The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Naucitos]

Only problem i have with that, St., is that MK can't be on the same level as snake while simultaneously being the best >_>

 

[BarakuDragon]

you dont see why an overpowered character should be banned?

what??

are you serious?

Kid, back in the day, there were alot of snake haters ALOT they said how op he was, snake dashing was stupid utilt was stupid, everything about snake was op, he's an op char yet he was never baned and still isn't baned. Now, because theres an even more op char then snake which is mk you wanna ban him, i mean what's the point you might as well ban every op char that's like in the game, it'll leave to like 12 char's prob being removed, lol.

I'm just saying reguardless of him being op doesn't mean he should be removed, people work to get a char good so they can win, MK is no different, even though MK wins alot of matches i'm sure the people who use him worked hard to get to be as good as they are, to be a good MK that they are now, so why should their char's be baned just because you can't win a couple of matches.

All i'm saying if your really that you shouldn't ban a char just because someone is really good with him cause he's a easy to use char, in melee theres alot of easy to use char's and there is in brawl to, it's just natural. It's like that in any game, but that doesn't mean there unbeatable, nor are they god it just means you gotta think of how to beat them, if mk gets baned it just shows you've given up and don't know how to think of a way to beat your opponent. I've never not once heard of any character in any game period being baned from online gaming, tournements or matches, why should it have to start with MK just because he's strong.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm gonna say he does not need to be banned. As gay as he is. If I am able to beat or go even with Good Meta, with Peach.......PEACH, then I see no need to bann him. I have learned my match up with him and know what I have to do to beat him. and for MY Peach it is not that hard. I ether beat him or the game is to the wire.

Same thing with snake vs Peach. So to me, People just need to work harder than ever. And some just don't wanna do that. Play all Peach in tournaments and it will feel the same way as if you was just playing meta. Its not easy. People need to work at it with thier character.

Its just like shiek in melee. Shiek was too broken in the game. Yet people dealt with it. Foxes, Falcos, Marths, even Peach's Beat shiek and that match up is not in her favor at all. Comming from a Peach main thats fights meta so much, what I have to say to the others that want him banned is "work hard and learn the fight or else just don't pick up a controller"

 

[Tenki]

Kid, back in the day, there were alot of snake haters ALOT they said how op he was, snake dashing was stupid utilt was stupid, everything about snake was op, he's an op char yet he was never baned and still isn't baned. Now, because theres an even more op char then snake which is mk you wanna ban him, i mean what's the point you might as well ban every op char that's like in the game, it'll leave to like 12 char's prob being removed, lol.

I'm just saying reguardless of him being op doesn't mean he should be removed, people work to get a char good so they can win, MK is no different, even though MK wins alot of matches i'm sure the people who use him worked hard to get to be as good as they are, to be a good MK that they are now, so why should their char's be baned just because you can't win a couple of matches.

All i'm saying if your really that you shouldn't ban a char just because someone is really good with him cause he's a easy to use char, in melee theres alot of easy to use char's and there is in brawl to, it's just natural. It's like that in any game, but that doesn't mean there unbeatable, nor are they god it just means you gotta think of how to beat them, if mk gets baned it just shows you've given up and don't know how to think of a way to beat your opponent. I've never not once heard of any character in any game period being baned from online gaming, tournements or matches, why should it have to start with MK just because he's strong.

yuuur I remember that.

It was annoying. If you tried to bring up a legitimate weakness, someone would discard it and say the Snake wasn't doing it right or whatever, because they were just in denial that Snake had weaknesses. Whaaat? You can grab Snake out of cypher? Well, he can just recover away from the stage! What? You can hit Snake out of cypher? He can C4 recover!

...

The MK debate has a bad taste reminiscent of that.

Anyway, over time, people came to abuse and accept Snake's weaknesses, and even though he's powerful, he's not overpowered. People know the range of his tilts and how to take advantage of his recovery, among other things. Snake is just a really good character.

Will Metaknight eventually come to a lull and weaknesses be exploited? Maybe, maybe not. The ones who claimed Snake had weaknesses in his recovery exploited it, his aerials and landing lag got exploited, etc. Let the people who say that MK has weaknesses also exploit them and see just how easily (or not) they are covered up.

...and some frame data for duration and ending lag on moves would be nice.

 

[laki]

You STILL haven't gotten that frame data. Haven't you been asking for like 2 or 3 weeks.

I suggest you ask hot garbage cause he seems to always know frame data.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont like how ppl that are against the ban tend to trivialize the reasons for it, while it seems like ppl for the ban (me, salaboB, DRaGZ, Arturito_Burrito) are more apt to take other peoples arguments and explain throughly why that arguement is either incorrect or does not devalididate the ban.

people (like anther among others) try to make it seem so easy to: "just block and punish the tornado" or, "just shieldgrab the glide attack" and im really getting tired of it, the stuff you need to do to beat him really isnt as easy as people make it out to be. because if it was, people like plank and dr. mario kart wouldnt be winning.

everybody needs to come to an accurate understanding to the extent that MK is hurting the game.
just because you want to ignore the elephant in the room doesnt mean that hes not there

 

[Naucitos]

I say its easy to block and punish the tornado because in my experience, it IS easy to block and punish the tornado. The reason i trivialize the reasons are because they are trivial.
MK does not have broken enough matches to warrant a ban.
"MK isn't fun" Has no bearing on a competitive game.
MK does not make any more characters unviable than other top tiers.
Lots of MK players does not mean that it damages the metagame, it prompts the players of other characters to find ways around it, and develop more techniques.
I'm a bit pressed to find any other arguments i've heard recently that are even close to making sense.

 

[Tenki]

I say its easy to block and punish the tornado because in my experience, it IS easy to block and punish the tornado.

You know something's punishable when a Yoshi can do it out of shield.

 

[illboyzeus]

Metaknight has no bad matchups, even the close ones are debatable. What is the point of legitimately playing another character, outside of downright favortism. Metaknight is the best option in any situation. I would love to hear a good reason NOT to play metaknight.

 

[lordXblade]

1. storm cable and sentinal were in the same class as magneto, despite teh fact that magneto was the best.
2. from what i hear, Yun is better.
3. i cant remember exactly which characters are top tier in that game, but i know that there was more at teh top than just blanka, wait bison was up there in his class right?
4. banning a character should happen when a character is unnessicarily stagnating and centralising the metagame, you mindset is wrong in this case. but when you think that way, i can see why you wouldnt want the ban
5. M2K has a tips vs MK thread. dojo has a lets beat Mk thread, and specifically the sonic boards (among other, im sure) have specifically a Sonic vs shuttle loop and tornado thread. dont talk, when you have no idea what you are saying. the fact that we are all putting so much effort into beating this one character is one of the reasons for his ban in the first place
6. you forgot G-reg. and in your SF example, i can confidently say that this is because characters are much more balenced in SF than brawl. herrgo its much easier to win with hugo than it is with captain falcon
7. uhhh... i kinda am. i already do do those things you said and i DO know MK better than most people. I am sick and tired of people being under the mindset that once you learn more about Mk youll realise he isnt broken.
cus most of the time the people that take the time to learn all that they can about MK end up coming to the conclusion that he truly is broken. Overswarm is the most easily recognised example of this. or do i need to refer you to the NUMEROUS posts from myself DRaGZ and salaboB in the threads i mentioned i mentioned in number 5

1. Nope, never. There is one way to beat Magneto, run away. But you can only run away for so long. All Magneto needs is one low short, which is a one frame move, to beat you. He infinites/resets one character, kills it, guard breaks the one coming in, kills it, guard breaks the last one, kills it. Done. Magneto is a class above every character in the game, but people still find ways to fight him.

2. Yun is no longer better than Chun, and the Yun/Chun matchup is no longer in Yun's favor, in fact, I would say, and many top Yuns would agree with me, that it's in Chun's favor, mainly because Chun's ground game is very very effective in stopping Genei-Jin.

3. Yes, there is more than just Blanka in top tier, but, unless you're John Choi, you need Blanka on your team if you hope to win. Bison isn't necessary, and Bison is known to be ridiculous because BAS makes him ridiculous, not because the character himself is broken.

4. Banning a character that doesn't have those attributes is what stagnates the meta-game. Some characters are bad, end of story. You can't play Dan in CVS, you can't play Sean in 3S, and you can't play Pichu in Melee. Hell, you can't play half the cast in Marvel, but that doesn't lead them to ban Magneto, because doing that would cause the game's advancement to come to a screeching halt. Keep away strategies were invented to stop Magneto, and various parry strategies were developed as a way to fight Chun. Banning a character that doesn't meet the criteria I described won't help advance the Metagame, it will stifle it.

5. Have you thought about the fact that Sonic is a bad character, and maybe you should learn someone else (non-MK of course) to help you fight MK? It takes time to find effective strategies, and instead of spending time trying to get MK banned, take that time into advancing your game against Metaknight.

6. First of all, Falcon isn't low tier. Second of all SilentSpectre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>G-reg. And no, 3S is not balanced. Chun-Li ***** Hugo for free on paper, but it's the player with vision and dedication that allows a character like Hugo to whoop on Chun, which is probably Hugo's worst match up.

7. And BUM, AZ, Forward, Azen, Lucien, and several other players are counter-examples.

 

[Naucitos]

Metaknight has no bad matchups, even the close ones are debatable. What is the point of legitimately playing another character, outside of downright favortism. Metaknight is the best option in any situation. I would love to hear a good reason NOT to play metaknight.

It's called a playstyle.
Different people play in different ways, and metaknight has an optimal playstyle, which not everyone likes or is good with, i personally hate having to charge in like that.

 

[illboyzeus]

It's called a playstyle.
Different people play in different ways, and metaknight has an optimal playstyle, which not everyone likes or is good with, i personally hate having to charge in like that.

so right from the gate because of your playstyle you are giving yourself a disadvantage. Makes sense.

 

[Zankoku]

so right from the gate because of your playstyle you are giving yourself a disadvantage. Makes sense.

Meta Knight merely has a kinda good fsmash, making him unoptimal Azen-wise.

 

[aeghrur]

I say its easy to block and punish the tornado because in my experience, it IS easy to block and punish the tornado. The reason i trivialize the reasons are because they are trivial.
MK does not have broken enough matches to warrant a ban.
"MK isn't fun" Has no bearing on a competitive game.
MK does not make any more characters unviable than other top tiers.
Lots of MK players does not mean that it damages the metagame, it prompts the players of other characters to find ways around it, and develop more techniques.
I'm a bit pressed to find any other arguments i've heard recently that are even close to making sense.

Experience doesn't really count for much... =/ And please, state the reasons because some might not work except against bad metaknights.

MK does have broken enough matches... as in no even ones.

I agree with the MK isn't fun has no bearing thing.

MK doesn't really make characters unviable as much as it makes the counterpick system unviable.

Lots of MK players means it takes away the players from other characters thus stagnating their metagames. It's going to take a long time to develop a counter if only a handful of people try to come up with something.

 

[brinboy789]

so right from the gate because of your playstyle you are giving yourself a disadvantage. Makes sense.

I definitely feel Snake has the advantage on Metaknight. Metaknight has some nasty things on him. When Snake is in the air, Metaknight's aerial pressure can really put the hurt on him. However, on the ground I think Snake has a definite advantage, and it's very possible to avoid getting in the air for most of the match. Snake's camping is really hard for any character without a projectile to stop, and Metaknight is no exception.

My general gameplay vs Meta is pretty simple but very effective. I force Metaknight to approach using grenades, and when he approaches I do one of several things.

1. I dash backwards, turn around and Ftilt. If it doesn't hit, it keeps him away.
2. I dash grab, since a lot of people run at Snake and shield, expecting the Ftilt.
3. I Snakedash. Snakedashing beats every approach in the game, and it's nearly impossible to punish if you don't expect it.
4. And the obvious, Ftilt.

There's not much Metaknight can do about this strategy besides play really perfect and capitalize perfectly when Snake is in the air. Even then, it takes WAY longer for Metaknight to kill Snake, it's really unbalanced in the amount of effort Metaknight has to do compared to Snake. THEN you have Snake's grab game, which normally leads me to around 40-50 damage, at the very least normally 30 damage, and if I'm REALLY off, only 12 ish.

And even though Snake gets hurt in the air by Meta, he has a ton of options to counter with, more so than other characters. He can hold grenades, do a momentum switch, drop C4, mix in random Bairs, Nairs and even Dairs.

In terms of edgeguarding obviously Meta wins, but Snake can edgeguard Meta perhaps the best out of any character, or at least close. Bait him to use his up B, double jump C4 explosion kills at around 80 something. It's really silly. You can edgehog, hope they use their up B which 90% of the time they do, and do a ledgehop Bair. At high percents, this is an instant kill since Bair is so strong.

This next one is a Jesiah original strat . Grab the ledge, let him use his Up B then jump towards him and airdodge the glide attack. They will have to land on the stage, which is a free Dair. Dair is the ultimate punishing move, and because it does I think around 28% damage and has incredible knockback, I've seen it kill starting at ridiculously low percents, like 50 (before the first hit of the dair)

Also, even on most counterpicks I feel Snake has the advantage. It's true that Metaknight can outmanuever Snake on most stages, but on some he stands no chance. Take Norfair for example. If Snake starts off with the lead, there is no way Meta can approach him on the bottom most platform. It's too small, and shieldcamping combined with Usmash spam almost always results in Meta getting swatted away. Not to mention, most of the time they try to tornado and you just shield it, grab and Dthrow. Anywhere they go on that platform is a free Ftilt for Snake after the Dthrow. It's not hard for Snake to start with the lead either. If Meta gets the lead it can be a problem, since the platforms are nice for him. Even then he's bound to get hit by SOME projectile though.

Castle Siege- Advantage: Snake. It's so big Snake's never gonna die, there are so many places to camp on that stage. It's easy for him to manuever also as oppose to other smaller stages.

Luigi's Mansion- Advantage: Snake. This is debatable obviously, but he locks Meta down with Grenades horribly in the lower section, not to mention when the stage is completely broken it's like another FD which is hell for Meta vs Snake.

Corneria- Advantage: Snake. Meta stands no chance here.

Rainbow Cruise- Advantage: Metaknight. Just due to manueverability and how badly Snake can get gimped here, I don't think Snake has a good chance of winning.

Pokemon Stadium 1- Advantage: Snake. Stage is a bit like Castle Siege in the way it plays I feel. Big, Snake can manuever well and camp certain parts really well.

Pirate Ship- Advantage: Snake. One of the ultimate camping stages for Snake, and Meta dies pretty easily off the top. Needs to avoid the water though.

All neutrals Snake wins on, Battlefield is the closest Metaknight gets to winning, and even then if he gets caught on a platform in a Dthrow it's an auto infinite if Snake doesn't mess up, so that's just another advantage for Snake.

Really, I don't think Meta does that well vs Snake. I think it's 60-40 in Snake's favor, even though a better Metaknight can definitely beat a better Snake.

This matchup reminds me of Sheik vs Marth in Melee, but only a bit opposite. Sheik vs Marth at lower levels of play put Sheik at a huge advantage, but as the skill levels increased the matchup became more even. I think for Snake vs MK, Snake definitely wins at higher levels of play if the Snake is good at camping and abuses all of Snake's traits that make him Snake.

This brings me to another point. Many people are beginning to think Snake is not nearly as good as Metaknight because he can be edgeguarded well, he has problems in the air and some other silly weaknesses.

Fact is, Snake is not that far behind Metaknight at all. Metaknight can't deal 21% damage with a very, very, very broken attack. When Snake Dthrows someone it's automatically 12, usually around 30 %, and if you're good on average between 40-50 damage. Metaknight can't do this.

His killing power makes it so easy for him to get kills, and while Meta doesn't have to work THAT hard to get kills, Snake's ease of kills is just such a help. Combine that with the fact that Snake's traps are nearly impossible to stop, and you have yourself what is possibly the best character. An example for you all.

If someone is at 110% and they've just gotten up from the ledge or for some reason they're near the ledge, 80% chance they are dead, maybe 85%. All you have to do is Ftilt their shield once. If they roll, Utilt. If they stand there, grab and that is GUARANTEED free KO. If they jump, Utilt. There's just nothing they can do to escape besides try and dash grab you, but you can't shield in your initial dash animation so Utilt beats that too. If you grab and Dthrow and they are near the edge, there is nothing they can do to escape a Dthrow.

It just looks like Metaknight is better than Snake because he's easier to use, and he's nearly unpunishable. It doesn't matter though. Snake is much more punishable than Metaknight, but his advantages far outweigh his ability to be punished, and he has much much more room for punishment than MK does anyways. Snake lives forever, he doesn't care about taking 50-75% damage from being edgeguarded. MK can't be edgegaurded well, but it doesn't matter due to how much quicker he gets killed than Snake.

I am in the opinion that Snake is the best game, but people are blinded by MK's ease of use. Example: Snake can't go around Ftilting everything like MK can, because Meta's is unpunishable and with some characters you can punish Snake's. He still has options though that are BETTER than MK's. Instead of Ftilting the shield, you grab. So, Meta has Ftilted the shield and gotten away unpunished, and now Snake has a grab which can lead to death at higher percents or ridiculous damage at lower percents. Advantage? Snake.



This is Jesiah, I'm done here.

^^^ = amazing post by jesiah.

 

[Naucitos]

illboy, that doesen't even make any sense. Your play style gives you a disadvantage? All of your play is determined by your play style, its pretty much the biggest factor in a match, of course it determines how well you're going to do with characters

EDIT: Sry brin, one matchup discussion between two characters really isn't that pertinent to this discussion.

Aegh, state the reasons that i can punish the tornado..?
Having no even matches on its own does not make someone bannable, his matches aren't one sided, almost any character has a decent chance of beating him, most of his matchups are 60-40

 

[illboyzeus]

no you were implying that your playstyle impeded the you being able to even play metaknight, thus putting you at an immediate disadvantage since metaknight is better than everyone.

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. Nope, never. There is one way to beat Magneto, run away. But you can only run away for so long. All Magneto needs is one low short, which is a one frame move, to beat you. He infinites/resets one character, kills it, guard breaks the one coming in, kills it, guard breaks the last one, kills it. Done. Magneto is a class above every character in the game, but people still find ways to fight him.

Which completely defeats your whole argument of saying the only way to beat Magneto is to run away doesn't it?
Mind you Magneto has the easiest methods of destroying your whole team.
Storm, Cable and Sentinel also had their own methods (though it was more difficult than Magneto's and not necessarily an ensured kill liker Magneto).
But by no means did he absolutely destroy everyone below him.

4. Banning a character that doesn't have those attributes is what stagnates the meta-game. Some characters are bad, end of story. You can't play Dan in CVS, you can't play Sean in 3S, and you can't play Pichu in Melee. Hell, you can't play half the cast in Marvel, but that doesn't lead them to ban Magneto, because doing that would cause the game's advancement to come to a screeching halt. Keep away strategies were invented to stop Magneto, and various parry strategies were developed as a way to fight Chun. Banning a character that doesn't meet the criteria I described won't help advance the Metagame, it will stifle it.

because of the fact that when you face Magneto, at worst you have 3 other characters that you can use to defeat him.
you have 4 characters that dominante the entire cast of marvel. This is much more favorable instead of having 1 character doing complete dominance (which is what Akuma did.
if you have 4 broken characters its not an issue.
When you have 1 broken character beating everyone else is when you have an issue.

Metaknight in himself is easily the best character. The degree to which he affects the game, remains to be seen.

5. Have you thought about the fact that Sonic is a bad character, and maybe you should learn someone else (non-MK of course) to help you fight MK? It takes time to find effective strategies, and instead of spending time trying to get MK banned, take that time into advancing your game against Metaknight.

Sonic vs MK is at worst 80-20 Metaknights advantage. no amount of advancement will change that fact.
The best thing to do is switch characters.
Mind you Sonic was brought up as an example not an actual point in the debate.

6. First of all, Falcon isn't low tier. Second of all SilentSpectre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>G-reg. And no, 3S is not balanced. Chun-Li ***** Hugo for free on paper, but it's the player with vision and dedication that allows a character like Hugo to whoop on Chun, which is probably Hugo's worst match up.

big deal. Thats like saying, get better and you'll win.
Mind you Akuma is technically beatable.
you just have to be much more skilled than the Akuma player. I have seen Balrog's perfect Akuma users because they were that much better.
Doesn't change the fact that Akuma was a ban worthy character.

7. And BUM, AZ, Forward, Azen, Lucien, and several other players are counter-examples.

Who cares?
If Daigo goes to SF2, ***** everyone using Akuma with Chun Li, does this change the fact that Akuma is ban worthy? No.
That is a case in which the player skill overcomes that extremely hard matchup. It would not change the fact that the character would or would not be ban worthy.

Why do people keep saying, "learn to player." That assumes everyone is bad and focuses solely dont he idea of being beatable as a criteria of being banned.
A character does not have to be broken like Akuma to be banned.
Akuma wasn't just banned because he was overpowered. It was because he caused extreme overcentralization and wrecked the metagame.

if we went by the definition of being beatable,, then nothing should be banned, especially not Akuma.

 

[aeghrur]

Aegh, state the reasons that i can punish the tornado..?
Having no even matches on its own does not make someone bannable, his matches aren't one sided, almost any character has a decent chance of beating him, most of his matchups are 60-40

Ah, nvm, screw the tornado. Some characters can punish it, some can't. The main thing is that Metaknight is freaking hard to punish.

Having no even matches kills a major part of the game, counterpicks. Having no bad stages kill of another part of it, counterpick stages. It doesn't matter if they have a decent chance, they get the BEST chance if they choose metaknight against metaknight, no one else. That's why metaknight should be banned, not because he's unbeatable, but because he's not able to be countered, neither by stage nor character. Well, I have an idea this will lead to a whole slippery slope; snake, yoshi, olimar vs MK; and other argued before topics. >_<

 

[brinboy789]

Ah, nvm, screw the tornado. Some characters can punish it, some can't. The main thing is that Metaknight is freaking hard to punish.

Having no even matches kills a major part of the game, counterpicks. Having no bad stages kill of another part of it, counterpick stages. It doesn't matter if they have a decent chance, they get the BEST chance if they choose metaknight against metaknight, no one else. That's why metaknight should be banned, not because he's unbeatable, but because he's not able to be countered, neither by stage nor character. Well, I have an idea this will lead to a whole slippery slope; snake, yoshi, olimar vs MK; and other argued before topics. >_<

see my previous post on this thread

 

[illboyzeus]

Ah, nvm, screw the tornado. Some characters can punish it, some can't. The main thing is that Metaknight is freaking hard to punish.

Having no even matches kills a major part of the game, counterpicks. Having no bad stages kill of another part of it, counterpick stages. It doesn't matter if they have a decent chance, they get the BEST chance if they choose metaknight against metaknight, no one else. That's why metaknight should be banned, not because he's unbeatable, but because he's not able to be countered, neither by stage nor character. Well, I have an idea this will lead to a whole slippery slope; snake, yoshi, olimar vs MK; and other argued before topics. >_<

this is a perfect statement. and yet no one seems to understand having no disadvantage makes a character broken.

 

[aeghrur]

see my previous post on this thread

I read it on the other thread, Mister_E responded to it, I responded to it, go read those. >_>
I don't want to bring up the same argument again when it leads to nothing. I chose not to read that because I read it already okay?

 

[Anther]

people (like anther among others) try to make it seem so easy to: "just block and punish the tornado" or, "just shieldgrab the glide attack" and im really getting tired of it, the stuff you need to do to beat him really isnt as easy as people make it out to be. because if it was, people like plank and dr. mario kart wouldnt be winning.

The thing is, the only person I really see doing that sort of stuff is M2k XD. I never see anyone point their shields and then release and chase his landing spot, nor do I see anyone actively punish his glide attack. I'm not saying he isn't broken, but people also need to start using the simple effective things against him as a start...

I'll post better later =[

 

[Naucitos]

Yes, if you are not good with the way a character plays, you are obviously going to be at an immediate disadvantage.
Ill, thats just like your magneto example, you have the BEST chance with magneto, in mario kart 64 you have the BEST chance with yoshi, in melee you had the BEST chance with fox, in 64 with ness.
If MK was banned, you'd have the best chance with snake.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Akuma wasn't just banned because he was overpowered. It was because he caused extreme overcentralization and wrecked the metagame.

I think this is an interesting point that is too often overlooked. A character being overpowered has no direct effect on the metagame. If nobody good played said character, there would obviously be no problem leaving them alone (see Japan). But the problem arises when good people start playing said character, and the game overcentralizes around beating him.

It is this overcentralization that people are trying to prevent when banning the character. Being an overpowered character is mearly the cause of this overcentralization, but is not actually the problem being addressed. But what if you could get the same overcentralization, without the character being "Akuma" broken. What if the character just has no bad matchups or even matchups? (yet to be determined I know, but this is hypothetical.) Well, once again if the good players weren't playing him, it wouldn't matter (just like Akuma!), but when the good players starte playing as him to gain that slight advantage against each other then...it cause that same overcentralization problem. "Playing to win" causes everyone to start playing that character (since he's the safest choice), meaning that having advantages (even larger advantages than said character) against other "less important" characters is less valuable, and it snowballs until everyone is either playing that character, or is a scrub for not playing that character.

It's the same problem, just with a different cause. The cause of the problem really is MK's popularity, combined with his matchups, lack of bad stages, ect, not being "broken" like Akuma, but it's the same kind of overcentralization that bans are supposed to prevent. What's most frustrating about this, is that if we were to ban him "popularity" would certainly be part of our criteria (which is flawed because it punishes a character just because many people play them), but at the same time popularity is doing exactly what it's supposed to do under the "play to win" mindset (so the problem is not going to go away).

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'm curious why so many Sonic players are invested in this thread. Wtf.

 

[AssaultX]

Adding on to Naucito:

Likewise, if you are not good against the way a character plays, then you are in a disadvantage just as much. From my views, if we ban Meta Knight, many smashers will neglect to still practice to fare well against him, meaning that he will be just as good as before because no one knows how to fight Meta Knight anymore.

 

[aeghrur]

I'm curious why so many Sonic players are invested in this thread. Wtf.

I like to debate. I'm bored and procrastinating.

 

[lordXblade]

Which completely defeats your whole argument of saying the only way to beat Magneto is to run away doesn't it?
Mind you Magneto has the easiest methods of destroying your whole team.
Storm, Cable and Sentinel also had their own methods (though it was more difficult than Magneto's and not necessarily an ensured kill liker Magneto).
But by no means did he absolutely destroy everyone below him.

because of the fact that when you face Magneto, at worst you have 3 other characters that you can use to defeat him.
you have 4 characters that dominante the entire cast of marvel. This is much more favorable instead of having 1 character doing complete dominance (which is what Akuma did.
if you have 4 broken characters its not an issue.
When you have 1 broken character beating everyone else is when you have an issue.

Metaknight in himself is easily the best character. The degree to which he affects the game, remains to be seen.

Sonic vs MK is at worst 80-20 Metaknights advantage. no amount of advancement will change that fact.
The best thing to do is switch characters.
Mind you Sonic was brought up as an example not an actual point in the debate.

big deal. Thats like saying, get better and you'll win.
Mind you Akuma is technically beatable.
you just have to be much more skilled than the Akuma player. I have seen Balrog's perfect Akuma users because they were that much better.
Doesn't change the fact that Akuma was a ban worthy character.


Who cares?
If Daigo goes to SF2, ***** everyone using Akuma with Chun Li, does this change the fact that Akuma is ban worthy? No.
That is a case in which the player skill overcomes that extremely hard matchup. It would not change the fact that the character would or would not be ban worthy.

Why do people keep saying, "learn to player." That assumes everyone is bad and focuses solely dont he idea of being beatable as a criteria of being banned.
A character does not have to be broken like Akuma to be banned.
Akuma wasn't just banned because he was overpowered. It was because he caused extreme overcentralization and wrecked the metagame.

if we went by the definition of being beatable,, then nothing should be banned, especially not Akuma.

A scrub playing a broken character playing a Pro using another isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Hayao, a Hugo player, beating top tier Chun's like Nuki, MOV, and Rikimaru. What would happen if players like Daigo and Otochun played Akuma? They wouldn't lose to anyone except other Akumas.

Storm and Sent are broken, but not as broken as Magneto. Every 1st place team for the past 2+ years has had Magneto on point. Whether it's MSS, MSP, Rowtron, or any other Mag team you wanna throw in there, Magneto is the absolute central character, and what is the most effective way to beat that by far? Pick Magneto and rush them down harder than they rush you down.

Better players will always win, that much is certain. You won't see a mid-tier MK player beating Azen, however, you had mid-tier ST players pick Akuma and beat John Choi and the like. Even Daigo loses to players who aren't near his level, but play Akuma. MK is NOT that broken.

 

[Tenki]

I'm curious why so many Sonic players are invested in this thread. Wtf.

It's a weird demographic. The 20 or so Sonic mains that actively participate in/keep up to date with the current metagame as it's discussed in SWF are generally above-average players who can take top 8 in tourneys they attend.

da KID feels strongly about this debate, and participates much in it.
I'm of the opinion that there needs to be more time (...and complete frame data as staple proof) before MK warrants a ban.

also, most SWF Sonic mains are spammers.

 

[infomon]

I'm curious why so many Sonic players are invested in this thread. Wtf.

Also, we're notorious for spamming, flaming, and never ever giving up even when the odds against us are abysmal lol so this thread is perfect.

 

[Naucitos]

hopefully it just doesen't turn into never giving up even when the argument is clearly lost. IMO, one of the main things in favor of banning is that most people just don't care enough to actually argue the hordes of people who think he should be banned

 

[St. Viers]

Only problem i have with that, St., is that MK can't be on the same level as snake while simultaneously being the best >_>

Yes he can Look at DA KID's example--the one I was quoting from. same deal ^_^

 

[ShadowLink84]

A scrub playing a broken character playing a Pro using another isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Hayao, a Hugo player, beating top tier Chun's like Nuki, MOV, and Rikimaru. What would happen if players like Daigo and Otochun played Akuma? They wouldn't lose to anyone except other Akumas.

And? you are saying that if you are good enough, you can beat MK. If Daigo and Otochun are playing Akuma, then play better than them and you will win.

Again this does not change the fact that Akuma is a banned character.

Storm and Sent are broken, but not as broken as Magneto. Every 1st place team for the past 2+ years has had Magneto on point. Whether it's MSS, MSP, Rowtron, or any other Mag team you wanna throw in there, Magneto is the absolute central character, and what is the most effective way to beat that by far? Pick Magneto and rush them down harder than they rush you down.

This is true, it makes sense to use the best character against magneto which is Magneto himself. but mind you, if he has an advantage over the next three, it is not a major advantage. Similar to in melee, you had 4 or 5 dominating characters that did well against each other.
Magneto is a great character, better than the next 3. But its not the same as comparing MK to Snake.

Mind you Magneto does not have the ability to cause overcentralization, there are 3 other characters who you can use.
MK is not overpowered at all. He has no weaknesses.
magneto is overpowered and has no weaknesses. But he can be dealt with and does not cause overcentralization to the degree that MK does currently.
Mind you we must also take into account MK's effect on the CP system.

So its just 1 character as opposed to 3 or 4 dominating the tournament scene.

Better players will always win, that much is certain. You won't see a mid-tier MK player beating Azen, however, you had mid-tier ST players pick Akuma and beat John Choi and the like. Even Daigo loses to players who aren't near his level, but play Akuma. MK is NOT that broken.

No one is saying MK is comparable to akuma in terms of brokenness.
What is being cmopared is the reasons for a ban.
Overcentralization.
The effect on the Cp system.
Metagame stagnation etc etc.

 

[brinboy789]

lol guys do you know why this thread has advanced 589 pages without any gain? because nobody laid out the ban criteria >_>. not your opinionated ban criteria, an official criteria, if there even is one. and if there isnt one, then how can you ban a char? and if there is, then i'd like to see it.

 

[M15t3R E]

The SBR has never come up with their ban criteria, and if they did and it didn't look good for MK, anti-ban people would criticize the SBR for being one-sided. In the end, there still wouldn't be any gain.

 

[ShadowLink84]

brinboy if you haven't figured it out now you won't figure it out ever. -_-;

 

[salaboB]

lol guys do you know why this thread has advanced 589 pages without any gain? because nobody laid out the ban criteria >_>. not your opinionated ban criteria, an official criteria, if there even is one. and if there isnt one, then how can you ban a char? and if there is, then i'd like to see it.

And do you know why it hasn't ended with everyone agreeing he doesn't need to be banned? Because there are no criteria for when to not ban a character. Not your opinionated statements of when they can't be banned, but actual "This situation is not a problem". And if you can't pinpoint when it's healthier for the community to not ban one, how can you say it's not time?

 

[brinboy789]

brinboy if you haven't figured it out now you won't figure it out ever. -_-;

...there has been no ban criteria on this thread or on the over 9000 threads about banning MK ever. i have been on this topic alot, and you of all people should know.

And do you know why it hasn't ended with everyone agreeing he doesn't need to be banned? Because there are no criteria for when to not ban a character. Not your opinionated statements of when they can't be banned, but actual "This situation is not a problem". And if you can't pinpoint when it's healthier for the community to not ban one, how can you say it's not time?

people people calm down i was just pointing something out >_>

 

[Iwan]

Yes, if you are not good with the way a character plays, you are obviously going to be at an immediate disadvantage.
Ill, thats just like your magneto example, you have the BEST chance with magneto, in mario kart 64 you have the BEST chance with yoshi, in melee you had the BEST chance with fox, in 64 with ness.
If MK was banned, you'd have the best chance with snake.

Snake has bad match ups. Metaknight does not.