Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[Sonicninja115]

It's the same here, It has to be some kind of very precise input at certain frames (like the Samus super wave dash in Melee) for each character. AND those inputs must vary greatly for each depending on the stage- it's prolly that Lylat has the largest frame windows for this tech and that's why we can do it there???

Lylats timing is less strict, however, I found my problem. To do the tech, it looks like this.

Frame 1: Drop backwards
Frame 2: Nothing
Frame 3: Nothing
Frame 4: Push into the stage
Frame 5: Push into the stage
Frame 6: Push into the stage
Frame 7: Jump
Frame 8: Jump

I believe it is in the two frames after pressing into the stage that you have to press jump.

See the hard part? In PP it is

Frame 1: Right
Frame 2: Left
Frame 3: Neutral

So we are going too fast, you have to pause for two frames to hit the Three-Five window and then hit jump immediately after. To the Lab!

 

[FooltheFlames]

Lylats timing is less strict, however, I found my problem. To do the tech, it looks like this.

Frame 1: Drop backwards
Frame 2: Nothing
Frame 3: Nothing
Frame 4: Push into the stage
Frame 5: Push into the stage
Frame 6: Push into the stage
Frame 7: Jump
Frame 8: Jump

I believe it is in the two frames after pressing into the stage that you have to press jump.

See the hard part? In PP it is

Frame 1: Right
Frame 2: Left
Frame 3: Neutral

So we are going too fast, you have to pause for two frames to hit the Three-Five window and then hit jump immediately after. To the Lab!

Very detailed report- Nice!

 

[Sonicninja115]

A new tech to look into Mewtwo mains!

A new way to PP, it is easier, but not easy. It allows more error then regular PP.

 

[meleebrawler]

So it seems using bair right as you drop from one of Battlefield's lower platforms is a good way to hit foes underneath.
I'd imagine this'd work well with teleport cancelling too.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So it seems using bair right as you drop from one of Battlefield's lower platforms is a good way to hit foes underneath.
I'd imagine this'd work well with teleport cancelling too.

I have been doing that every once in a while, it's annoying because you can't fastfall it.

It is pretty safe though right? I wonder if it is punishable, do you know?

 

[meleebrawler]

I have been doing that every once in a while, it's annoying because you can't fastfall it.

It is pretty safe though right? I wonder if it is punishable, do you know?

Since you're generally moving away it's quite safe, whether it sweetspots or not. I only see someone like Falcon punishing on a powershield.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Since you're generally moving away it's quite safe, whether it sweetspots or not. I only see someone like Falcon punishing on a powershield.

I have to fight Shiek and Fox a lot, so most of my game is don't get Dash-Usmash. The only reason I dislike fox is Usmash.

 

[TrueDimentioKirby]

Is there a Mewtwo discord group?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is there a Mewtwo discord group?

No, there is not. There where a couple of tries at a Skype group, but I think they failed.

 

[TrueDimentioKirby]

I think I need to make one. I plan to go to CEO, and I will be representing Mewtwo and Kirby, and I hope there's more things I could discover for both of them

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think I need to make one. I plan to go to CEO, and I will be representing Mewtwo and Kirby, and I hope there's more things I could discover for both of them

Go ahead! Just make a thread in the Mewtwo character thread, and announce it in the social.

Spoiler: Future additions

Edit:New stuff!

New combos are being discussed in the combo thread!

It is not possible to create the mix-up of either LCing or ledge snapping. However, it is possible to ledge snap from above.

To avoid ledge trumps, Mewtwo can do what fox and Falco can in Melee with their side b's. They can Aim their side bs so that they either hit the edge and go onto the stage, or pause at the edge for a second before grabbing the ledge. You can also press down to keep yourself from grabbing the ledge, but that can be dangerous.

Mewtwo can Side B to change his direction while recovering. This allows him to use Bair as well as Uair when recovering to the ledge. Uair is great for catching an opponent very close to the edge, while Bair goes far back.

A-landing options are Bair and Uair, each with a 2 frame window. Still worth learning!

Wall jump

U-Turn stuff

Fair to cancelled SB

Wall-jump for Bair landing

C-stick section

Nair-Nair on R.O.B.

Disable guide

Jab-Step-Utilt-Usmash beats proper DI

turn around with Confusion while recovering to gain access to Bair and Uair

OoS DJ SB, ground

OoS SB, Platform

Dtilt-Uair-Bair, 40-60% doesn't true but good link/chain

Dtilt-Uair-DJ Bair, 60+ doesn't true but good link/chain

Fast fall during Nair to get them out and follow-up

Boost grabbing

Airdodge frame traps

Dtilt-Dair

Dtilt-Dair/Fair 50/50

Kill set-ups. (Post in guide thread)

Nair-SB

Jab-locking guide. Bair/nair set-ups

Moveset analysis additions

Nair KB make it easier to understand

Dsmash hits some people below platforms.

http://puu.sh/lQoQn.gif

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...tagame-discussion.415950/page-6#post-20465532

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...tagame-discussion.415950/page-5#post-20345867

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...tagame-discussion.415950/page-5#post-20430323

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...tagame-discussion.415950/page-5#post-20456842

 

[Nobie]

So I decided to make a video showing why I set Mewtwo's c-stick to Smash. Long story short, it allows you more subtlety and variation when doing pivot f-smashes.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So I decided to make a video showing why I set Mewtwo's c-stick to Smash. Long story short, it allows you more subtlety and variation when doing pivot f-smashes.

I might make a thread talking about this. The pros and cons of each. Would it be okay for me to use your vid? I would give you full credit.

 

[Nobie]

I might make a thread talking about this. The pros and cons of each. Would it be okay for me to use your vid? I would give you full credit.

No problem.

And here's one more video. This is based on the "U-Turn" technique found by the One Smash guys at Tourney Locator. No talking this time, just cool sliding moves:

 

[Sonicninja115]

No problem.

And here's one more video. This is based on the "U-Turn" technique found by the One Smash guys at Tourney Locator. No talking this time, just cool sliding moves:

U-Turn is the tech where you crouch after pivoting right?

 

[Nobie]

U-Turn is the tech where you crouch after pivoting right?

You don't have to crouch, and I think in Mewtwo's case he actually travels further if you let go of the control stick than if you crouch.

Mewtwo has weird physics, but we all know that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You don't have to crouch, and I think in Mewtwo's case he actually travels further if you let go of the control stick than if you crouch.

Mewtwo has weird physics, but we all know that.

Thanks! I will rewatch the vid and try to learn it.

 

[Darklink401]

This has probably been discussed, but I recently saw Mew² do it a couple times vs a Megaman. Throwing an item allows Mewtwo to cancel his double jump, which I found really neat for getting back onstage safely, and for precision aerial throws (since it stalls Mewtwo's momentum for a sec)

I mean you can always do the super slide with Z + C-stick up, but that's situational ;p

 

[Sonicninja115]

This has probably been discussed, but I recently saw Mew² do it a couple times vs a Megaman. Throwing an item allows Mewtwo to cancel his double jump, which I found really neat for getting back onstage safely, and for precision aerial throws (since it stalls Mewtwo's momentum for a sec)

I mean you can always do the super slide with Z + C-stick up, but that's situational ;p

There has been a lot of Info that has been mentioned, but not looked into. DJ cancel Item toss has not really been looked into at all. And DICIT? has been on my to do list for awhile.

I should have a list of things that need to be looked into more, and if you have any questions please ask!

Edit: P2P makes great use of Wall-jump in this set. Mewsquared was doing something similiar last week, but he was using confusion instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On0lx6eyOME&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5SJeAVfLYcfcFVTCTR0w6kU&index=14

 

[Darklink401]

I think while they're situational, due to Mewtwo not inherently having an item, knowing applications to these things is useful :3

Also, speaking of walljumps (tho not really) I can't give exact frames but

It seems to me that if you time it right, letting go of ledge, double jumping, then cancelling double jump with confusion so you land perfectly onstage, has about as much cooldown as a regular getup, but with the benefit that it confuses people who are shield-camping the ledge as you try to recover, or even someone charging a smash attack or waiting to strike after you roll on/get up normally.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think while they're situational, due to Mewtwo not inherently having an item, knowing applications to these things is useful :3

Also, speaking of walljumps (tho not really) I can't give exact frames but

It seems to me that if you time it right, letting go of ledge, double jumping, then cancelling double jump with confusion so you land perfectly onstage, has about as much cooldown as a regular getup, but with the benefit that it confuses people who are shield-camping the ledge as you try to recover, or even someone charging a smash attack or waiting to strike after you roll on/get up normally.

That is something I have toyed around with. I personally prefer to fall back, DJ-Wall jump-B-reverse SB. It sends you directly on the stage without any landing lag, allowing an immediate shield.

Have you been able to do lagless ledge get-up? That is something that needs tested with Mewtwo and I can only do it on Lylat.

 

[Darklink401]

That is something I have toyed around with. I personally prefer to fall back, DJ-Wall jump-B-reverse SB. It sends you directly on the stage without any landing lag, allowing an immediate shield.

Have you been able to do lagless ledge get-up? That is something that needs tested with Mewtwo and I can only do it on Lylat.

It works especially well if you do the immediate walljump on walled stages with the double flick.

Also, being one of the people that first heard about and tested the lagless ledge getup, back when it was thought to be Marth-exclusive, I can say that I find it interesting Mewtwo can even do it, albeit on Lylat. It may be impossible on other stages, but I can try it out...

 

[Darklink401]

Being one of the people that initially heard of and tested the lagless getup (back when it was thought to be Marth-exclusive) all I can see is, it's weird that Mewtwo can do it at all, even on Lylat, and I'd be surprised if he could do it on other stages.

That being said, isn't ledge jump > DJ cancel SB a much easier, albeit not AS good version of that, since you can do anything then, out of shield?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Being one of the people that initially heard of and tested the lagless getup (back when it was thought to be Marth-exclusive) all I can see is, it's weird that Mewtwo can do it at all, even on Lylat, and I'd be surprised if he could do it on other stages.

That being said, isn't ledge jump > DJ cancel SB a much easier, albeit not AS good version of that, since you can do anything then, out of shield?

MSC tested it with Mewtwo. It is even shown in the vid.

We might be able to activate SB and Shield at the same time, allowing it to immediatly cancel into shield. This might be a really fast get-up option. Especially when used with other mix-ups such as ledge jump-Confusion or Teleport.

Note: If you press SB and Shield at around the same time, it won't cancel. However, as soon as you hit the ground it will shield.

 

[Darklink401]

MSC tested it with Mewtwo. It is even shown in the vid.

We might be able to activate SB and Shield at the same time, allowing it to immediatly cancel into shield. This might be a really fast get-up option. Especially when used with other mix-ups such as ledge jump-Confusion or Teleport.

Note: If you press SB and Shield at around the same time, it won't cancel. However, as soon as you hit the ground it will shield.

It's super fast, only downside is that the brain capacity needed to do anything out of it gives me a headache (literally I woke up with a headache,lol)

to do an upsmash it'd be like ledge jump > immediate doublejump > shadow ball immediately + buffer shield > as soon as you land, input jump and cancel jump with c-stick up

All in like less than a second xD

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's super fast, only downside is that the brain capacity needed to do anything out of it gives me a headache (literally I woke up with a headache,lol)

to do an upsmash it'd be like ledge jump > immediate doublejump > shadow ball immediately + buffer shield > as soon as you land, input jump and cancel jump with c-stick up

All in like less than a second xD

This is going to be a fun couple of days!

Sorry for the double post but it wouldn't let me quote this in an edit.

Interesting little quirk: if you land and use a special move on the same frame, the grounded special apparently takes priority over landing lag. Bowser can't aerial autocancel his SHAD, but he can avoid the landing lag by buffering a B move and the grounded version will come out, allowing him to SHAD into Fire Breath, Flying Slam, Whirling Fortress, or Bowser Bomb.

Could this work with Mewtwo? Bair and Uair cancelling might be nice.

And then there is just the idea of landing with a cancelled SB charge. Allowing instant shield depending on autocancels and FAF.

Also, SH Confusion has no landing lag and reflects a good amount of projectiles, but only picks up larger characters.

 

[Darklink401]

Sorry for the double post but it wouldn't let me quote this in an edit.



Could this work with Mewtwo? Bair and Uair cancelling might be nice.

And then there is just the idea of landing with a cancelled SB charge. Allowing instant shield depending on autocancels and FAF.

Also, SH Confusion has no landing lag and reflects a good amount of projectiles, but only picks up larger characters.

what about DJ cancel confusion?

 

[meleebrawler]

what about DJ cancel confusion?

You still get the aerial bounce of Confusion.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You still get the aerial bounce of Confusion.

Does the bounce reset if you grab the ledge?

 

[meleebrawler]

Does the bounce reset if you grab the ledge?

Everything is always refreshed after grabbing a ledge, except ledge invincibility.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Everything is always refreshed after grabbing a ledge, except ledge invincibility.

Thanks! However, I was playing young with my brother the other day and Yoshi's Up B wasn't replenished.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qribZFXtCuE
This is a really cool thing I found while messing around in training mode. Could Mewtwo have any use for this in a real match or will it just be completely useless?

 

[Darklink401]

That title is very misleading xD

I mean I wouldn't wanna stale my upthrow so much...

And they can just jump out/attack

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't suppose we have a percent range for guaranteed follow-ups from landing before the final hit of N-Air, do we? I know that frame synching (I refuse to call it "frame canceling") gives a lot of extra frame advantage by landing when hitlag is supposed to happen, but I'm looking for on-the-fly, no-setup numbers.

Doing a shorthop buffered airdodge -> buffered N-Air gives you two hits and doesn't frame synch, so that seems good for reliable testing. I tested weight extremes at 0% before the N-Air and found that it has at least +8 frame advantage against Mewtwo (N-Air -> U-Tilt combos) and at least +6 on Bowser (D-Tilt follow-up works but U-Tilt does not). Mario also gets hit by D-Tilt but not U-Tilt, leading me to believe it's probably +7 on him (Mewtwo doesn't have a Frame 7 ground attack, making the midway point hard to test).

Thing is, N-Air linking hits have fixed knockback, and fixed knockback is still affected by Rage:

As a result, you can likely get better follow-ups with increased Rage values. Landing N-Air -> D-Tilt could become landing N-Air -> U-Tilt -> U-Smash, landing N-Air -> Jab -> U-Smash, or N-Air -> jump-cancel U-Smash. Things like that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't suppose we have a percent range for guaranteed follow-ups from landing before the final hit of N-Air, do we? I know that frame synching (I refuse to call it "frame canceling") gives a lot of extra frame advantage by landing when hitlag is supposed to happen, but I'm looking for on-the-fly, no-setup numbers.

Doing a shorthop buffered airdodge -> buffered N-Air gives you two hits and doesn't frame synch, so that seems good for reliable testing. I tested weight extremes at 0% before the N-Air and found that it has at least +8 frame advantage against Mewtwo (N-Air -> U-Tilt combos) and at least +6 on Bowser (D-Tilt follow-up works but U-Tilt does not). Mario also gets hit by D-Tilt but not U-Tilt, leading me to believe it's probably +7 on him (Mewtwo doesn't have a Frame 7 ground attack, making the midway point hard to test).

Thing is, N-Air linking hits have fixed knockback, and fixed knockback is still affected by Rage:

As a result, you can likely get better follow-ups with increased Rage values. Landing N-Air -> D-Tilt could become landing N-Air -> U-Tilt -> U-Smash, landing N-Air -> Jab -> U-Smash, or N-Air -> jump-cancel U-Smash. Things like that.

The follow-ups we know are FF Nair-Usmash/Jab/Dtilt/Utilt/Nair.

If you pop them up correctly, Nair can actually true combo directly into Usmash.

@Raykz is testing Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair combos and such and is posting his findings in the patch thread.

I do know that Nair will true combo into Bair/Fair from about 15-60%, but only the final hit of Nair has unset KB and everything else will true at any percent. Though people probably haven't tested with Rage yet. I hope this helps!

Thanks for labbing this!

Edit: Preliminary Fair Combos!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRg8roC95Dk

Edit: Confusion analysis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzh36bC24tM

Ledge guarding tactic, first throw an aerial small SB, then while landing, throw a grounded one. This cuts off most of their options, and if they jump over the second SB, fair works quite well. It is a rather awesome set-up, and I haven't found a downside yet. This is mainly for gimping people if you aren't really close to the ledge. You can use the SB's to approach a bit and keep them occupied, before punishing their option. Remember, if they get hit by an SB, they cannot grab the ledge for 50 frames. What do you think?

Darklink401 i almost managed to get the wall jump-Usmash. I missed the JC input and just got an Uair. I will try to upload a video of it in the next few days.

Also, I am going to look into staling a lot.

 

[Browny]

Just posting my idea of a match-up spread

I have experience vs like, 1/3 of the characters here offline with people who main them, most are online. Those that I don't play I base my rating on what I have seen when watching tournaments.

I believe that Mewtwo is not the sort of character who has strong match-ups either way, like most characters in this game. Those characters he can style on easily and also end his stock pretty quickly and those who cal wall him out, struggle to get past his walls when he is in the lead. As such, I only rate characters as even, advantage or disadvantage. Characters in even may very well have an advantage (either way) but it is not significant enough to the point that I feel like a 2/3 set win is anywhere near as likely.

Match-up spreads should really only focus on a 2/3 or 3/5 set scenario since plenty of characters can get wins with random lucky reads or gimps but pulling them off in 2/3 matches is too unreliable.

Advantage:
Even:
Disadvantage:

 

[LRodC]

Just posting my idea of a match-up spread

I have experience vs like, 1/3 of the characters here offline with people who main them, most are online. Those that I don't play I base my rating on what I have seen when watching tournaments.

I believe that Mewtwo is not the sort of character who has strong match-ups either way, like most characters in this game. Those characters he can style on easily and also end his stock pretty quickly and those who cal wall him out, struggle to get past his walls when he is in the lead. As such, I only rate characters as even, advantage or disadvantage. Characters in even may very well have an advantage (either way) but it is not significant enough to the point that I feel like a 2/3 set win is anywhere near as likely.

Match-up spreads should really only focus on a 2/3 or 3/5 set scenario since plenty of characters can get wins with random lucky reads or gimps but pulling them off in 2/3 matches is too unreliable.

Advantage:
Even:
Disadvantage:

Can you explain some of these?

Why does he lose to Mario (agree) but win against Dr. Mario (not sure)? Is the recovery/mobility that significant versus the power? What about Ness being a negative MU but Lucas being positive? I've personally struggled more with Lucas, so I'd like to hear your input on this. Also, what Mii movesets are assumed for the match ups? All of them? They're relatively unexplored so I'm undecided on them.

 

[ShadowKing]

Can you explain some of these?

Why does he lose to Mario (agree) but win against Dr. Mario (not sure)? Is the recovery/mobility that significant versus the power? What about Ness being a negative MU but Lucas being positive? I've personally struggled more with Lucas, so I'd like to hear your input on this. Also, what Mii movesets are assumed for the match ups? All of them? They're relatively unexplored so I'm undecided on them.

If I may I belive Mewtwo and Mario is equal because they both can rack up damage very quickly with the current patch release but might be a bit in mewtwos favor because mewtwos buff's can help him get quicker kills.

For doc:Bad recovery and heavy but doc can fight back plus can kill Mewtwo at a lower precent then Mewtwo, but Mewtwo can gimp doc with bair because all you have to do is carry him off

 

[Sonicninja115]

Just posting my idea of a match-up spread

I have experience vs like, 1/3 of the characters here offline with people who main them, most are online. Those that I don't play I base my rating on what I have seen when watching tournaments.

I believe that Mewtwo is not the sort of character who has strong match-ups either way, like most characters in this game. Those characters he can style on easily and also end his stock pretty quickly and those who cal wall him out, struggle to get past his walls when he is in the lead. As such, I only rate characters as even, advantage or disadvantage. Characters in even may very well have an advantage (either way) but it is not significant enough to the point that I feel like a 2/3 set win is anywhere near as likely.

Match-up spreads should really only focus on a 2/3 or 3/5 set scenario since plenty of characters can get wins with random lucky reads or gimps but pulling them off in 2/3 matches is too unreliable.

Advantage:
Even:
Disadvantage:

I find that Cloud is a toss-up MU, we have many things against him, but if he gains control of the match we get rekt. He has a bit too much in his favor for it to be even IMO.

I agree with the disadvantage list, and the advantage list is sorta obvious, except for a few unexplored characters.

What do you guys think about people trying to edge guard Mewtwo? I find it quite hilarious when I turn it around and gimp them.

 

[Browny]

Well to start with there is a very significant difference in kill power between their upsmashes due to the strange angle of Dr Marios, doc has his trump card with dthrow-fair that requires him to land a grab at that narrow % range... Mewtwo isnt the sort of character who gets grabbed easily by someone with slow ground speed and low grab range.

I feel that Mewtwo should live significantly longer vs Dr Mario on average and also escape docs combos easier while trashing his recovery. I know dr marios recovery goes a lot further than people give it credit for, but his downb is like a 60 frame move that doesnt protect him from shadowball or dair, you should be able to punish it.

In a 2/3 set scenario, I would expect a Mewtwo to land a number of gimps offstage and just play excessively obnoxiously vs Doc, camp him to hell and never let him get in your range.

Sonicninja115 Shield camp him. I was playing vs a cloud main here recently online for a while and he commented how difficult it was to deal with that. If he had limit charged and I had shadowball, there was almost no way he could kill me if I was sitting in shield. Eventually one shadowball gets through his defenses and hes offstage, losing limit.

Clouds biggest strength is the threat he can put on the enemy with limit and kill you at ridiculous %'s for the tiniest mistake. Mewtwo happens to have a kill move that doesnt require you to get within punishable range from cloud, forcing him to rely on fair or dash attack to try and get kills as he needs to kill via an approach, not as a punish.

Remember, he cant kill you early if you dont do something stupid in close range.