Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[meleebrawler]

I will add your info as well as a few of my own thoughts to the OP, I just wish we had more people discussing the tings in the second OP... hmmm. I just want more input then 2 people. well, nothing in the OP is set in stone. What do you think of the areas I have filled in so far?

Well for ftilt you can hit people hanging from the ledge by angling it downwards easily, which is probably the safest thing to do at low percents if the opponent is playing ledge games with you. And angled upwards can be a decent defence against jump-ins. Though it is at it's heart a defensive move; don't underestimate it's use in pivots.

Dsmash actually has the slowest startup of his smashes. Using it at the wrong time can easily result in the move being interrupted, so try to keep the opponent at a reasonable distance before you start it. It's mainly used to punish reckless dash-ins along with dtilt as well as reckless rolls more so than attacks.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Well for ftilt you can hit people hanging from the ledge by angling it downwards easily, which is probably the safest thing to do at low percents if the opponent is playing ledge games with you. And angled upwards can be a decent defence against jump-ins. Though it is at it's heart a defensive move; don't underestimate it's use in pivots.

Dsmash actually has the slowest startup of his smashes. Using it at the wrong time can easily result in the move being interrupted, so try to keep the opponent at a reasonable distance before you start it. It's mainly used to punish reckless dash-ins along with dtilt as well as reckless rolls more so than attacks.

earlier today I was fighting an opponent who would not spot trying to approach me, even though he was playing link. I eventually just started spamming Dsmashes until he ran into one, it worked and I won the match. I started spamming when we were both at kill percent and all of his kill options apparently required him being close.

 

[meleebrawler]

In hindsight with the upcoming patch our findings will have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Also, maybe we should try using confusion to face away from the stage when coming back so that can bair people on the ledge as well as uair?

 

[Sonicninja115]

In hindsight with the upcoming patch our findings will have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Also, maybe we should try using confusion to face away from the stage when coming back so that can bair people on the ledge as well as uair?

Wait, the patch has been confirmed? or is it just common sense? I am pretty sure that there is going to be more then just the stage released on the 30th but I don't know...

 

[meleebrawler]

Wait, the patch has been confirmed? or is it just common sense? I am pretty sure that there is going to be more then just the stage released on the 30th but I don't know...

Well you never know.

Talking about bair again (I swear it's one of Mewtwo's best moves as it is; giving it faster startup would make Sheik's fair seem tame), performing it while rising seems to be a good way to confirm into aerial Confusion at middling to low percents. Heavy characters also seem susceptible to getting hit by this move multiple times.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Well you never know.

Talking about bair again (I swear it's one of Mewtwo's best moves as it is; giving it faster startup would make Sheik's fair seem tame), performing it while rising seems to be a good way to confirm into aerial Confusion at middling to low percents. Heavy characters also seem susceptible to getting hit by this move multiple times.

You saw the combo video with nairo? Yeah, Bair works as well as dtilt, even Utilt might work. And the double hit of Bair will true combo at some Percents, but it Definitly works best on heavy characters.

 

[meleebrawler]

You saw the combo video with nairo? Yeah, Bair works as well as dtilt, even Utilt might work. And the double hit of Bair will true combo at some Percents, but it Definitly works best on heavy characters.

Even if you don't get anything else after two bairs, that's about 26% if you get the sweetspot both times.

Looking at what you've put down for it, I'd add that the giant hitbox isn't just good for edge guarding (very effective stage-spike, especially after a missed nair), it also can challenge almost any aerial with proper timing and spacing, even things like Link's dair.

Uair I see in general as the "safe" juggle option. It's fast, while doing surprisingly good damage for said speed and the wide range lets Mewtwo avoid retaliation pretty easily, but aside from some specific circumstances like using it close to the ground or while rising from a double jump, it doesn't lead to anything else really.

And dair isn't a tail whip, it's a kick. Even in Melee.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Dair isn't a tail whip? Wow, I am out of touch, I could've sworn he used his tail. And thanks for the additions, I will add those. I completely forgot to put stage spiking down in Bair's uses. I actually use it quite alot as my brother plays Fox. Uair is a good tool, but it is not like Shiek's fair, it has limited uses, but those uses are pretty good.

I was just typing out my thoughts as they came to me so I am not surprised I made a few mistakes.

 

[TheAxeWarrior]

Godlike combo!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChxDRzgKs0

 

[Sonicninja115]

Godlike combo!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChxDRzgKs0

It doesn't work. It isn't an infinite. The Nair to jab can combo at certain Percents but not into another Nair. The best option would be Nair-Jab-Dtilt-DJ Uair-Fair. The combo itself is easily escapeable and the fsmash doesn't combo either, sorry.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Godlike combo!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChxDRzgKs0

Now let's see that in a real match or against a lvl9 CPU.

Because everything will work in training mode.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Now let's see that in a real match or against a lvl9 CPU.

Because everything will work in training mode.

Your an plainly see Lucario in the standing position, the only time Nair actually combo'd into jab was the third time. There is no doubt that it does not work.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Your an plainly see Lucario in the standing position, the only time Nair actually combo'd into jab was the third time. There is no doubt that it does not work.

Exactly. Lucario could have shielded and punished accordingly. Or just double teamed.

 

[meleebrawler]

As cool and effective landing big combos or strings with Mewtwo can be, it's important not to underestimate his smaller, simpler combos either. Not many characters in this game can claim to do more than 10% damage with every aerial.

 

[Sonicninja115]

As cool and effective landing big combos or strings with Mewtwo can be, it's important not to underestimate his smaller, simpler combos either. Not many characters can claim to do more than 10% damage with every aerial.

My favorite, go to combos are dtilt-fair and Nair-Bair/fair. With these and other small pokes during neutral, I can usually get my opponent to kill percent. I find that combos such as dtilt-uair-fair are more of a style KO as it is so fiendishly hard to pull off mid-match.

 

[meleebrawler]

My favorite, go to combos are dtilt-fair and Nair-Bair/fair. With these and other small pokes during neutral, I can usually get my opponent to kill percent. I find that combos such as dtilt-uair-fair are more of a style KO as it is so fiendishly hard to pull off mid-match.

Not to mention unsafe, as it burns your double jump.

Tonight I just ran into a competent player on For Glory who ran through quite a few top tiers. Far from a complete rundown as it was just one match each but I was able to hold my own against them.

-Sheik was the hardest, as she's pretty much the worst enemy of those who get their best stuff from punishes. I lost solidly but was still able to dodge some of her kill reads (throw to vanish or uair) for a while.

-Fox was pretty close, though I lost due to a SD from getting carried away attacking his recovery and waiting to long to teleport.

-Zero Suit Samus I won. Dodging her grab does wonders, and Mewtwo doesn't mind nair spacing too much thanks to his own solid range.

-Mario I only briefly got started before being disconnected but I did manage to get 60% on him before he even hit me solidly once. Mewtwo's range advantage is pretty big here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Godlike combo!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChxDRzgKs0

I'm mad I clicked thd link. *sigh*

For combos with mewtwo I tend to go for whatever. There's more stuff I want to work into my combo game and things that I will incorporate into it.

Depending on the character, percents and what I started it with I'll go for pretty extended combo strings. If I catch some ones double jump I'm going for another fair and just carrying them with fair.

 

[TheAxeWarrior]

It doesn't work. It isn't an infinite. The Nair to jab can combo at certain Percents but not into another Nair. The best option would be Nair-Jab-Dtilt-DJ Uair-Fair. The combo itself is easily escapeable and the fsmash doesn't combo either, sorry.

Aww, that's a bummer.

 

[meleebrawler]

A thought that occurred to me: how much would Mewtwo benefit from setting C-stick to specials?

 

[Sonicninja115]

A thought that occurred to me: how much would Mewtwo benefit from setting C-stick to specials?

Interesting... I think it would come with multiple upsides, but there would also be downsides.
Upsides-
I like lists
Easy aerial movement
Increased control over teleport and SB

Downsides-
Lists take awhile to make
No C-stick aerials
No quick smashes/tilts.

I think tilts are better, but C-stick specials would definitely be something to at least try out.

 

[meleebrawler]

Interesting... I think it would come with multiple upsides, but there would also be downsides.
Upsides-
I like lists
Easy aerial movement
Increased control over teleport and SB

Downsides-
Lists take awhile to make
No C-stick aerials
No quick smashes/tilts.

I think tilts are better, but C-stick specials would definitely be something to at least try out.

Meh, guess it's a preference thing. Though the only smash Mewtwo has that really wants the speed is usmash.

Edit: I think now's a great time for me to analyze his throws.

Fthrow: Quite possibly Mewtwo's most deceptively useful throw. It may not combo or kill like so many other renowned throws, but knocking the enemy such a large distance away regardless of percent is really a huge boon for him that lets him compose himself or charge shadow balls against otherwise very aggro opponents. It inflicts very respectable damage too, tied with some for highest damaging throw in the game, which is just icing on the cake. To say nothing of the disruption potential in doubles.

Bthrow: A pretty standard bthrow all things considered. Use mainly when close to the edge for edgeguarding or possibly KOing. This will likely be the preferred KO throw against enemies resistant to vertical KOs. It can be used to gain space like fthrow, but the former is usually preferred for that purpose.

Uthrow: The myth, the legend, uthrow. One of the most powerful vertical killing throws in the game, rivalled only by Charizard's. While it should generally be reserved and kept fresh for that purpose, it can also be a good way to start juggles against opponents with poor landing options.

Dthrow: Essentially a Confusion that doesn't have set knockback. Useful for some mindgames, and at higher percents can be used to prop opponents onto platforms.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Meh, guess it's a preference thing. Though the only smash Mewtwo has that really wants the speed is usmash.

Edit: I think now's a great time for me to analyze his throws.

Fthrow: Quite possibly Mewtwo's most deceptively useful throw. It may not combo or kill like so many other renowned throws, but knocking the enemy such a large distance away regardless of percent is really a huge boon for him that lets him compose himself or charge shadow balls against otherwise very aggro opponents. It inflicts very respectable damage too, tied with some for highest damaging throw in the game, which is just icing on the cake. To say nothing of the disruption potential in doubles.

Bthrow: A pretty standard bthrow all things considered. Use mainly when close to the edge for edgeguarding or possibly KOing. This will likely be the preferred KO throw against enemies resistant to vertical KOs. It can be used to gain space like fthrow, but the former is usually preferred for that purpose.

Uthrow: The myth, the legend, uthrow. One of the most powerful vertical killing throws in the game, rivalled only by Charizard's. While it should generally be reserved and kept fresh for that purpose, it can also be a good way to start juggles against opponents with poor landing options.

Dthrow: Essentially a Confusion that doesn't have set knockback. Useful for some mindgames, and at higher percents can be used to prop opponents onto platforms.

Thanks for analyzing the throws, it is great having a second view.

Also, I was practicing LC this afternoon and I found some cool things.

If you Full Hop you can teleport down and you will immediately LC. From the main platform of BF you can do it and then LC on another platform. I am trying to think of a way to make a video using only the Wii U, you can post videos directly from the Wii U to YouTube right? I have some stuff I want to show and a video would be much easier.

 

[Browny]

Bthrow: A pretty standard bthrow all things considered. Use mainly when close to the edge for edgeguarding or possibly KOing. This will likely be the preferred KO throw against enemies resistant to vertical KOs. It can be used to gain space like fthrow, but the former is usually preferred for that purpose.

Uthrow: The myth, the legend, uthrow. One of the most powerful vertical killing throws in the game, rivalled only by Charizard's. While it should generally be reserved and kept fresh for that purpose, it can also be a good way to start juggles against opponents with poor landing options.

nuuuuuuuuuu

Bthrow is is the 4th strongest sideways kill throw in the game and does decent damage, its not really a 'standard' bthrow, its in the top 7.5% of bthrows.

uthrow is THE most powerful vertical killing throw by a significant margin and when used on the ground, is stronger than charizads uthrow when landing on a platform.

People really overrate charizards uthrow. It got buffed yes, but it kills about 21% later than mewtwos uthrow.

 

[Sonicninja115]

nuuuuuuuuuu

Bthrow is is the 4th strongest sideways kill throw in the game and does decent damage, its not really a 'standard' bthrow, its in the top 7.5% of bthrows.

uthrow is THE most powerful vertical killing throw by a significant margin and when used on the ground, is stronger than charizads uthrow when landing on a platform.

People really overrate charizards uthrow. It got buffed yes, but it kills about 21% later than mewtwos uthrow.

Thanks! I haven't done much research into his throw so I am not surprised I got some info wrong, is there anything else you noticed or more info I could add? because if there is I really want to know!

 

[meleebrawler]

nuuuuuuuuuu

Bthrow is is the 4th strongest sideways kill throw in the game and does decent damage, its not really a 'standard' bthrow, its in the top 7.5% of bthrows.

uthrow is THE most powerful vertical killing throw by a significant margin and when used on the ground, is stronger than charizads uthrow when landing on a platform.

People really overrate charizards uthrow. It got buffed yes, but it kills about 21% later than mewtwos uthrow.

It doesn't really matter how strong bthrow is (unless you reach Ness levels), you still use it in the same way as a lot of others like it; when your back is turned to a ledge to start an edgeguard or possibly KO, or because it's the most damaging. Except here it's not. It's a solid throw for sure but somewhat situational in the face of fthrow.

And no matter how big the gap between Mewtwo's and Zard's uthrows may be, doesn't change the fact that his is the only one that even comes close.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwo's Uthrow sends the foe straight up. Zard's does not.

That is one of the core reason's why it will be better.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey, I found out that late DA can true combo into Fair and Uair, I will check this out more to see for how long, but I think late DA might have set KB. Here's to hope!

 

[meleebrawler]

Sonicninja115 , I hope you do consider adding my thoughts to the throw descriptions, because some of the descriptions seem a bit unfair (namely fthrow and dthrow). You gotta look further than just the combo/killing utility or how much damage they do to see how useful they are.

For example, I know you have stage control listed in fthrow's uses, but the description really just doesn't convey how well it fulfills that function. What isn't there to like about two seconds to charge a shadow ball with no risk of interruption and/or easily gaining a positional advantage, getting aggro opponents out of your face, all regardless of the opponent's percent, and doing decent damage on top of it all?

Dthrow may be his weakest throw, but in a strange way the lack of use can be considered a strength when it comes to mindgaming. If you've been fthrowing the opponent the whole game, or have been successfully pressuring the opponent, they'll be more likely to make a bad move when you unexpectedly dthrow them instead. And as I've said before it can be used to place opponents on relatively low platforms, which can easily lead to a followup if they don't tech.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sonicninja115 , I hope you do consider adding my thoughts to the throw descriptions, because some of the descriptions seem a bit unfair (namely fthrow and dthrow). You gotta look further than just the combo/killing utility or how much damage they do to see how useful they are.

For example, I know you have stage control listed in fthrow's uses, but the description really just doesn't convey how well it fulfills that function. What isn't there to like about two seconds to charge a shadow ball with no risk of interruption and/or easily gaining a positional advantage, getting aggro opponents out of your face, all regardless of the opponent's percent, and doing decent damage on top of it all?

Dthrow may be his weakest throw, but in a strange way the lack of use can be considered a strength when it comes to mindgaming. If you've been fthrowing the opponent the whole game, or have been successfully pressuring the opponent, they'll be more likely to make a bad move when you unexpectedly dthrow them instead. And as I've said before it can be used to place opponents on relatively low platforms, which can easily lead to a followup if they don't tech.

Ohh, sorry. I haven't been able to do a lot of updating recently. I have to do a lot of writing in school so I am often just tired of writing. I will add that soon though. I think I have a couple of hours that I can spend updating and refining this thread tomorrow. But yeah, I have definitely been lax in updating the thread with comments. I have recently taken a liking to dthrow as it is a good lead up into a kill option if the opponent doesn't jump away and if they do you can still easily punish. I need to add a bit more in the throws section and a few others, I did it all at once so you might notice the analysis get shorter as the list goes on.

Edit: As you might notice I was rambling, the past couple of days have been crazy as I have discovered a number of new things to look into and add to the OP. LC being one of them.

 

[Browny]

It doesn't really matter how strong bthrow is (unless you reach Ness levels), you still use it in the same way as a lot of others like it; when your back is turned to a ledge to start an edgeguard or possibly KO, or because it's the most damaging. Except here it's not. It's a solid throw for sure but somewhat situational in the face of fthrow.

And no matter how big the gap between Mewtwo's and Zard's uthrows may be, doesn't change the fact that his is the only one that even comes close.

Nope

Charizard doesnt have the second strongest uthrow... he has the fourth.

It goes like this

#1 Mewtwo
14% gap
#2 Lucas
5% gap
#3 Olimar
5% gap
#4 Charizard


It's really not hard to test these things before talking about 'facts' you know :/

 

[Sonicninja115]

Nope

Charizard doesnt have the second strongest uthrow... he has the fourth.

It goes like this

#1 Mewtwo
14% gap
#2 Lucas
5% gap
#3 Olimar
5% gap
#4 Chairzard


It's really not hard to test these things before talking about 'facts' you know :/

Agreed, but for me I am usually testing other things and am too lazy to do it myself. Thanks! Also, Lucas has the second best Uthrow? really? it kills at 140% that is really good... and he has a strong Bthrow to boot, no other character like that...

What about Bthrow? I would like to put this info in the OP.

 

[Browny]

Bthrow goes

#1 Ness
31% gap LOL
#2 Lucas
1% gap
#3 Villager
2% gap
#4 Mewtwo

Its honestly quite an even split between Lucas, Ness and Mewtwo for the best killing throw power. Ness can easily get the lowest % kills, but he does lose to Lucas and Mewtwo when he is on the wrong half of the stage.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Bthrow goes

#1 Ness
31% gap LOL
#2 Lucas
1% gap
#3 Villager
2% gap
#4 Mewtwo

Its honestly quite an even split between Lucas, Ness and Mewtwo for the best killing throw power. Ness can easily get the lowest % kills, but he does lose to Lucas and Mewtwo when he is on the wrong half of the stage.

Thanks, I am doing another update to the OP right now so it should be up in the next hour to half-hour!

 

[Sonicninja115]

does anyone the percent that Mewtwo's throws will kill at? it would make it alot easier to compare.

 

[Browny]

It changes with rage and stage vertical blast zones so its hard to come up with exact numbers.

 

[Sonicninja115]

No worries, I will just put a base number and tell people it is not exact. Like Ness at 100%. Thanks for your help!

 

[Metallinatus]

Agreed, but for me I am usually testing other things and am too lazy to do it myself. Thanks! Also, Lucas has the second best Uthrow? really? it kills at 140% that is really good... and he has a strong Bthrow to boot, no other character like that...

Well, Mewtwo is just like that.... just inverted (Up is stronger than Lucas', but Back is weaker).
Also, I think that the center of Battlefield in training mode (no rage) is just the perfect place to get kill percentages of everything.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Well, Mewtwo is just like that.... just inverted (Up is stronger than Lucas', but Back is weaker).
Also, I think that the center of Battlefield in training mode (no rage) is just the perfect place to get kill percentages of everything.

there should be a sarcasm button, and You also have to factor in DI to find the base death percent. it is just not worth coming up with an exact number that people will continuously argue over, thanks for your input though!

 

[Metallinatus]

there should be a sarcasm button, and You also have to factor in DI to find the base death percent. it is just not worth coming up with an exact number that people will continuously argue over, thanks for your input though!

Ok, I didn't get the sarcasm this time, I'm usually good at that
And yes, DI can change things, but that doesn't make.... not worth to come with those numbers.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Ok, I didn't get the sarcasm this time, I'm usually good at that
And yes, DI can change things, but that doesn't make.... not worth to come with those numbers.

People would argue over them, I guess I will make an estimate, like no DI or rage and with DI on BF.