GofG
Smash Champion
Smashboards isn't for people who have lives. Get the **** out.
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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
^LMAO!!!^
10 char
10 char
mariofanpm12
Smash Ace
Meta Knight Ban Discussion Thread= Spam Fest
If there can't be a poll to decide this then perhaps there should be some sort of contest you can enter, where you not only vote, but must also give a 10+ line post with your reasoning. That way, we'll get less spam and more input from intelligent posters.
If there can't be a poll to decide this then perhaps there should be some sort of contest you can enter, where you not only vote, but must also give a 10+ line post with your reasoning. That way, we'll get less spam and more input from intelligent posters.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
...ur a spam fest...
ur mom's a spam fest
GofG
Smash Champion
your mom's face is a spam fest.
Fletch
Smash Master
Your dad's a spam fest?
GofG
Smash Champion
your dad was a spam fest last night
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
Just a question...
Wouldn't the slippery slope theory applied on the first page also apply to things when fighting MK.
In some way or another if you get what I'm saying that is.
At the highest level of Metagame, there are still chances MK can lose, and even if they're below a 50% chance, they're still pretty good when you think about it.
Wouldn't the slippery slope theory applied on the first page also apply to things when fighting MK.
In some way or another if you get what I'm saying that is.
At the highest level of Metagame, there are still chances MK can lose, and even if they're below a 50% chance, they're still pretty good when you think about it.
I think it would be a better idea to nerf MK rather than ban him altogether. I think that if all of his b moves were prohibited from being used that it would be a good compromise. That would mean nerfed recovery, gimping options, shield pressure, KO options, and more importantly stop most of the whining and flaming going around. It would be a universal matchup nerf that would probably even give him a few new counterpick characters. I personally think it is a waste to ban a character outright if altering the moveset/taking out really overpowered tactics would be a better solution. Old Sagat without tiger shots and Akuma without an aerial fireball would not be broken so maybe MK without b moves would be worth a shot.
post of the year. Someone give this guy an award.
Sorry to tell you but if not getting hit was easy, matches would last a whole lot longer
And as for captain faclon, which of his moves out prioritize the tornado. Or even nair
mariofanpm12
Smash Ace
*Sigh...*
Seriously, are we getting ANYWHERE?
Even with the 40 Posts Per Page setting on, we have 167 pages of posts, and I'll guess that 70% of them are irrelevant.
Seriously, are we getting ANYWHERE?
Even with the 40 Posts Per Page setting on, we have 167 pages of posts, and I'll guess that 70% of them are irrelevant.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Be honest:
Is the primary problem with MK the fact that he can be picked up in less than two weeks and played at the highest level?
Is the primary problem with MK the fact that he can be picked up in less than two weeks and played at the highest level?
No the problem would be that he's better than the rest of the cast.
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
Somebody has to be the best character, it's just the way it is.
The primary problem is that MK's potential at the highest level of play seems currently to be enough above every other character's potential, making the only viable option in MK match to play MK yourself.
Just a suggestion, but perhaps making it standard to have both meta and non meta tournies at the same event is a temporary solution? It encourages the development of other char's meta games, while at the same time providing for the most competitive gameplay possible in brawl, by allowing non mk users a venue, while at the same time allowing for a large base of competitive players the opportunity to use their char. Also, it would be the fastest way to get comparable results ^_^
Granted, it would be more work, but if tournaments were well run, it wouldn't even take too much time...
Just a suggestion, but perhaps making it standard to have both meta and non meta tournies at the same event is a temporary solution? It encourages the development of other char's meta games, while at the same time providing for the most competitive gameplay possible in brawl, by allowing non mk users a venue, while at the same time allowing for a large base of competitive players the opportunity to use their char. Also, it would be the fastest way to get comparable results ^_^
Granted, it would be more work, but if tournaments were well run, it wouldn't even take too much time...
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Yes, but would we care if he was as difficult to master as Ice Climbers?
EDIT: Or Pokemon Trainer?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
We would care, but it wouldn't be apparent. You'd have maybe one or two people doing it and learning as they go... and even then, if they were difficult to use it may be that technical ability required was more than enough of a weakness.
Wolf, theoretically, could be the best character in the game simply because he can shine through everything. By the time you are out of hitstun, he can do it again. Why don't we ban wolf? Because people can't do it, and if they tried, they'd end up failing often enough to be punished.
ftl
Smash Journeyman
When it got to the point where he was dominating.
Before then, we wouldn't know that he really is better - theorycraft << results.
It would probably take a couple of years, but a couple of years down the road the same thing would happen. Unless he was SO hard to master that too few players could actually play him to SHOW that he actually was this good. (If he was difficult enough to master that only, say, Azen and M2K could ever do it, we'd just say that it's the player and not the character. )
This is a poor example. Wolf can't Shine through shield, and the hit portion of the Shine is pretty late into the attack. Also, unlike Wolf, Marth's reversal can kill.
That's rediculous... You still have to be a high-level player, yourself in order to be able to play with the big boys. Otherwise we'd see random people winning tournaments instead of M2K.
I gave up on this thread a while ago. lol
Ryusuta
Smash Master
I still find it amusing when I see those "This sig is 100% Meta-free" images, since there's a picture of Meta Knight right on the picture.
The primary problem is that he's making the other characters even more unviable than they were before, and majority of character used are MKs. Which by itself is not a problem to the metagame, as in the most skilled will still win matches.
However, people get bored by MK dittos. People do not play Brawl to get bored. They quit. We need people for a metagame. And THAT is what I believe to be the problem, not so much "bad players beat good players because they use MK"
However, people get bored by MK dittos. People do not play Brawl to get bored. They quit. We need people for a metagame. And THAT is what I believe to be the problem, not so much "bad players beat good players because they use MK"
That's why I added it. Irony and contradiction amuse me.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
M2K is kinda a bad example because he uses MK...
It is true that you still have to be a high-level player to play with the big boys.
One of the biggest complaints about MK seems to be that he is a "pick up and play" character. Overswarm is not the only high-level player who could play him after a couple weeks. Even if this isn't relevent in a ban discussion, it seems like MK's simplicity of use as a primary and a secondary causes more problems than his many great attributes.
Metro Knight
Smash Ace
I play MK to beat people who I can't beat with my Link.
Total Matches with Link = 3000
Total matches with MK = maybe 300.
And the thing is, I can beat people who can beat me, oh 80% of the time, if I swap to MK? I dunno, MK seems like a bit much.
M2k said, "a ban wouldn't be fair for the MK players", but him staying isn't really fair to everyone else who likes to play at a competitive level.
I think the easiest solution is just to have MK ban tournaments, and normal tournaments, and keep track of both tier lists separately. We just need a thread, a person to update the thread, and people willing to host MK banned tournaments.
Total Matches with Link = 3000
Total matches with MK = maybe 300.
And the thing is, I can beat people who can beat me, oh 80% of the time, if I swap to MK? I dunno, MK seems like a bit much.
M2k said, "a ban wouldn't be fair for the MK players", but him staying isn't really fair to everyone else who likes to play at a competitive level.
I think the easiest solution is just to have MK ban tournaments, and normal tournaments, and keep track of both tier lists separately. We just need a thread, a person to update the thread, and people willing to host MK banned tournaments.
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
Fair is a tough word to use. You can say it isn't fair to some, but life isn't fair. You use what you're given. We were given MK, so use him. Find ways to counter him, don't just complain about it... and yes, he does have his weaknesses.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
What weaknesses?
All I can think of is his weight...which is negligible considering there are characters even lighter than him.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
lol... its funny you should say that... what with being a MK main and all...
∫unk
Smash Master
Genius. You should apply for the SBR.
As many times as this has been posted, I have still yet to see any elaboration on this. So please, tell us, what are Meta Knight's weaknesses? I'm asking nicely.
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
It's not logically necessary. It's just that the alternatives are really, really improbable.
@Overswarm: I am so third-maining Wolf now. o_0
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
wow... I'm honored guys. Quoting me 4 posts in a row, that's just wonderful.
Well... let's go ahead and start with the second post first... I did forget to change that. I don't actually main MK anymore, I main Kirby. I enjoy MK, he's my favorite character to play as, but I main Kirby. My apologies for not changing that.
Then the third one. I would, but I'm not going to.
Now for the first and third. His weight is in fact a weakness, yeah. At one point there was a thread in the MK discussion board that had a list of moves that can counter MT, and, as I remember, there were a lot of them. All of his B moves have a recovery time if they're used in the air, leaving a lot of chances for mess ups, even if they don't happen often. He doesn't have a lot of kill moves, even if he is good off of the stage. He does minimal damage with a lot of his moves... I'll think up more later, but I'll let you tear these down first, mkay?
Well... let's go ahead and start with the second post first... I did forget to change that. I don't actually main MK anymore, I main Kirby. I enjoy MK, he's my favorite character to play as, but I main Kirby. My apologies for not changing that.
Then the third one. I would, but I'm not going to.
Now for the first and third. His weight is in fact a weakness, yeah. At one point there was a thread in the MK discussion board that had a list of moves that can counter MT, and, as I remember, there were a lot of them. All of his B moves have a recovery time if they're used in the air, leaving a lot of chances for mess ups, even if they don't happen often. He doesn't have a lot of kill moves, even if he is good off of the stage. He does minimal damage with a lot of his moves... I'll think up more later, but I'll let you tear these down first, mkay?
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
1. B moves have recovery time when done in the air
This "weakness" ]rarely ever comes into play because these moves are fast enough so that they are unpunishable upon finishing. And even if he's an idiot and screws it up (which is really hard to do), he'll only get punished with like...two hits before being able to run away and start this crap again. This isn't something I need to explain, everyone has experienced this.
2. Not enough kills moves
He has enough kill moves which are versatile enough to be used in a lot of situations and are fast enough to be nearly unpunishable. And really, all he needs the kill is the Shuttle Loop, the super-armored near-instant attack that, even if blocked, can be followed up immediately with a glide attack which, even if that is blocked, can be immediately followed up by a d-smash.
3. Minimal damage with a lot of his moves
I've seen MKs do upwards of 50+% damage in around 8 seconds. On the other hand, strong characters like Ike or Ganondorf whose attacks can do upwards of 20+% damage per hit have to work their ***** off to get an opponent to 50+% damage. Oh yeah, his moves are sooooo weak.
Yes, his weight is definitely not helping him out all the time, but exactly how much does it hurt him? I mean, in some ways, it can turn around and help him. Like, for one, light weight can make it easier to fly out of possible "combos" when hit. Like say for example, Wolf grabs (Assuming he can even get close enough to the little *******. lol), does a couple knees to his face, and then down throws. Against MOST characters, (emphasis on "most") Wolf would then be able to do a quick AAA at lower damages, or an FSmash at higher damages. But with MK's weight, he actually flies further away, making it harder to rack up damage. Obviously the light weight will be a disadvantage at higher damages, but it becomes more difficult to get him to that point. You see what I'm saying?
Again, assuming this is at a very high level of play, most good players aren't going to just spam the B moves like crazy in the air and leave themselves open. I will admit, when used in the air incorrectly, Meta Knight is a sitting duck just waiting to be hit. BUT, a good Meta Knight will just wait to use his Up B at the appropriate time to get the quick kill effectively, rarely leaving himself open.
As for his damage, the low damage really doesn't seem like it's all the low when he's pulling off those quick aerials so fast, it actually feels like it's doing more to you. I've gone from 0-60 in one aerial stunt from a MK before. Now, maybe he was just going all ninja crazy from some freak accident or something, I dunno, and maybe that's not usually possible with him, but it can be done.
Thanks for trying though. You're the first one. lol
The moves that counter tornado are often laggy(like smashes) and often aren't mobile(being ground moves), so the MK can draw in, bait the move, and then punish.
Also, the B-time recovery move is a drawback that the MK user has to overcome, not one we can exploit. An extreme example is like Olimar's ghost Pikmin glitch, which we can now replicate. Yes, all the pikmin become useless, but it won't happen unless Olimar himself choose to pull of specific inputs. MK won't choose to tornado or drill or cape in the air unless its unpunishable, and if he chooses not to, there's nothing we can do about it. His aerials certainly make up enough of a usable moveset to use in the air, the specials are just luxuries that he doesn't have to use.
He doesn't have a lot of kill moves, but those kill moves are fairly reliable. Furthermore, his kill moves are distinctly seperate from his "damaging" moves, so he won't have to stale his KO moves to put his opponents in KO range. The MK just has to not spam tornado the whole time, or use D-smash constantly.
how is the damage minimal? Tornado, fair, bair, uair, and a few others rack up damage fast.
His weight is in fact a weakness. Usmashers(and u-tilters) KO MK pretty early.
However, lots of Usmashers coincidentally have bad recoveries(Snake, Olimar, Ganondorf). So techinically, while it is a weakness, a lot of character who can exploit this also are vulnerable to MK's strengths. Nontheless, its still a weakness. Just not very easy to exploit.
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