Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[DrizzyDrew]

There's been a thread for that for a while. Most common problems still discussed are neutral air being wonky, and forward air being far too slow and relatively weak. It needs to be a legitimate KO move if it's going to have that much startup, none of this 140% crap.

Making his combos more consistent would be important as well.

I have no complains about Fair. It has good range for the neutal and does kill better as an off stage tool. Using it like falcos f-air and using his jump height to your advantage can take your opponent off guard. I think all of us Ninjas agree...Nair should change.

 

[Jaguar360]

I have no complains about Fair. It has good range for the neutal and does kill better as an off stage tool. Using it like falcos f-air and using his jump height to your advantage can take your opponent off guard. I think all of us Ninjas agree...Nair should change.

N-air is fine as a combo move, but having a faster aerial that hits in front of Greninja would be amazing. I would also appreciate just having less lag on it so that fast fall n-air SDs don't happen so much.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

RANDOM THOUGHT.
Ever since tourney mode got announced I really want to try setting up an all Greninja tournament. Of course this would take organization and I would love to host it. Maybe this sunday? EST? We might need the help of skype and the skype group, any thoughts? might you be able to help out? @elusiveTranscendent

 

[Snackss]

You can't use it like Falco's forward air; Falco has a slower fast fall as well as far more active frames on his forward air, so it's easier to punish airdodges or drop off the stage and still easily make it back. Falco's can even hit people just before they grab the ledge. Greninja's isn't a particularly spectacular off-stage tool because it can't punish airdodges on reaction. I feel like Greninja's main off-stage strength is the number of options and moves he can perform off-stage as well as gimp or cause SD's.

I still think Greninja's combo game should be more consistent. Especially neutral air.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Hey all, let me introduce myself.

I've been a Greninja main since the game came out. I knew he'd be one of them ever since his trailer. I've just never had the time to come to this social thread. I'm not much of a competitive player, but I'm learning. I don't plan on winning some huge tournament, but all I want to do is keep improving my game with my 5 mains. I look forward to meeting the rest of you!!!

P.S., I LOVE drawing, despite not being the best artist out there.

 

[Snackss]

Some made it to top 16 but lost overall to Rain and Nietono. Not surprisingly.

At least Japan has top players with Villager, Pit, and Peach instead of the constant stream of Sheik, Mario, Fox, Luigi, and Sonic you seem to get on American tournaments.

 

[Guimartgon]

Sheik is incredibly overwhelming to more than half of the cast. I wonder if something will be done about that.

 

[Snackss]

Something will happen eventually. It's dumb that they constantly handle her with kid gloves and do negligible changes, considering the destruction Greninja got and the thorough beating given to Diddy Kong.

 

[Jaguar360]

Sheik's a difficult character to nerf tbh. The best thing they could do to tone down the matchup issue would be to give Needle Storm more endlag along with shortening the hitbox of or removing the intangibility from Bouncing Fish.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I don't see the point in encouraging nerfs, when we SHOULD be moving to buff the lower tier characters and make them more viable.

 

[Jaguar360]

I don't see the point in encouraging nerfs, when we SHOULD be moving to buff the lower tier characters and make them more viable.

I agree and all, but characters are going to need a lot of buffs in order to have an advantage against Sheik. Nerfs are a necessity sometimes, even if we don't like them.

I mean, I think other characters at the top like Sonic, Diddy, Pikachu, Fox, etc. are fine the way they are (ZSS's Flip Jump may be a bit overtuned, but I wouldn't mind if she remained the same), but Sheik's matchup spread is just ridiculous and some of her tools are too good. This is coming from a guy whose favorite move in the game is likely Bouncing Fish.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Like I said in my introduction post, I'm not too competitive, so I'm not really into all this mumbo-jumbo, but I'd agree that Sheik needs some nerfs, from what I've been hearing everyone saying about her. Personally, I can't use her all too well, so I don't really care how she is on a tier list, but with how everyone's been talking about her, she clearly needs a few nerfs, with lower tier characters (whoever they are) receiving minimal buffs as to not change the game too much, but enough to where certain match ups are more equal and fair.

 

[Snackss]

I don't see the point in encouraging nerfs, when we SHOULD be moving to buff the lower tier characters and make them more viable.

This gets thrown around very frequently, and it doesn't actually make any sense. Sheik is an outlier even among the best characters. Characters who we consider to be perfectly balanced still lose to Sheik. So what do we do? Do you buff them too? Then the characters who lose to them get destroyed even harder. All that does is further skew matchup spreads. Sheik isn't the best because everyone else is underpowered; she's the best because she's blatantly better than everyone else. No one's frame data, range, and movement in combination can compare at all. No matter how much you buff, for example, Bowser, Sheik's forward air and needles are still going to destroy him. Unless you buff Bowser in a way that makes him less like Bowser and more like Sheik, buffing Bowser is just going to make him better against everyone who isn't Sheik, because of Sheik's inherent advantages.

There are still characters who need buffs, but the problem is primarily that Sheik is too strong, not that everyone else is too weak.

But still buff Greninja and Falco and Lucas thank you okay.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I probably should've worded that better, as nobody seems to understand what I meant. YES, nerfs are needed, but if we focus too much on the nerfs, than what about the other characters who severely need the buffs? We need BOTH, yet it seems we are mostly in the "nerf dis!" mindset, rather than a mindset which encourages both buffs for low tiers, and nerfs for somewhat broken high tiers.

 

[FullMoon]

The only character that needs nerfs is Sheik and maybe ZSS. The others are fine, most people really only want to see Sheik nerfed.

The patches have consistently done more buffs than nerfs and I'm sure the trend will continue. I only Sheik to receive nerfs like Diddy did, making her less overpowering and more reasonable.

 

[DD_]

I thought the platforms on BF make the U-smash a lot worse because when the opponent gets hit by the first hit, they'll go downward into the platform and bounce off, preventing me from getting the second hit. That's usually why I tried to pick stages with less platforms, but perhaps I was incorrect. Otherwise, the choices for the other stages make a lot of sense.

Going back to this, do any stages have any favorable platform layouts for tech chase up smashes or anything like that? I've had some luck on the lylat middle platform but that might have just been luck

The lucario's saw this today and thought we should pop a link down for you guys.

http://www.pokemoncenter.com/Substitute-Plush-Collection/b/12591957011?searchSize=60

Pokemon center is now offering more substitute swag. uwu

Ugh I want that substitute shirt so bad! Too bad they don't ship to Aus

 

[Guimartgon]

Oh I completely agree. If we keep nerfing characters sm4sh will become an awful game.. As far as nerfing sheik(which no matter how many buffs happen, should still be a thing), I think it's as easy as reducing hitstun / increasing ending lag in her Dthrow to make it instead of a 50/50 something more on the lines of Greninja's Dthrow, a tool that can net you a stock with a good read. That or changing the angle at which Fair sends you but that would destroy sheik.

 

[Snackss]

Why is Whimsicott associated with Substitute?

I really don't think nerfing characters is a concern. Diddy nerfs went slightly too far and Greninja nerfs went much too far, but other than that nerfs have been far from the main issue. It's characters who need attention not getting it (Mewtwo and Samus), and characters who are just sort of inferior in their current state and playstyle even if they aren't technically bad (Falco, some others I haven't played enough probably).

 

[Guimartgon]

Whimsicott gets +1 priority from any non direct damage move(AKA Substitute, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Taunt, Tailwind...) Whimsicott sees play in UU as a somewhat gimicky Pokemon that annoys bulky offense and deals quite well against stall teams. It is also a lot of fun in Ubers to form a Ground/Fairy core with something like Groudon-P to make Zekrom users have to guess what move to lock themselves into. So essentially Whimsi hides behind a sub, throws seeds and annoys people and it's amazing.

I guess you're right, but honestly a good chunk of the characters would need massive buffs to make the sheik MU not ridiculous.

 

[Snackss]

I mean we shouldn't be concerned about them focusing on nerfs over buffs. Nerfing Sheik is still pretty important right now and will really start to even up the metagame. And it doesn't matter if somebody else becomes #1, because unless there are enormous buffs that we wouldn't see coming, nobody is going to match up to current Sheik. What matters is that there should be compelling "objective" reasons to pick characters other than the #1.

 

[Makani]

 

[Starman147]

So on an unrelated topic, where do you think Greninja stands in doubles? I personally think he's a good choice generally because of his ability to sneak in a generally chaotic match (such as by using shadow sneak or having your teammate activate substitute as a strategy), but I don't know if he has any large weaknesses in doubles.

 

[Snackss]

I haven't played enough doubles and generally don't use Greninja in it. Just Fox for the ez up smash punishes so I can act like I'm contributing.

 

[DD_]

So on an unrelated topic, where do you think Greninja stands in doubles? I personally think he's a good choice generally because of his ability to sneak in a generally chaotic match (such as by using shadow sneak or having your teammate activate substitute as a strategy), but I don't know if he has any large weaknesses in doubles.

I've been playing a decent chunk of Doubles with a Partner who is dedicated sonic and we find the freedom to move is a huge asset. Getting in the extra sneaks is nice but the main thing i find is I'm able to throw out so many more up smashes. He has a greater kill potential I find if you have a team mate who can cause distractions just due to the knock back on usually unsafe things like sneak and substitute.

I noticed Some opts for Sonic in doubles currently though, and was running a double sonic team at that JP Major earlier this week.

 

[Jaguar360]

I've been playing a decent chunk of Doubles with a Partner who is dedicated sonic and we find the freedom to move is a huge asset. Getting in the extra sneaks is nice but the main thing i find is I'm able to throw out so many more up smashes. He has a greater kill potential I find if you have a team mate who can cause distractions just due to the knock back on usually unsafe things like sneak and substitute.

I noticed Some opts for Sonic in doubles currently though, and was running a double sonic team at that JP Major earlier this week.

Is Sonic's back throw able to setup into a Greninja U-smash in doubles? That would be great if so. Sounds like a good team of speedy assassins.

 

[DD_]

Is Sonic's back throw able to setup into a Greninja U-smash in doubles? That would be great if so. Sounds like a good team of speedy assassins.

Yes, But Sonic D-throw to Frog F-smash seems to be better. You can space the f-smash to hit at any percent. The problem with up smash setups out of back throw is that the second hit might hit the sonic as well. Sonic D-throw into up smash can work but that depends on percentage and DI if you wanna get both hits.

Greninja D-throw at low percents however sets Sonic up for lots of fun!

 

[Ludiloco]

I've been playing ninja in dubs with a Ness main, we took 13th at Rebirth V out of 63 teams.

Greninja is actually a really good stock tank. I found myself living to ridiculous % as my partner went in and got big combos and edge guards. Since our jumps are so high and Ness' up throw is so slow, I can get Ness up throw -> Ninja up air which KOs around 70% guaranteed on any stage but like FD, BF, and Lylat. Ness f throw also works pretty well into Greninja up smash at upper mid %. It also really helps to have a partner who has a guaranteed KO throw past 100%.

 

[ROBnWatch]

I've been playing ninja in dubs with a Ness main, we took 13th at Rebirth V out of 63 teams.

Greninja is actually a really good stock tank. I found myself living to ridiculous % as my partner went in and got big combos and edge guards. Since our jumps are so high and Ness' up throw is so slow, I can get Ness up throw -> Ninja up air which KOs around 70% guaranteed on any stage but like FD, BF, and Lylat. Ness f throw also works pretty well into Greninja up smash at upper mid %. It also really helps to have a partner who has a guaranteed KO throw past 100%.

Ness is always a good teammate to have.

 

[bc1910]

What if BF put Sheik into helpless? Lol

 

[Guimartgon]

Does any of you use movement techs in their gameplay?(Foxtrotting, fox dancing, Perfect Pivoting e.t.c.) I myself perfect pivot a lot(mainly because I love how wavedashing works) I find myself Perfect pivoting backwards into down tilt when people try to approach me on the ground. I also perfect pivot my shurikens every so often as well as just using it to keep my opponent guessing. I don't foxtrot too much but I'm trying to fix that since with a toolkit like greninja's you can never have good enough movement(I'm also very interested in what I can get from Foxtrot into perfect pivot, in a similar way as to how I foxtrot perfect pivot Usmash with Mario). And for some reason I have many issues with fox dancing, I can use it once(So like Dash to one side and immediately turn around the other way but I can't turn around a second time) to try and bait approaches but I need to get comfy with the mechanic.

And also, do any of you tomahawk stuff?(So like short hop to bait a shield into Fast Fall and then X option, mostly grab?) I don't seem to do it too much and it could be quite useful to get grabs thanks to Greninja's excellent dash grab

 

[Starman147]

Does any of you use movement techs in their gameplay?(Foxtrotting, fox dancing, Perfect Pivoting e.t.c.) I myself perfect pivot a lot(mainly because I love how wavedashing works) I find myself Perfect pivoting backwards into down tilt when people try to approach me on the ground. I also perfect pivot my shurikens every so often as well as just using it to keep my opponent guessing. I don't foxtrot too much but I'm trying to fix that since with a toolkit like greninja's you can never have good enough movement(I'm also very interested in what I can get from Foxtrot into perfect pivot, in a similar way as to how I foxtrot perfect pivot Usmash with Mario). And for some reason I have many issues with fox dancing, I can use it once(So like Dash to one side and immediately turn around the other way but I can't turn around a second time) to try and bait approaches but I need to get comfy with the mechanic.

And also, do any of you tomahawk stuff?(So like short hop to bait a shield into Fast Fall and then X option, mostly grab?) I don't seem to do it too much and it could be quite useful to get grabs thanks to Greninja's excellent dash grab

Perfect pivoting I also find really useful with an up-tilt, as it can easily lead into an up-smash or up-air depending on the percent. It's a good option on d-throw if you can read an opponent's air dodge.

 

[Snackss]

C-stick tilt really shouldn't give you neutral moves, though. It's easy enough to push the A button, I don't know why it needs to also be in the C-stick.

 

[ROBnWatch]

C-stick tilt really shouldn't give you neutral moves, though. It's easy enough to push the A button, I don't know why it needs to also be in the C-stick.

Cause whatever controller option you're using is far too complicated. I know I'm in the minority on this, but my preferred way to play is with the Wii mote held sideways. It's makes the game a whole lot easier for me. But that's just me. You guys go ahead and use whatever you want.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Any ninja changes?

 

[31IV]

So, no confirmed changes in the new patch for us? That's alright to be honest.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

No Greninja nerfs for 1.1.1....we live to fight another day

 

[Snackss]

Basically all changes are to custom moves. Not that they aren't a priority given how many are useless even in free for all, but it feels like they're trying to deny that Sheik is overpowered.

 

[biribiri]

Tested shadow sneak canceling and it's still there as far as I can tell, so that's not what the two frame speed multipliers changed apparently.

 

[Crudele]

So there's a bunch of hoopla in the patch notes thread about how there's universally more shield stun and shield hitlag, did anyone test to see if shffnair is safer on shield? I'm at work

 

[DrizzyDrew]

So there's a bunch of hoopla in the patch notes thread about how there's universally more shield stun and shield hitlag, did anyone test to see if shffnair is safer on shield? I'm at work

Didn't get to test, but found this one example and idkkk yet gotta see it react to more moves
https://twitter.com/AceStarThe3rd/status/649204850434011136?lang=en