The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Steel]

Tis sir, tis.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Those characters are roughly even with him, though. Statistically all of Marth's matchups are either "good" or "neutral" (I don't care what anyone says, 45:55 in either direction is too close to even to claim a clear advantage to the 55, even if Marth is the one with it).

At least he has a disadvantage at all. Meta Knight's matchups range from "good" to "REALLY good".

 

[Ryusuta]

I still want Meta Knight legal so more Yoshi players will finally come out of the woodwork.

 

[Master Raven]

I'm glad to see people are comparing MK to Old Sagat because he's MUCH closer to him than he ever will be to Akuma.

 

[Flayl]

MK doesn't have a projectile, he's really not close to either.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've been making that comparison since forever.

 

[NeoCrono]

I've been making that comparison since forever.

You have been saying that for awhile now lol

 

[aeghrur]

Those characters are roughly even with him, though. Statistically all of Marth's matchups are either "good" or "neutral" (I don't care what anyone says, 45:55 in either direction is too close to even to claim a clear advantage to the 55, even if Marth is the one with it).

Marth is 63:35 to 70:30 against Sonic.
MK is around 80:20 to 90:10.
Heck, does Marth even have an 80:20?
Oh, MK is, from what I've heard, might be false, 90:10 to Luigi too. o_O
Yeah... MK has **** match ups... Marth doesn't. Marth has lag... MK doesn't.

 

[AlexX]

He hardly ***** anyone, though. He has a few neutrals, a ton of 60:40's, a good amount of 65:35's, and then a few **** matches against characters who are hardly ever used in tournaments. Meta has a ton of **** matches, and on top of that doesn't really have any weaknesses like Marth does.

See the difference?

You completely misunderstood me.

I never ONCE said Marth was as good as MK, I was just saying that he has no bad matchups, so OS's argument that everyone else can be counterpicked isn't true.

EDIT: You people need to read my posts. I never once said that Marth was as good as MK!

 

[AlAxe]

I still want Meta Knight legal so more Yoshi players will finally come out of the woodwork.

Yoshi isn't that great against MK. He actually has a distinct disadvantage vs. MK. Yoshi just does better against MK than the rest of the low/mid tier characters which have **** matchups vs. MK. Point is it's still a bad matchup for Yoshi.

 

[Master Raven]

MK doesn't have a projectile, he's really not close to either.

... It has nothing to do with their abilities. The comparison is to do with their effect on the cast.

 

[cman]

I still want Meta Knight legal so more Yoshi players will finally come out of the woodwork.

No one is going to pick up Yoshi to have a somewhat not-bad matchup against MK. Yoshi is a very wierd character attribute-wise, with stuff like his his shield and recovery. Because he is so different, he is going to take a long time to learn. Plus, he has a lot of bad matchups against a significant number of characters. MK has none of these problems and does even better vs MK, so no one is going to bother with yoshi. They will instead just second or start maining MK.

 

[Steel]

You completely misunderstood me.

I never ONCE said Marth was as good as MK, I was just saying that he has no bad matchups, so OS's argument that everyone else can be counterpicked isn't true.

EDIT: You people need to read my posts. I never once said that Marth was as good as MK! Stop acting like I did.

When did I even imply that? Marth does have matches not in his favor, whether you see them as neutral or not is just a matter of perception. But that's how the Marth boards see it, he has disadvantageous match ups.

I compared Marth and Meta gameplay wise because opponent's can exploit Marth's weaknesses when they fight him. There really isn't much to exploit with Meta besides the fact that he is light, and that's not really a big deal >_>

 

[Punishment Divine]

I think the thing is, MK is in a very awkward place.

He is like Old Sagat, only we know he unquestionably counters every character. He is also like Akuma, but he doesn't beat characters as hard. Add in the factor that Smash is such a different style fighting game, and we're stuck in an awkward situation where we are not really sure what to do.

The best thing we could do is test the waters, because right now we're pretty much setting the precedent for banning characters in Smash.

So the fact that tournaments are starting to ban MK is great, and I am REALLY liking the results.

 

[AlAxe]

You completely misunderstood me.

I never ONCE said Marth was as good as MK, I was just saying that he has no bad matchups, so OS's argument that everyone else can be counterpicked isn't true.

EDIT: You people need to read my posts. I never once said that Marth was as good as MK! Stop acting like I did!

Marth can be counter picked to at least a nuetral matchup. It's debatable as well that some characters have slight advantages vs. Marth. With MK the only way to gain a nuetral matchup is to play MK yourself. Against Marth there are many characters that can be counterpicked to give you at least an even chance of victory, maybe even a better chance. So OS's argument does hold.

 

[Ryusuta]

A character being weird or hard to learn aren't reasons not to use them competitively. Look at Snake.

And the only significantly bad matches he has would be Marth, Game & Watch, Zelda, and Lucario. Most everyone else he goes 4:6 or better (some people say Link is bad for him, but I haven't seen anything supporting this).

 

[Steel]

I still want Meta Knight legal so more Yoshi players will finally come out of the woodwork.

I still want to see a Yoshi play a good Meta (there are few) who has PLENTY of experience in the match up. It may be close to even to Meta Knights at this point in time because they hardly have any experience against him.

I refuse to believe Yoshi has the proper tools to deal with Meta Knight's zoning. If he can't deal with Marth's.. how does he beat Meta's which is slightly better?

 

[Ryusuta]

Possibly, but we have to base this on CURRENT information, not speculation. And CURRENTLY, all signs point to a neutral match-up, NOT a Meta Knight advantage.

 

[Dojo]

I do really well against Bwett's Yoshi...

 

[AlAxe]

I think the thing is, MK is in a very awkward place.

He is like Old Sagat, only we know he unquestionably counters every character. He is also like Akuma, but he doesn't beat characters as hard. Add in the factor that Smash is such a different style fighting game, and we're stuck in an awkward situation where we are not really sure what to do.

The best thing we could do is test the waters, because right now we're pretty much setting the precedent for banning characters in Smash.

So the fact that tournaments are starting to ban MK is great, and I am REALLY liking the results.

Which tournaments have started banning MK so far? I'd like to see the results to those tournaments too if you know them.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Possibly, but we have to base this on CURRENT information, not speculation. And CURRENTLY, all signs point to a neutral match-up, NOT a Meta Knight advantage.

not really, because theory plays only about half the role in matchup discussion. Why then, have you not seen people like PRiDE beat M2K and others?

@ person above me: there was one tourny result so far posted in this topic, look like two pages back. More tournies are coming up in the next few weeks.

 

[Ryusuta]

Thought they are similar concepts, there's a difference between theory and speculation.

 

[NeoCrono]

These are the results for the Wichita Bi-weekly in which we tested a Metaknight ban. People had expressed interest in seeing what our results would be like (Metaknight has won all Bi-weeklies before this).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5215539#post5215539

1: Karmacide_________Snake
2: KY________________Pit/Falco
3: Nynja_____________Diddy
4: Clel_______________Fox/Marth
5: Zeton_____________Fox
5: Steeler____________Pokemon Trainer/G&W/Lucario
7: ChaosTheory_______Lucas
7: InfernoRage_______ROB/Zelda/G&W/Random/Pikachu/Toon Link
9: Domo_____________Marth/Pit/Olimar
9: Ratman___________Snake
9: ArkiveZero_________Link
9: Attackstorm_______Falco
13: Affinity__________D3/G&W/Marth
13: AlexRooster______G&W/D3
13: Artik____________Snake
13: 4do_____________Marth
17: Zhao____________Toon Link/Lucario
17: 4lorn____________G&W/ROB
17: Tempest_________Toon Link
17: Lil' Azen__________Lucario
17: Fino_____________Olimar
17: 4rce_____________Toon Link
17: Holmes___________Kirby
17: Insane-o-tron_____Mario/Luigi
25: 4ever____________Sonic/Toon Link
25: The Irish Guy______Ice Climbers
25: Tan______________Toon Link

Here goes one tournament with no MK

 

[Punishment Divine]

Thought they are similar concepts, there's a difference between theory and speculation.

Speculation is the art of determining results through theory. pretty much same thing. the point is, Good Yoshis should be dominating an MK filled tourny scene, but they're not

 

[AlAxe]

I don't really see how yoshi could compete vs. MK. The only thing I can see is that Yoshi's super armor negates some of MK's off stage game. But other than that I don't see how Yoshi would be able to deal with MK's zoning, speed, recovery, or priority.

 

[Ryusuta]

Speculation is the art of determining results through theory.

Incorrect. Speculation is forming a hypothesis based on information that is not yet available. Theory is a scientific guess supported by all available information that can't, or hasn't been, specifically tested.

pretty much same thing. the point is, Good Yoshis should be dominating an MK filled tourny scene, but they're not

No one made this claim. I said Yoshi runs EVEN with Meta Knight (which is still pretty good, considering).

 

[Mmac]

His only bad matchups are Game & Watch, Lucario, Marth, Wolf, and ROB, With Link and Zelda being maybes (Still under discussions). Please don't judge off of Ivan's Matchup Chart, he is completely biased against Yoshi and Low Tier Characters in general, and just plain wrong.

The main problem is that while he only has a few disadvantages, he is plagued with nothing but Neutral Matchups, with only just as few advantages. Overall, Yoshi doesn't get destroyed by anyone, but at the same time, he doesn't destroy anyone himself (Unless your name is Ganondorf, Wario, Jigglypuff, and Squirtle).

He still has untapped potential. He could be very rewarding if you learn how to use him greatly.... or a waste of time....

 

[AlAxe]

These are the results for the Wichita Bi-weekly in which we tested a Metaknight ban. People had expressed interest in seeing what our results would be like (Metaknight has won all Bi-weeklies before this).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5215539#post5215539

1: Karmacide_________Snake
2: KY________________Pit/Falco
3: Nynja_____________Diddy
4: Clel_______________Fox/Marth
5: Zeton_____________Fox
5: Steeler____________Pokemon Trainer/G&W/Lucario
7: ChaosTheory_______Lucas
7: InfernoRage_______ROB/Zelda/G&W/Random/Pikachu/Toon Link
9: Domo_____________Marth/Pit/Olimar
9: Ratman___________Snake
9: ArkiveZero_________Link
9: Attackstorm_______Falco
13: Affinity__________D3/G&W/Marth
13: AlexRooster______G&W/D3
13: Artik____________Snake
13: 4do_____________Marth
17: Zhao____________Toon Link/Lucario
17: 4lorn____________G&W/ROB
17: Tempest_________Toon Link
17: Lil' Azen__________Lucario
17: Fino_____________Olimar
17: 4rce_____________Toon Link
17: Holmes___________Kirby
17: Insane-o-tron_____Mario/Luigi
25: 4ever____________Sonic/Toon Link
25: The Irish Guy______Ice Climbers
25: Tan______________Toon Link

My God. It's Beautiful.

 

[Steel]

I don't really see how yoshi could compete vs. MK. The only thing I can see is that Yoshi's super armor negates some of MK's off stage game. But other than that I don't see how Yoshi would be able to deal with MK's zoning, speed, recovery, or priority.

CHAIN GRABS AMIRITE??

Seriously, good meta's aren't going to fall for that stuff. Once they realize how to play against Yoshi they learn to not get grabbed by him. Then what is Yoshi going to do? He has no answers to get past Meta's sword. If Yoshi is so disad'd against Marth, who is not as good of a character but yet so very similar, how does he go even with Meta?

Yoshi's you are being too hopeful. It may not be a **** match, but Meta definitely has the advantage.

 

[Ryusuta]

(Edit: Sorry, double-post.)

 

[Ryusuta]

He still has untapped potential. He could be very rewarding if you learn how to use him greatly.... or a waste of time....

Truer words were hardly spoken. I know it's been a lot of excitement for me.

CHAIN GRABS AMIRITE??

Seriously, good meta's aren't going to fall for that stuff. Once they realize how to play against Yoshi they learn to not get grabbed by him. Then what is Yoshi going to do? He has no answers to get past Meta's sword. If Yoshi is so disad'd against Marth, who is not as good of a character but yet so very similar, how does he go even with Meta?

If you could always avoid being grabbed 100% of the time, Ness wouldn't be looking at 2:8 against Marth. And Yoshi's pivot grab and running grab are a major factor, here.

Yoshi also has two moves that beat Mach Tornado, where many characters don't even have one.

Meta Knight has basically no choice but to play at mid-range, hoping to stay close enough to hit with the sword and far enough not to get grabbed. In the meantime, Yoshi has better aerial maneuverability (significantly so) and pokes and aerials (except down and forward) that come out just as quick as Meta's.

I still always like how people will assume the character they don't like is going to only do one single thing, while the character they DO like is going to play intelligently and with variety.

 

[Mmac]

I refuse to believe Yoshi has the proper tools to deal with Meta Knight's zoning. If he can't deal with Marth's.. how does he beat Meta's which is slightly better?

It's pretty much exactly the same way how we view Toon Link and Link for our matchups. Toon Link is better overall than Link in almost every way, except Range. Because of the lack of Range, Yoshi can get in much easier compared to Link, who used correctly, can shut us down.

It's the same deal here, Marth has much more range and harder to get into than MetaKnight. Just because he's better, he has different aspects that differ into our favour into this matchup. Plus all the other stuff mentioned a Thousand times.


Also just because Yoshi is even against MetaKnight, it doesn't at all mean that Yoshi can slaughter them. He just has a higher chance of winning compared to everyone else. MetaKnight can still just as easily going to win this matchup. You really think justifying Throwing Yoshi into a pit of MetaKnight's and come out on top to prove he's neutral? No, thats to justify an advantage over him!

PS. If that really does happen, I claim advantage

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yoshi has 4 frame pokes?

Really?

I call this in MK's favor slightly BTW.

MK just has more options and better options overall.

Both characters can play smart.

It's just that I don't think Yoshi's CG is enough.

And anyway Yoshi gets ***** by too many other characters to make an impact on the metagame anyway.

He is just too weak regardless of his match-up with MK.

Why do you guys keep saying Marth has more range?

On the ground pokes MK has more range and is a MUCH faster attacker. And safer. In the air Marth barely has more range.

Marth's range over MK is on moves that really don't matter. Like F-smash.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yoshi's you are being too hopeful. It may not be a **** match, but Meta definitely has the advantage.

This.

My God. It's Beautiful.

Truth my friend...

Fight for a better future...let's ban Meta Knight.

I also love how no one even commented on that post about Sirlin's view on Old Sagat two pages ago...

 

[Steel]

Woah woah woah woah... Marth has much more range than Meta Knight?

LMAO, I wish.

 

[aeghrur]

You completely misunderstood me.

I never ONCE said Marth was as good as MK, I was just saying that he has no bad matchups, so OS's argument that everyone else can be counterpicked isn't true.

EDIT: You people need to read my posts. I never once said that Marth was as good as MK!

Yeah, but your using the no bad match up as a justification for either Marth to be banned next. We're saying that won't happen because Marth isn't as good as MK.

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi has 4 frame pokes?

Really?

I call this in MK's favor slightly BTW.

MK just has more options and better options overall.

Both characters can play smart.

It's just that I don't think Yoshi's CG is enough.

He is just too weak regardless of his match-up with MK.

Defining Slight Advantage, Yoshi is 45:55 MetaKnight agreed by both parties. Unless you mean it like 40:60. Also yeah, he's weak strength wise, but thats where his Grab Releases come in. They completely mask his inability to naturally kill at reasonable percents

And anyway Yoshi gets ***** by too many other characters to make an impact on the metagame anyway.

By what characters exactly? Remember, anyone with half a brain can tell you Ivan is full of ****.

Woah woah woah woah... Marth has much more range than Meta Knight?

LMAO, I wish.

Natural Range..... He FEELS like he has more range... Unless your taking moves like Shuttle Loop and the tornado into account.

If MetaKnight truly had more range than Marth, then I would have much more problems with MetaKnight than Marth. If I can grab MetaKnight out of his Fair, but not Marth's, then he has more range!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok. ***** wasn't the word.

I'll say it plainly.

Yoshi is trash and won't affect the metagame significantly.

I think that's a much better way to put it and it's easy to understand.

 

[Tyser]

How about them Yankees?

 

[Ryusuta]

Ok. ***** wasn't the word.

I'll say it plainly.

Yoshi is trash and won't affect the metagame significantly.

I think that's a much better way to put it and it's easy to understand.

I'll say it even plainer. You're wrong.