Mighty_mo76
Smash Apprentice
one question, what is ASDI? i mean how do you do it? Do you hold the analog stick, or tap it, or is it the c-stick, or what? plz clarify.
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The Physics of Attacks (DI included) updated: 1/09/09
- Thread starter SCOTU
- Start date
SCOTU
Smash Hero
ASDI (which is not currently believed to be in brawl) is a smaller version of smash DI (SDI) that is automatically granted on the frame that hitlag ends in the direction the control stick (or csitck -- cstick out-prioritizes the control stick in the regards).
Mighty_mo76
Smash Apprentice
thanx. this thread has been very informative, plz continue w/ the testing and such. Iv'e tested a few of your caims and found them to be 100% true.
good work
good work
Inuashakent
Smash Apprentice
Great stuff to know, thanks.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
Is there really a such thing as "intrinsic priority" in any game?? I'm not so sure.
I think its all a matter of super armor and hitboxes.
I think its all a matter of super armor and hitboxes.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Use Marth's f-smash on another Marth's jab (space it so that neither Marth gets hit).
The Marth that jabbed will clank, while the Marth that f-smashed will not.
The Attack Queue actually goes to 10
Here is an examples: Ike's Fairs base damage is 13-12-10-9-9-7-7-6-6-5 and it will not dimish any more because the Attack Queue only goes to ten also if I keep using it all it does is make it do 5 damage over and over again.
This is also true for his Bair= 14-12-11-10-9-8-8-7-6-6-6-6-6
Here is an examples: Ike's Fairs base damage is 13-12-10-9-9-7-7-6-6-5 and it will not dimish any more because the Attack Queue only goes to ten also if I keep using it all it does is make it do 5 damage over and over again.
This is also true for his Bair= 14-12-11-10-9-8-8-7-6-6-6-6-6
Dxt XXII
Smash Journeyman
Very interesing...
But do all attacks decay so much?
But do all attacks decay so much?
SCOTU
Smash Hero
It is currently believed that attacks that do approx 8-9% more will cancel the other move, as that is how it was done in melee.
You're actually confirming a 9 move queue, as when you swing for 13, there are 0 fsmashes in the queue, and when you swing for 5, there are 9, and it doesn't decay any more.
No. for instance, DK's fhtrow doesn't decay. however, this might just be an exception and i haven't looked into a consistent rate. In Melee, all moves decayed at the same rate though.
vanderzant
Smash Journeyman
Excellent guide. I never realised that you had to return the c-stick back the centre to SDI again.
Ryuker
Smash Lord
First of nice guide.
Is there any proof that edge teching is impossible? Cause it happened to me quite often and you can find a few examples on youtube aswell . I really didn't find the system much different. All I did was tap L just before I got hit.
I can't really post any prove since most of the techs on the ground I did have been online and were over the 3 minute mark so I couldn't record it. But especially when lag occured I found that just like in melee pressing the shield buttons you can still tech and roll the other direction. From hits at like 100% I hardly moved a meter or something and it saved me from possible KO's. All I did was tap L a few frames before the hit.
Is there any proof that edge teching is impossible? Cause it happened to me quite often and you can find a few examples on youtube aswell . I really didn't find the system much different. All I did was tap L just before I got hit.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
to use normal DI, just be holding the direction you want before you're sent flying from an attack. It doesn't need to be input during a certain window, it just checks what direction you're holding the frame you're sent flying.
I know that you can ground tech if there is a slope involved, and i've seen other weird ground techs. I just stated you can't do it the same way as in melee.
Also, i would like to see the youtube video's you've seen w/ edge teching, because, although it might be possible, all the vids of "edge teching" i've seen have been walltechs, not edgetechs (where they were hit into the wall).
Eaode
Smash Champion
I've actually Edgeteched a ganondorf's Dair with Snake. It was lower on the wall, but a ledge is just a wall anyway. Since the Dair doesn't hit you sideways into the wall, it pretty much proves edgeteching is still in, albeit pretty much useless because of the sweetspotting (Unless your friend likes to suicide spike like mine lol)
SCOTU
Smash Hero
the differentiation made between ledge teching and wall teching is if you're hit into the wall after the attack, vs teching on the wall while being hit (during hitlag), typically if you're sent away from the edge.
Magus420
Smash Master
If you DI inward on a move like a spike that sends you straight down it's still sending you into the wall.
Eaode
Smash Champion
I didn't know you could tech during hitlag in melee, I thought it was in the hitstun right after 
Even if it wouldn't technically count as a "Edge" tech, teching such a spike is still useful. Someone should test attacks that hit you away, or have you already done so?
Even if it wouldn't technically count as a "Edge" tech, teching such a spike is still useful. Someone should test attacks that hit you away, or have you already done so?
Ryuker
Smash Lord
I can't remember the name. You might be right about edge techs now that I think about it some more. If you really can't tech during hitlag then it rules it out obviously. But If you can just buffer the tech to happen after the hitlag then DI'into the stage should be enough to tech right?
Eaode
Smash Champion
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought edgeteching was in the first place
SCOTU
Smash Hero
that requires you to be hit into the stage.
Lethe
Smash Cadet
can a regular (non super armor) smash trade hits?
vs my friend's meta, sometimes my fsmash will trade hits with the FIRST hit of his drill rush. but drill rush is a bmove, it ought to be covered by intrisic priority... right?!
in this youtube, g&w's fsmash trades with luigi's nair, at about 18 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW3KcmmcFgU ... sorry i couldn't find one of drill rush, but what's happening is the same as in this vid.
i was hoping someone with technical knowledge could explain a little about trading hits... when does it happen and why? my guess is that the game is treating drill rush as an aerial, with implied priority... because unless i read the op wrong, with ground/b moves you either beat his move, he beats yours, or you clang, there's no trading except with aerials.
vs my friend's meta, sometimes my fsmash will trade hits with the FIRST hit of his drill rush. but drill rush is a bmove, it ought to be covered by intrisic priority... right?!
in this youtube, g&w's fsmash trades with luigi's nair, at about 18 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW3KcmmcFgU ... sorry i couldn't find one of drill rush, but what's happening is the same as in this vid.
i was hoping someone with technical knowledge could explain a little about trading hits... when does it happen and why? my guess is that the game is treating drill rush as an aerial, with implied priority... because unless i read the op wrong, with ground/b moves you either beat his move, he beats yours, or you clang, there's no trading except with aerials.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
typically, hit trading occurs when each hitbox overlaps the other's hurbox either, on the same frame, or so that the hitboxen don't collide w/ each other.
Lethe
Smash Cadet
ah, ok. thanks
Taalcon
Smash Journeyman
I'm not sure if this question has been asked already, but can you SDI with both your control stick and your c-stick by banging both of them in the direction you want repeatedly to SDI out of an attack faster andor farter?
SCOTU
Smash Hero
You can SDI w/ both sticks, however, i'm not sure if the game will take an input from both of them on the same frame, let alone in the same direction.
Taalcon
Smash Journeyman
But if you weren't as fast fingered as some of the other guys who can SDI with just one stick, could you make up for it by using both sticks to SDI by spacing your taps from each stick?
SCOTU
Smash Hero
you typically don't need more than 1 SDI to escape anything. The tried and true method is to roll the control stick back and forth covering the 2 adjacent directions to the direction you're trying to SDI in. Each time the control stick gets to one of it's 8 directions, it registers as an SDI.
I think the Olimar's aerials somehow break the rule with aerials not parrying. In training mode, I got Olimar's fair to "parry" with both his fair , which uses a pikmin, and his nair, which does not. They made the parry circle thing, but unlike normal parries, both attacks continued after the parry. Furthermore, at the same distance, the fair did hit the other olimar when he didn't do the nair, so the hurtbox would have been in range of the fair. I'll test it some more with Olimar's fair against other stuff, like smashes.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
aerials can clash. i thought i updated that. If not, whoops i did on AiB.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
scotu i have so many questions on smash di
you know how like on halberd it shoots this lazer. well when u get stuck in it i cant get out of it yet i use the c stick to get out and it works. do i have to hold it in the direction i want to go or keep tapping it.
another thing is does using both sticks help you survive? i rmemeber pros in melee would survive ridiculous attacks and live to high %s, what do you do like as soon as you get hit, smash the c stick the right directions and then DI accordingly?
i think thats about it for now. thanks bro
you know how like on halberd it shoots this lazer. well when u get stuck in it i cant get out of it yet i use the c stick to get out and it works. do i have to hold it in the direction i want to go or keep tapping it.
another thing is does using both sticks help you survive? i rmemeber pros in melee would survive ridiculous attacks and live to high %s, what do you do like as soon as you get hit, smash the c stick the right directions and then DI accordingly?
i think thats about it for now. thanks bro
SCOTU
Smash Hero
press it repeatedly, or if you're using the control stick, you can roll it 1/4 circle around the direction you need to go, and that's most effective.
Pros in melee used both sticks to ASDI in one direction and normal DI or SDI in a different direction. however, this doesn't help in brawl. Just DI right w/ the control stick.
SoliceTK
Smash Rookie
Great guide bro. Loved the info on the DI, thank you everyone for your responses!
infomon
Smash Scientist
This seems... important. I'd appreciate seeing whatever sources you have for Brawl priority; projectiles, aerials, specials, tether-attacks like Samus' z-air, etc. There's a lot of misinformation all over the place.
I'm currently mulling over this; is this correct?
This here Physics of Attacks thread is referenced from SamuraiPanda's **ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED** thread, and it's sad watching all this stuff fall out of date.
Erm, not to prod you for stuff, just yearning to learn how Brawl works for serious
If you don't have time for this, even if you have references for where this stuff is being discussed?
SCOTU
Smash Hero
well what i know from priority is (for at least ground attacks) worked like in melee (except with different numbers): if two attacks have hitboxen that collide, if the damage they would deal are within 10% of each other, they'll clash, otherwise the one that does more damage will out prioritize the weaker attack.
As for Projectiles, I don't have much info on it, But Simna (over at Allisbrawl; join there if you haven't ) either started working on types of projectiles, or was trying to get it started.
I'd assume atm that areails work the same way as ground attacks, and same for tethers.
one more thing: this will never be "out of date" You'll always need to know this stuff.
As for Projectiles, I don't have much info on it, But Simna (over at Allisbrawl; join there if you haven't
) either started working on types of projectiles, or was trying to get it started.I'd assume atm that areails work the same way as ground attacks, and same for tethers.
one more thing: this will never be "out of date" You'll always need to know this stuff.
thesage
Smash Hero
Ness' nair clanked with his u-smash.
Does Ness u-smash have weird projectile properties (it just can't be reflected?).
Does Ness u-smash have weird projectile properties (it just can't be reflected?).
infomon
Smash Scientist
Okay. Generally, Brawl discussions talk about Priority as if, every attack is given a special Priority Number, that is used to compare which attack wins in a contest. So now, I see that this does not exist; it's just the damage that would be caused by the attacks that is compared. This seems quite important; all the whining about Sonic's "low priority" actually just amounts to Sonic not causing enough damage to win very often. I recommend you add this damage-based-priority info to the OP.
Please let me clarify my understanding..... let's say two attack hitboxes, A and B, strike at the same time. Assume that hurtboxes are safely out of the way, that neither attack has superarmor, and that both characters are on the ground. The attacks might be normal Attacks, or Specials.
If A would do 4% damage, and B would do 15%: B's attack will continue, and A's will be interrupted. That is, A's attack will stop immediately, returning the character to their usual standing state. A blue-grey circle will appear where the clash occurred, though I don't think there will be a "clank" sound, and I don't think there will be any extra hit-lag to the attack (but I could be wrong). B's attack will continue on.
If A would do 5% damage, and B would do 15%: There's a "clank" sound, the blue-grey clank bubble appears at the clash, and both characters return to their standing state.
Now, let's throw in a hurtbox for each character. We must account for all possible overlappings of the four axis-aligned rectangles in play. I would suppose it works as follows, for two characters X and Y. If we have a frame where an X hitbox overlaps Y's hurtbox, then Y gets hurt, case closed.
If X's hitbox overlaps Y's hurtbox, on the same frame that Y's hitbox overlaps X's hurtbox, and the hitboxes do not overlap, then they should trade hits, without clanking, obviously.
Now let's suppose that X's hitbox hits both Y's hurtbox and Y's hitbox. Here I'm not sure what happens; the damage-based-priority check might be taken into consideration, but I doubt it; I'd guess that Y simply takes the damage, and there is no clank-bubble. Y's attack is interrupted and both characters enter "hitlag". (Hmm, I guess we should separate that into "hitlag" and "hurtlag".. but that's too confusing since most uses of the word "hitlag" refer to the loser, not the winner. Instead I might use "hitlag" and "hittinglag"; agree?)
Now suppose we have X's hitbox overlapping Y's hurtbox, Y's hitbox overlapping X's hurtbox, AND the two hitboxes overlap which could lead to a clash. Again, I'm not sure what happens here; might they trade hits? Or will one attack simply win?
Superarmor is fairly easy to take into account; it just means an Attack or Special is uninterruptible. A superarmor'd hitbox might cause an attack to clank, but will not itself clank. The attack will continue in spite of anything, and although the superarmor'd character will suffer damage, it will not enter hitlag, and the attacker will not enter hittinglag afaik. (I might be wrong about that, I can't test now.)
But does Superarmor truly exist in the game? I have read that some attacks are just "heavy armor" (?), and depending on some combination of the damages of that attacks as well as the percent damage the character(s) have, their attack might be interrupted. Sorry I don't know much about this, I'll have to search the forums etc..... but as far as I'm concerned, this does matter as a part of understanding priority.
... and as was brought up, grabs (of all kinds) to not have SA, just that if a grab connects you take damage but no knockback (cuz you're grabbing ftw).
Now, there's another phenomenon about regular Attacks and particularly Specials: hitbox cancelling. Consider Link's up-B attack, on the ground. Stand a little outside its range, and you can hit it with a jab. Your jab will clank and be cancelled, but Link will keep on spinning. But now that you've already clinked with the attack, you can walk right on in safely; hit him or grab him or whatever. Even though his attack hitbox remains; once you've cancelled it, it won't hurt you.
That works on Link because it is a single-hit attack; obviously with multi-hit attacks like Pikachu's Dsmash, you're only safe in-between hits, which is not very exploitable. This is one reason multi-hit moves seem to have a ton of "priority".
Also note that shielding Link's spin attack will give you the same invulnerability to its hitbox that you get by clanking an attack on it. This makes a lot of sense when you see that shielding anything produces a little "clank bubble"!
I think you're wrong about that, although I'm not sure how you mean it. I think your OP is right when it indicates that aerials will not clank with other aerials. From my own tests, if two aerial hitboxes overlap, there's no problem; neither is interrupted. If an aerial overlaps your hurtbox, you get hit, and if two characters each have aerial hitboxes over the other's hurtbox, they "trade hits".
So I say that "aerials do not clank". But there are some important exceptions.
The most obvious is that regular Attacks and Specials can clank against Aerials. The Aerial just wins, while the Attack gets clanked. I'm not sure if there's a damage-based-priority check in this case, to see if the ground attack gets interrupted or not, but I doubt it. But the Aerial hitbox will not be interrupted by your attack hitbox.
I've only seen this work with some attacks, though. For example, try to use an aerial to cause any of these Up-smashes to clink: DK, Zelda, Lucas... I just can't get it. IMO the aerial just wins.
But Zelda's Din's Fire (side-B) can be clinked against; I've used G&W's Dair, and Sonic's Fair, for example. This conveniently cancels any lingering hitbox of the attack.
thesage points out:
Thank you for finding that! I think you're exactly right, the yo-yo is treated as a projectile, and so you can clink with it; even an aerial will cause it to clink. The aerial will not be interrupted, and I don't think the Yoyo will either (can it sometimes be interrupted, or never?), but you'll get a clink-bubble. Most of Olimar's attacks behave like this; waving around those little Pikmin, they will all clink against lots of things, which doesn't necessarily interrupt them, although afaik they can be killed from it. So Olimar is very exceptional in that most of his Aerials will clink against other Aerials!! But this is not typical of how Aerials work.
Getting more info on projectiles, and their different types etc. would be great. But I have not been very impressed with allisbrawl from my (admittedly few) attempts to find useful information there. It seems like they have more n00bs than smashboardsAs for Projectiles, I don't have much info on it, But Simna (over at Allisbrawl; join there if you haven't
but maybe I'm just better at avoiding them here Well, the article might contain false or misleading information that has not kept current with the general understanding of how Brawl works. There's still lots that hasn't been figured out IMO. That being said, your guide has served me great for a while
SCOTU
Smash Hero
When a hitbox overlaps a hurtbox (even if it overlaps a hitbox), the attack connects. Character A & B both hit each other's hurboxen on the same frame (regardless of if the hitboxen connect), they'll trade.
I'm not sure if you were implying this or not, but the hitboxen/ hurboxen are almost definately not rectangles. In melee they were capsules.
I don't know how aerial priority works yet. To my knowledge, no one does (save the developers).
I also don't have any info backing up nor refuting the yo-yo being a "projectile".
The density of noobs and ppl who don't know what they're talking about and spammers is significantly higher here on smashboards since the announcement of brawl. That's why many ppl prefer AiB (allisbrawl) nowadays.
I'm not sure if you were implying this or not, but the hitboxen/ hurboxen are almost definately not rectangles. In melee they were capsules.
I don't know how aerial priority works yet. To my knowledge, no one does (save the developers).
I also don't have any info backing up nor refuting the yo-yo being a "projectile".
The density of noobs and ppl who don't know what they're talking about and spammers is significantly higher here on smashboards since the announcement of brawl. That's why many ppl prefer AiB (allisbrawl) nowadays.