messages
16
Here's my predictions for post- 3.0

3.1 - Brand new character added, balance tweaks, and most alternate costumes finalized.

3.5 - Two more characters added, no more after that. A few new modes added and more stages added using a fixed SSS expansion code. Balance tweaks, animation cleanup, etc. This is the last build to focus exclusively on vs. mode. All known engine bugs are resolved. A few new items added as well.

4.0 - Single player is completely revamped, fully fleshed out training mode introduced, the 3 characters introduced since 3.0 get major balance tweaks and polishing across the board. New modes for training techskill, and many offerings to the casual crowd are made. P:M now has an epic intro movie and customized menus.

4.1 - The "completed" Project M. Final balance/bug fixes regarding characters and engine bugs which may have arisen post 3.5. The PMBR hides their credits within a text file in the game somewhere. PAL support is finally acquired.

Post 4.1 - Only necessary bug fixes and obviously exploitable techniques are addressed in builds after 4.1, very infrequently.
 

Jade_Rock55

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
1,047
3DS FC
4656-7001-2336
3.0b has balance tweaks and bug fixes.

3.1 has a new character.

3.5 has a new character,maybe SSE

4.0 the last release with the last character and SSE gets fixed.

4.0b Fixes many bugs and is the last release of P:M

"b" releases in between these for balance or bug fixes.
 

The_Altrox

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
1,602
Location
Youngstown, OH
NNID
The_Altrox
The only thing I really want is complete balance of the characters. I know that it would be nearly impossible to bring everybody to the exact same level of play, but the closer they are, the better. Like, the lowest characters can still go toe to toe with the top characters and still pull out wins, even with disadvantages.
 

turtletank

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
498
I believe they are already at that stage of balance, though it's hard to tell so early into the meta.

SSE has real potential, if the team is willing to go beyond bug fixes then we could have a much more engaging solo experience. But obviously the engine will always be a priority for the team, so we'll likely not see anything in the next release.
 

Jade_Rock55

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
1,047
3DS FC
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I really only want bug fixes and the ability to use Marth and Roy and Lucario and Mewtwo like you can Samus and ZSS.
 

Jade_Rock55

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
1,047
3DS FC
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Wait will 3.0b or 3.1 come out next I don't get these update orders.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
2,300
Wait will 3.0b or 3.1 come out next I don't get these update orders.
An update comes out (EX: 3.0) and then a few months later the "b" version comes out with nothing new but major bug fixes (EX: 3.0b). a few months later (depending on the amount of content) we either get a .1 or .5 increase (EX: 3.1 or 3.5) and then we get the b version of that (EX: 3.5b) continuing from this example, we would get a .1 or .5 update depending on the amount of content in that update (EX: 3.6) then we get the b version of that one then we get the next whole number (EX: 4.0) and then the b version of that. (EX: 4.0b)
 

RIDLEY is too SMALL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
452
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Wait will 3.0b or 3.1 come out next I don't get these update orders.
Assuming that there will be a 3.0b, it would be released about a month or so after 3.0 and would basically just be bug fixes. The major PM updates are generally released every six months, so if the pattern continues, we'll get 3.1 or 3.? sometime over the summer.

EDIT: ninja'd
 

LeeYawshee

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Messages
904
Location
Florida
3DS FC
2621-3044-6895
Is it just me or do items spawn less than they did in Brawl? It feels like 1 item spawns and then 20 seconds later another one spawns. It's really boring especially since as someone mentioned earlier, items are really dull.

Also the next patch won't have a new character, maybe a new costume at best but it's mostly glitch fixing.
 

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
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18,966
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Livermore, the Bay repping NorCal Smash!
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Johnknight1
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Can we get the Smash 64 bumper pretty please=??? :grin:
Is it just me or do items spawn less than they did in Brawl? It feels like 1 item spawns and then 20 seconds later another one spawns. It's really boring especially since as someone mentioned earlier, items are really dull.

Also the next patch won't have a new character, maybe a new costume at best but it's mostly glitch fixing.
This was done because the item frequency that occurs regularly in Brawl (and even Melee) leads to massive amounts of lag and frame dropping.
 

LeeYawshee

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Messages
904
Location
Florida
3DS FC
2621-3044-6895
Can we get the Smash 64 bumper pretty please=??? :grin:


This was done because the item frequency that occurs regularly in Brawl (and even Melee) leads to massive amounts of lag and frame dropping.
Ah, that's fine then. A shame but fine.
 

JediLink

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
778
Location
QLD, Australia
My single player improvement wishlist in descending order of want:
  • Right now, SSE just doesn't work for me at all. I pick Mario or Kirby in the very first fight and it goes into a never ending "Now Loading". If SSE could somehow be made to be completely playable in P:M, that would be cool. For improvements beyond that, I could suggest perhaps giving the player a stamina meter instead of the usual percentage, and making enemies flinch more. It's not fair that enemies can just soak up hits while you go flying and bouncing around everywhere.
  • You know what would be awesome? If they improve/change the coin launcher. My god, that thing is terrible and boring and more terrible. Replacing it with Melee Lottery or even a simple shop would be awesome but probably hard/impossible. Maybe just make it constantly spawn trophies instead of enemies or something? That would reduce some of the tedium. I actually have all 290 trophies in Melee, but coin launcher is pretty much the main thing stopping me from attempting the same for Brawl.
  • Spice up Classic Mode a bit. One of my favourite things about Melee Classic Mode was the "Race to the Finish!" bonus game. So exciting and tense. In Brawl, there's nothing like that. It's boring.
  • The option to turn items off for single player modes, if that's at all possible.
Also, more characters, but that's for the clone engine request thread I guess.
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
My single player improvement wishlist in descending order of want:
  • Right now, SSE just doesn't work for me at all. I pick Mario or Kirby in the very first fight and it goes into a never ending "Now Loading". If SSE could somehow be made to be completely playable in P:M, that would be cool. For improvements beyond that, I could suggest perhaps giving the player a stamina meter instead of the usual percentage, and making enemies flinch more. It's not fair that enemies can just soak up hits while you go flying and bouncing around everywhere.
  • You know what would be awesome? If they improve/change the coin launcher. My god, that thing is terrible and boring and more terrible. Replacing it with Melee Lottery or even a simple shop would be awesome but probably hard/impossible. Maybe just make it constantly spawn trophies instead of enemies or something? That would reduce some of the tedium. I actually have all 290 trophies in Melee, but coin launcher is pretty much the main thing stopping me from attempting the same for Brawl.
  • Spice up Classic Mode a bit. One of my favourite things about Melee Classic Mode was the "Race to the Finish!" bonus game. So exciting and tense. In Brawl, there's nothing like that. It's boring.
  • The option to turn items off for single player modes, if that's at all possible.
Also, more characters, but that's for the clone engine request thread I guess.
* This would suck. Trust me, playing with launch and flinch resistance via stickers is the only thing that makes SSE playable, even on PRoject M where everyone is buffed. Subspace Project Missary is better then normal Project M just with not ****ty air dodges and fun characters. Also, enemies are pretty easy to combo/chain grab except for those effin Knight things, but it's manageable. And FREAKING AMAZING when using Captain Falcon. It just needs to not glitch up on half the stages.
* I don't think that's possible
* ^
* I think the only thing they can do is turn all items off on single play entirely. To each his own, but I'd prefer it.
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
I saw stamina gauge instead of the standard Smash percent.
And I'm saying that would suck hard. I heard this idea before, and I found that it just doesn't work. Stamina would be horrible.
Enemies are also easy to combo, it's just that hoards are a PITA, nothing you can do about that. Individual enemies are cake to exploit and 2/1 hit KO's on, at least the typical hoard enemies. After doing an intense run on 2.6, I think that SSE is likely not worth their time to "fix" outside of being playable.
 

JediLink

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
778
Location
QLD, Australia
I saw stamina gauge instead of the standard Smash percent.
And I'm saying that would suck hard. I heard this idea before, and I found that it just doesn't work. Stamina would be horrible.
Enemies are also easy to combo, it's just that hoards are a PITA, nothing you can do about that. Individual enemies are cake to exploit and 2/1 hit KO's on, at least the typical hoard enemies. After doing an intense run on 2.6, I think that SSE is likely not worth their time to "fix" outside of being playable.
Alright man. I'll trust your judgement. I haven't played SSE in a while, and I've never done it on anything higher than normal. You probably know better than me.
 

XxGUNZxX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
100
Location
Moorpark, CA
Number one thing on my list would be for a way to strike certain characters that you will get from picking random. There are so many fun characters but there are also a lot of characters that I don't have the desire to play and having to keep quitting games because I get them gets annoying and tedious. It would be awesome to make this Tag specific so you can have your own bank of characters to be chosen through random.
 

Blarg I'm Dead

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
105
Location
Colorado State University
I feel like a lot of fixing up single player is a lost cause. I like the fact that it selects training mode as soon as you click singe player though.

Speaking of toggles, turning off certain moves for characters would be nice. brb turning off shiek's fsmash. Would probably be a real pain to code however.
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
Really? Most of it works, All Star and Classic function entirely and all stadium modes do as well.
SSE is the only thing left and that was working before so I have complete faith they can make it work.
And I hope they do, Melee Fox on SSE is amazing.
 
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