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Q&A The Pirate's Charm - READ BEFORE POSTING - The Toon Board Rules / Q&A Thread

Artmastercorey

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Question: In training mode with TL right now and sometimes I can SH to nair and do another SH to nair back-to-back with no landing lag, other times I get the landing lag for some reason. Why is that?
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Question: In training mode with TL right now and sometimes I can SH to nair and do another SH to nair back-to-back with no landing lag, other times I get the landing lag for some reason. Why is that?
You need to input the Nair during the jump-squat or no later than one frame after you've become airborne. If you Nair too late you'll get the landing lag of the Nair out of a SH. So just input the Nair quicker.
 

Artmastercorey

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Thank you fox.

Another question is it possible to reduce toonlinks landing lag in anyway? Reduce/cancel cool down on any of his moves in general?
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Thank you fox.

Another question is it possible to reduce toonlinks landing lag in anyway? Reduce/cancel cool down on any of his moves in general?
Well there's that thing I was talking about in the AT thread. You can look it up in the second post of the OP under 'Catch Lag Replacement'. It's practical utility still hasn't been tested though.
It's also possible to 'Edge Cancel' the landing lag of airdodges and Zairs which is something else you can look up while you're in there.
Then Fair's autocancel window comes out after it's iasa frames, so it's possible to avoid the longer Fair landing lag from a SH by doing something else before you land (e.g. Nair).
You'd have to be more specific if none of that helped.
 

kAffo

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Hey everyone :).
I just had a simple question about the most optimal control scheme for Toon Link, so to bring the true, and full potential of this character.
From what I've gathered, generally, Tap-Jump should be turned off to provide more efficiency with U-tilts and other movement options. But apart from that, should any of the other default control scheme layouts be altered for such advantages and/or efficiency in other tech? Example: It is advised :4sheik:mains change one of their trigger buttons to Special, to make tech such as C-Bouncing and Needle Fidgeting able to be executed with greater ease.
Also, preferably, should C-stick be set to Attack or Smash?

Thanks :D
 
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I wanted to try doing Safe Spikes, but I've had a lot of trouble with it. But I randomly realized I could do a BFO with a fuse really short then dair and get blown up after you achieved the hit and sort of get the same effects. Is this a good substitute for the legitimate Safe Spike?
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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The safe spike is terrible in smash 4 and it was impractical at best in brawl. I should just get rid of it from the AT list altogether. There is no legitimate substitute that I know of atm. Even in Brawl when you could just Z-drop then Dair, people wouldn't generally do this as it was too difficult to get the timing of the fuse blast right and you'd be committed to using it at a specific time regardless of where the opponent was in relation to you at the time. It's even more impractical now because of the fact that you have to catch it out of a BFO which is more telegraphed and further limits your ability to choose where you'll Dair as you have to drift sideways the whole time and then throw it around the peak of the jump etc.
 
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I guess it wasn't highlighted with a "(Must Know)" for a reason lol, I was practicing bomb tech recently, and I was utilizing more BFO's and JCT's so I wanted to learn more stuff. Thanks.

Edit:
Oooooh! I used a BTC and did a BFO with it to throw the bomb and re-catch it, and when the opponent Pit shot an arrow at me, the bomb took the hit but I re-caught it and used it against him! I didn't notice the potential in defensive maneuvers it had! But it seemed to only work the first time I did it in the beginning of the match, the other time I tried to do it again the bomb exploded. Any possible reasons as to why there was two different outcomes?
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Edit:
Oooooh! I used a BTC and did a BFO with it to throw the bomb and re-catch it, and when the opponent Pit shot an arrow at me, the bomb took the hit but I re-caught it and used it against him! I didn't notice the potential in defensive maneuvers it had! But it seemed to only work the first time I did it in the beginning of the match, the other time I tried to do it again the bomb exploded. Any possible reasons as to why there was two different outcomes?
Not quite sure what you mean by a 'BTC' but more to the point of the question, the reason why Pit's arrow exploded the bomb the second time was because the arrow was charged enough. Toon's bomb can only absorb 5% damage, any more and it explodes.
 
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Oh sorry I meant a JCT, but thanks again. So it can be used as an approach against people who don't charge their arrows if you time it right, thats cool :D
 

Artmastercorey

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I could have sworn there was a social thread at some point. I guess I'll post it here but my question is. Is toonlink "slow"?

I know people think he's fast because his run speed, and few decently fast moves. But on a competitive level is toon actually a slow character compared to say Link, or rob in terms of cool down and startup lag? Or do you feel toon is pretty much good the way he currently is and has been throughout?
 
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I could have sworn there was a social thread at some point. I guess I'll post it here but my question is. Is toonlink "slow"?

I know people think he's fast because his run speed, and few decently fast moves. But on a competitive level is toon actually a slow character compared to say Link, or rob in terms of cool down and startup lag? Or do you feel toon is pretty much good the way he currently is and has been throughout?
I personally think Toon Link is fine on his aerials and tilts and etc. I also don't often do much comparisons in things like cool down and starting lag on moves between other characters unless its very obvious. But the only thing I personally feel the need to watch out for is the slight startup lag before pulling out a boomerang or a bomb, which is why I jump forwards or backwards to get the most movement out of it while I pull it out, sometimes even with my bow too because sometimes you can be caught in those frames. But I'm sure others have options/fact that prove a few reasons hes slower than one might think in such categories.
 

LotadAlittle

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What are toon link's best out of shield options?
I like nair oos a lot, just be sure you let go of shield before pressing the attack button, or else you'll do a laggy zair. Another option, if you have a bomb in hand, jump oos and instant z drop, you could probably also izac oos too.
 

Tri Knight

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Also, this depends on shield push and what-not but if they're nice and close to me I'll go straight to U-tilt. Especially against fast-fallers at low percents. Characters like C. Falcon and Fox love our U-tilt so I like to give it to them when it's due.
 

Moffe

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I have questions about the ledge game.

What is like the safest and best way to punish the different ways of recovering from the ledge.
Do you have any effective ways of baiting a specific get up?

And opposite, which are the safest ways of recovering back to stage when your opponent is standing there waiting for your move?

This could almost be its own thread I guess.

Thanks in advance! :)
 

LotadAlittle

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I have questions about the ledge game.

What is like the safest and best way to punish the different ways of recovering from the ledge.
Do you have any effective ways of baiting a specific get up?

And opposite, which are the safest ways of recovering back to stage when your opponent is standing there waiting for your move?

This could almost be its own thread I guess.

Thanks in advance! :)
I've found grounded up b to cover just about all get ups, as long as you do it as a reaction to what they're doing then you should be safe from being bated and punished.
 

EyexSore

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Does anybody here know which of Toon Link's projectiles leaves him open the most while pulling the projectile out? I'm thinking it's the bomb, but I'm not sure.
 

LotadAlittle

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Pulling out a bomb takes 17 frames (not sure how many frames it takes to throw it), the hitbox for an uncharged arrow comes out on frame 18 and the boomerang's hitbox comes out on frame 27 (sweetspot remains active for 8 more frames).

If you're curious about the rest of Tink's frame data then you can find it here:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Toon Link
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I have questions about the ledge game.

What is like the safest and best way to punish the different ways of recovering from the ledge.
Do you have any effective ways of baiting a specific get up?

And opposite, which are the safest ways of recovering back to stage when your opponent is standing there waiting for your move?

This could almost be its own thread I guess.

Thanks in advance! :)
Boomerang, (Pivot) F-tilt, and Zair are probably the best/safest ways to cover ledge options for Toon imo due to the amount of active hitbox frames and their relative safety. The idea is to pick apart the small amount of invulnerability frames while out-spacing them and not over-committing yourself. Toon doesn't really have any really amazing options for this though.

Safest ways of getting back on-stage are to either just do a normal stand up (into shield or another option) or ledge jumping, both of which will require mixing up your timing as well as the actions you take immediately after. These should be used the most imo as they give you control of your character very early and they have the best invulnerability frame coverage; ledge get up only has one frame in which you are both vulnerable and cannot act while I think ledge jump may actually have no frames of vulnerability in which you are unable to act. Obviously the other options have their uses depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's good to simply do nothing for a bit and react to what the opponent does. It gets complicated when opponents have moves that cover multiple options or that have great options for specifically covering ledge getup or ledge jump, and that's when the other options (including ledge hop (hit away from the stage DJ back towards stage) immediate aerial/bomb/airdodge) will have to come out more often. If you're on a stage like DH you always have the option of doing a quick wall jump then DJ back towards stage to avoid that whole area altogether.* If they're really close to the edge, perhaps because they were thinking of doing a ledge trump don't forget about ledge jump (buffered-) z-drop.

* Pro tip about wall jumping from the ledge. If you're quick enough with the joystick input (not difficult), as strange as it sounds, it is possible to wall jump by hitting away from the ledge (to let go of the ledge) then immediately hold towards the stage... and that's it. Toon will automatically wall jump with no extra input to jump or hit away from the wall. It's great if you want to do instant wall jumps from the ledge. It's only for stages like DH with enough of a vertical side, but still, it's super useful.
 
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Moffe

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Boomerang, (Pivot) F-tilt, and Zair are probably the best/safest ways to cover ledge options for Toon imo due to the amount of active hitbox frames and their relative safety. The idea is to pick apart the small amount of invulnerability frames while out-spacing them and not over-committing yourself. Toon doesn't really have any really amazing options for this though.

Safest ways of getting back on-stage are to either just do a normal stand up (into shield or another option) or ledge jumping, both of which will require mixing up your timing as well as the actions you take immediately after. These should be used the most imo as they give you control of your character very early and they have the best invulnerability frame coverage; ledge get up only has one frame in which you are both vulnerable and cannot act while I think ledge jump may actually have no frames of vulnerability in which you are unable to act. Obviously the other options have their uses depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it's good to simply do nothing for a bit and react to what the opponent does. It gets complicated when opponents have moves that cover multiple options or that have great options for specifically covering ledge getup or ledge jump, and that's when the other options (including ledge hop (hit away from the stage DJ back towards stage) immediate aerial/bomb/airdodge) will have to come out more often. If you're on a stage like DH you always have the option of doing a quick wall jump then DJ back towards stage to avoid that whole area altogether.* If they're really close to the edge, perhaps because they were thinking of doing a ledge trump don't forget about ledge jump (buffered-) z-drop.

* Pro tip about wall jumping from the ledge. If you're quick enough with the joystick input (not difficult), as strange as it sounds, it is possible to wall jump by hitting away from the ledge (to let go of the ledge) then immediately hold towards the stage... and that's it. Toon will automatically wall jump with no extra input to jump or hit away from the wall. It's great if you want to do instant wall jumps from the ledge. It's only for stages like DH with enough of a vertical side, but still, it's super useful.
Thanks so much! This is exactly what I was looking for :)! I have also wanted to try to experiment with C4 on the edge but havent gotten that far yet.
 
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Dre89

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Hey guys quick question

I really like Tink and want to pick him up because I like his character and WW is one of my favourite games. The problem is I find him super awkward and un-intuitive to play. He's small, campy and floaty, whereas I've always played fast fallers who had to approach

I'm just wondering if he 'clicked' for you when you first played him, or if it took a number of games to get used to his uncommon style. Thanks in advance
 
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LotadAlittle

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Hey guys quick question

I really like Tink and want to pick him up because I like his character and WW is one of my favourite games. The problem is I find him super awkward and un-intuitive to play. He's small, campy and floaty, whereas I've always played fast fallers who had to approach

I'm just wondering if he 'clicked' for you when you first played him, or if it took a number of games to get used to his uncommon style. Thanks in advance
I honestly hate camping, and so my solution is: f*ck that, TINK IS NOW A RUSHDOWN CHARACTER *AIRHORNS*!!! Or, in English: play Toon Link however you want, I personally play quite aggressively which is in no way ideal but it's how I have the most fun and hell, sometimes I catch people off guard with my play style.
tldr; if you like the playstyle of Falcon but you prefer the character Toon Link, play a rushdown Toon Link, however this may not suit you because of the tools in Tink's kit.
Personally I usually approach with bombs and kind of improvise my combos/strings (learn to jump cancel glide toss)
 

Dre89

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I honestly hate camping, and so my solution is: f*ck that, TINK IS NOW A RUSHDOWN CHARACTER *AIRHORNS*!!! Or, in English: play Toon Link however you want, I personally play quite aggressively which is in no way ideal but it's how I have the most fun and hell, sometimes I catch people off guard with my play style.
tldr; if you like the playstyle of Falcon but you prefer the character Toon Link, play a rushdown Toon Link, however this may not suit you because of the tools in Tink's kit.
Personally I usually approach with bombs and kind of improvise my combos/strings (learn to jump cancel glide toss)
It's more the floatiness and low range on his melee that I find awkward. I don't mind camping, I like the idea of getting creative with projectile walls and frame traps.
 

LotadAlittle

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It's more the floatiness and low range on his melee that I find awkward. I don't mind camping, I like the idea of getting creative with projectile walls and frame traps.
I don't find his lack of range too much of an issue considering most of the time I get melee attacks off of projectiles eg. jcgt bomb to fair/nair/up air, sweetspot rang to fair/nair/up air etc. Once they catch onto this though they'll start shielding which can give you mix up opportunities eg. run up (they shield) - jcgt up throw bomb - grab pummel (optional) - up throw (with neutral DI they're launched into the bomb).
 

AlaGORY

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I apologize if this has already been covered somewhere but I've had trouble finding it. In fact, I'm damn sure I've seen it mentioned somewhere on here but it now eludes me, and none of the pinned guides say anything about it (they also seem to be growing more and more out of date).

Essentially I'm looking to have some tech explained that yackabean pulled off at about 1:22 in this replay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GEACbucdJc

It looks like he z dropped the bomb, then caught it with the nair input, but why didnt zair come out?

And while we're talking about zair, I've seen conflicting replies about zair auto cancelling. Some people saying it does, some saying it doesnt, while others claiming it only auto cancels after a dodge and some only if you do NOT dodge before hand. Can someone clarify once and for all?

I appreciate in advance any replies that help clarify this as its been bugging the hell out of me for a while now. I love playing TL and watching games at the level yackabean plays him. I am looking to incorporate more tech into my play all the time and this looks like it could be an amazing tool in keeping momentum in your favour.

Thanks!
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I apologize if this has already been covered somewhere but I've had trouble finding it. In fact, I'm damn sure I've seen it mentioned somewhere on here but it now eludes me, and none of the pinned guides say anything about it (they also seem to be growing more and more out of date).

Essentially I'm looking to have some tech explained that yackabean pulled off at about 1:22 in this replay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GEACbucdJc

It looks like he z dropped the bomb, then caught it with the nair input, but why didnt zair come out?

And while we're talking about zair, I've seen conflicting replies about zair auto cancelling. Some people saying it does, some saying it doesnt, while others claiming it only auto cancels after a dodge and some only if you do NOT dodge before hand. Can someone clarify once and for all?

I appreciate in advance any replies that help clarify this as its been bugging the hell out of me for a while now. I love playing TL and watching games at the level yackabean plays him. I am looking to incorporate more tech into my play all the time and this looks like it could be an amazing tool in keeping momentum in your favour.

Thanks!
Next time don't make a separate thread to ask a question.

The stickied threads do answer your questions. And just to prove it I'll let them do the talking.

Here's from the AT thread:
Instant Z-Drop
Description: Toon will Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out as he leaves the ground from jumping.
How to Perform: While holding a Bomb, press the Jump button, then as Toon is coming out of the Jump squat animation and just before he actually leaves the ground, press the Grab button while keeping the joystick in neutral.
Note: This is the most useful way to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out. If you re-catch the Bomb with an aerial immediately after dropping it, this would be an IZAC. If you Z-drop the Bomb within the opponent's hurtbox, the Bomb will immediately explode on them, and since Z-dropping is lagless and the Bomb explosion doesn't hurt you when activated by an opponent's hurtbox, this leaves you free to combo out of the Bomb explosion with an aerial. Otherwise, you can simply Z-drop it beside them which will explode on the ground a moment later after you're out of range, and this explosion can similarly be used to combo.

and also

IZAC
Description: Similar to the ZAC, the only difference being that the IZAC is done while rising and is therefore much more strict on the timing.
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Jump then quickly Tap the grab button to Z-drop the bomb (without Zair coming out), Instantly let go of the grab button, then Instantly catch the Bomb with an aerial.
Note: It is very important that you Z-drop the Bomb at the right time; too early will cancel the jump ( resulting in a JC Throw), too late and you'll Zair. It is also extremely important that you are not still pressing Z when you use an aerial otherwise it won't work. You can try tapping or flicking the grab button to make sure you're only pressing it for a split second, whatever works for you. If you do manage to master this tech it means that you can use instant aerials while holding a bomb and you can then follow up with a bomb throw.


Then this is from the Guide:
Zair does have some landing lag (8 frames) and it doesn't do very much shield-stun, which means it will not be safe on shield if you land right in front of the opponent. You also typically don't want to airdodge then cancel the airdodge with Zair except under certain circumstances, e.g. if you need to Zair while holding the Bomb or you intend to 'edge cancel' the lag. This is because the airdodge landing lag will be transferred over to the Zair such that if you land at any point during the entire Zair animation, you will have to go through the heavy landing lag of the airdodge. Because of this, you will want to use Zair by only pressing the grab button

And finally one more from the AT thread:
Edge Cancelling
Description: Toon does a certain action such as an airdodge and drifts forwards towards the edge of a platform or the stage, lands near the end of it and slides off which completely removes any remaining animation and lag from the previous action, in this case the airdodge.
How to Perform: Simply jump towards the edge of a platform or the edge of the stage, hold the joystick forwards, do an action that can be ledge cancelled and aim you movement so that you land on the very end of the platform or stage and then slide off due to your momentum moving forwards.
Note: This can also be done with Arrows, airdodge and Zair (including an airdodge to Zair) to completely cut their ending lag allowing you to do any other action immediately. The arrows have to be fired before you land on the edge and you have to fall off forwards in order for it to work. This allows us to do lagless Zair's while holding a Bomb too.
 

AlaGORY

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That's phenomenal! Thank you for taking the time. And sorry for not reading over the rules. Won't happen again.
 

mistercupter

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Does anyone have a daily practice regimen they'd like to recommend for practicing TL for upcoming tournaments? I primarily have to practice alone and I was wondering if there were any things you guys do every day that really show results for when I do play others. Sorry if this has been covered already.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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http://gfycat.com/AfraidMadeupBeardedcollie

So Toon is my secondary, and I main peach,
but this is still confusing to me.
Does Toon have invincibility on Boomerang?
No Toon doesn't have invincibility at any point in his boomerang. I believe what happened was that the animation of the aerial boomerang throw first let the bob-omb pass under Toon harmlessly, then when it was just past Toon, the boomerang throw animation extended a limb which set off the bob-omb but then immediately retracted, and by this time the bob-omb was already well past Toon and so Toon simply avoided the explosion altogether. It's just one of those freak occurrences.
And for the record, the explosion animation is deceptive. The actual hitbox of the bob-omb explosion is smaller than it looks.
 

j.method()

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I see. I didn't think toon link had invincibility but I couldn't figure out what happened there. Just a freak occurrence sums it up though. Thanks.
 

Moffe

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impossible to measure on the spot.. Unless they fight the same opponents or each other. They are all good and fight differently, though I believe from what I have seen that Zan is better. But you never know.
 

FOR SCIENCE

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Why was dix able to do so good at tbh5 and no other tink has gotten top 64 at any other major? What does he do differnt?
 
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