• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
AZ, there's a problem with the MK challenge. I've looked through the results, and while you've beaten the MK's, I've never even heard their names before. Every time I run in to a name that I HAVE heard of before, they're listed as a win (for example, Ally). There's even one name in there I recognize as a Pokemon Trainer main that doesn't even play MK that lost to you. And I don't see one well known MK player in there.

I strongly suspect that most of the people challenging you are non-MK mains or really poor players. Ally beat you and doesn't even main MK. I'm not saying this proves anything, but rather the opposite; the sheer number of wins you have DOESN'T prove something because it's mostly bad players.
I think it is also important to note that AZ lives and breathes Diddy vs. MK and said "Diddy counters MK" long before NL ever did anything. He came to the conclusion first, and now molds evidence to fit.

He's gone out of his way to play as many MKs as possible.... and still lost to Inui, even playing on FD twice (the stage that AZ has said to be a good matchup for MK).


Getting "close" doesn't really cut it... nor does one win or loss. We haven't seen Diddy's popping up around the country trying to counter MK and succeeding. We've seen Diddy's failling just like everyone else, and then someone who is decent at the game picks him up and just doesn't get destroyed but still loses and people count it as a victory.

The ban-MK group, on the other hand, has a ridiculously large amount of tournaments that have been plagued with MK.
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
Also, the results from eastern WA's first house tourney with MK banned are in. Please note that it was a small house tourney, with two normally MK mainers (brdy and Itakio) present.

1: Chip (Toon Link)
2: Valdens (Game & Watch)
3: Jamntoast (ROB)
4: Itakio (Pikachu)
5: Deva (Link)
5: Praxis (Peach)
7: Maos (Zelda/Sheik)
7: MasterKoga (Luigi)
9: brdy (G&W/Peach)
9: Kamaji (Snake/G&W)
Kamaji forfeited his second round because he had to go, and lost to Jamnt0ast in the first round. He's a Snake main, but Jamn's ROB beats him pretty consistently, so he took G&W against Jamnt0ast. He does NOT normally play G&W, and thus lost anyway.

Itakio's a MK main, and played Pikachu, though he took G&W against Jamn because he always complains about G&W.

brdy took G&W vs Jamnt0ast.

Valdens' G&W eliminated Jamnt0ast twice.

Soooo Jamnt0ast got the short end of the stick. Otherwise it was pretty good. Granted a very small sample, but still very good.
 

QUIVO

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
3,297
Location
Columbus Ohio
Give it more time before banning MK. The fact that AZ and I don't go to tournaments much and had some close games against Inui's MK is IMO good. I mean we play online, and then with each other like... every other week?
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
Wow I'm liking these MK-less results a lot.
I'm holding out for when the people who main MK in other regions also disappear from the top 8.

If the names on the results thread don't change, the only thing the ban is doing is make the people not placing happier to lose money at every tourney.
 

VulgarHandGestures

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
326
I'm holding out for when the people who main MK in other regions also disappear from the top 8.

If the names on the results thread don't change, the only thing the ban is doing is make the people not placing happier to lose money at every tourney.
top 8 doesn't pay.

top 3 does.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
I don't know what to think anymore.

I am a Sirlin fanatic. I own a hardback copy of Playing to Win, still in perfect condition. I've written him emails asking him to further clarify on certain points, just so I had no ambiguity in my head of what it was exactly that he wanted me to do. I bring up "Introducing the Scrub" at the first sign of the word "Cheap."

Sirlin plainly states in his article "What should be banned?" the rules for banning. We have no problem with the first two rules, as they are about tactics. The third rule is the whole heart of the matter, though.

Sirlin said:
A ban must be warranted.
Well duh, but we have yet to figure out if it is warranted or not. Currently, it is possible to do well in a tournament, even win a tournament, without playing Metaknight. However, playing Metaknight gives you the greatest chance of winning, as he has no bad matchups and no bad stages.
Sirlin said:
Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!
Is the game better without Metaknight? Is it more competitive? Will the better player win more often? Character matchups come into play more. There is less neutrality. Simply because the vast majority of tournament matches played are going to be played between two characters that do not have a neutral matchup with each other, players who are better will still lose. The game goes from 0% character, 100% player, to 10% character, and 90% player, or something along those lines.

It's not as if diversity doesn't exist already; not everyone who is winning tournaments plays Metaknight, just the majority. There are still people out there who are placing highly and winning tournaments who aren't playing Metaknight.

Without Metaknight, there would still be a "best character"; it just wouldn't be Metaknight anymore. This new character would become the center of the metagame, and Smashboards would revolve around tactics for beating this new character. The pikachu boards would be working on a way to beat GaW's turtle, or perhaps find a way to catch Rob's top while it was being thrown. The PT boards would be looking for ways to force Marth into an Ivysaur upsmash.

In Melee, most non top tier characters were countered by another character, be it a top tier character or not. Not everyone was countered by sheik; some characters had an advantage over sheik. Not everyone was countered by Marth, some characters had an advantage over Marth. Ness might have done very poorly against Marth, but Ness's upthrow > uair did well enough against fast fallers that he had a standing chance of beating them, even if he didn't have the "advantage" against them.

In Brawl, every single character in the game is countered by the same character: Metaknight. This is a slight exaggeration, but it isn't far from the truth. Instead of the counters being spread around the tier list, they are focused only on one character. It is not that he inherently is broken, it's just that he happens to have a moveset that happens to do very well on every stage and against every character.

Is there any difference between these two concepts? Yes. Akuma wasn't just the counter to every character; he was broken. There was no chance, no hope of beating him. In Akuma-legal tournaments, everyone who played Akuma would get higher placings than everyone who didn't play Akuma. He was all the characters' counter to such an extreme that he ceased to be simply the conglomeration of all counters, instead becoming the only viable tournament character.

All that is speculation; obviously. Akuma was banned long before he was able to actually dominate the tournament scene. That doesn't change the facts, though. You cannot compare Metaknight to Akuma. Metaknight was at least designed with the game in mind; Akuma was designed to destroy all of the other characters in the game.

So, yes, there will be more character diversity in the game if Metaknight is banned. The only thing we will actually lose is Metaknight; nothing else bad will happen. In this case, second-best tactics are better for the game than best tactics. However, that is not the only criteria.

Sirlin said:
The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.
Does Metaknight completely dominate the game? No. He does not. Other characters are still winning tournaments, and over half the characters who place top 8 in tournaments aren't Metaknight.

So, what does Sirlin mean by dominate the game? Every single character's metagame right now is solely about how to beat Metaknight. However, he doesn't actually dominate the game; he is just doing well in tournaments. He dominates the metagame. He does well in the game.

What do we do?

The game would be better if Metaknight were not in it.
Sirlin said:
Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called “soft ban.”
This is the stage where we are at right now, except instead of soft bans, we are simply testing the waters with various MK-less tournaments.
Sirlin said:
There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan—a soft ban—on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.
This sounds exactly like our situation! Old Sagat severely hurt character diversity. Metaknight severely hurts Character diversity. Old Sagat is soft-banned in Japan, and this allows many characters to be played who wouldn't have had a chance to be played otherwise. However, Metaknight, instead of being the 2nd or 3rd best character in the game, is the absolute best character in the game, having no bad matchups.
Sirlin said:
If someone had made these claims in the game’s infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don’t have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can’t beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.
We are in the game's infancy right now. Perhaps we are almost at the glass ceiling of skill; perhaps this game is as shallow as it seems and very soon people will get to the point where they cannot get any better, and Metaknight will simply win everything. Or perhaps Metaknight's skill cap is about to be reached, and eventually some other characters will surpass him. Is it worth the wait?

And yet, banning him right now will make the game better instantly! What do we do?

I don't know.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
Your post is reasonable and stuff, but i don't like it when people refer to Sirlin as an authority. He's not a smashboards mod, he's not in any authority at all.

I personally think that MK has already fulfilled mr. sirlin's definition of a bannable tactic though. His definition is that the tactic is unbeatable, and the tactic of selecting MK for your next fight (or for practicing MK more than other characters, to be technical), that tactic is not beatable. No other character selection tactic will improve your chances of winning any more than picking meta knight.

Do MK players lose? Yes, but i've never seen a match of mk losing and said "wow, he could have improved his chances if he had picked a different character." It doesn't happen.
How do other characters win tournaments? There are "soft ban" effects in place, even in America. For ages, anyone who came to this forum and posted a "who should i main?" thread was told to pick a character that suited their playstyle, not one that was good. It's a value, a virtue of sorts. Not everyone who plays smash truly plays to win. Everyone plays to win after the character selection screen. But people will pick a character that doesn't maximize their chances of winning for three reasons or so:
It suits their playstyle, which is the "right" way to pick a main
Japanese-style aversion to playing a totally dominating character
It's just fun to them

So some players don't play to win at the character select screen, then play to win afterward. Sometimes, the player without the total play-to-win motivations wins, because he's globally, all around better than the guy playing MK.

It's really bizarre to me that everyone discusses tournament results as if everyone would be picking MK for every tournament they entered if they thought he was the best shot of winning. That's clearly not true. I mean cmon!!! People are out there winning tournaments with Captain Falcon and Ganondorf!! Do you think they all truly believe that their best chance of winning lies with those characters?
Anyway... i need to calm down... go play some halo...
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
popsofctown, Sirlin is an authority because he is the most knowledgeable person in existence regarding competitive gaming. He just happens to have never dabbled in Smash. He isn't writing for Smash, so don't claim that because he isn't an expert on smash, he isn't an authority that we should look to.

Also, did you read my post? Because you replied to it, specifically, and then seemed to not really discuss anything it talked about at all. Particularly because my post talked about how perhaps Sirlin was wrong in this instance.
 

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Do MK players lose? Yes, but i've never seen a match of mk losing and said "wow, he could have improved his chances if he had picked a different character." It doesn't happen.
At the tournament that changed Overswarm's mind about MK, he was eliminated by Kel. The first match, Kel played MK and lost. Second, he picked Peach and won. In the finals, DSF picked MK first and got destroyed by Anther's Pikachu, so he switched to Snake and won. Myself? When I played Ripple I won with Pit, switched to MK when he picked LM and lost, then switched back to Pit and won.

It certainly happens, people are just ignoring it when it does in favor of whining and trying to sculpt the game to fit their own bull**** standards of what is "fun" or "fair."

How do other characters win tournaments? There are "soft ban" effects in place, even in America. For ages, anyone who came to this forum and posted a "who should i main?" thread was told to pick a character that suited their playstyle, not one that was good. It's a value, a virtue of sorts. Not everyone who plays smash truly plays to win. Everyone plays to win after the character selection screen. But people will pick a character that doesn't maximize their chances of winning for three reasons or so:
It suits their playstyle, which is the "right" way to pick a main
Japanese-style aversion to playing a totally dominating character
It's just fun to them
This would be a good point if the very idea of a "soft ban" wasn't so easily confused with people being scrubs. "Don't play MK cause he's lame" or "Don't play MK cause he's not fun" is not too much different than "Don't play MK cause he's cheap" right? A real soft ban would be "don't play MK because everybody, not just the people I play with on a regular basis, generally agrees not to," and of course this statement is absolutely false.

I wager that less than 10% of the people who "soft ban" Metaknight actually know what they're talking about or could succeed in any tournament with any character. Of the people who support a hard ban? Even less.

This whole discussion is a fad initiated by a few butt-hurt and extremely vocal players (Chillin, Overswarm, etc) and perpetuated by the scrubs. The top players at all these "MK-dominated" tournaments don't even generally agree with the idea of a ban, at least not right now. Their opponents' response? "Well of course you don't want to ban MK because you play him!"

Utterly childish. -.-
 

NeoCrono

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
573
Location
Charlotte, NC (where the bobcats play)
We are in the game's infancy right now. Perhaps we are almost at the glass ceiling of skill; perhaps this game is as shallow as it seems and very soon people will get to the point where they cannot get any better, and Metaknight will simply win everything. Or perhaps Metaknight's skill cap is about to be reached, and eventually some other characters will surpass him. Is it worth the wait?

And yet, banning him right now will make the game better instantly! What do we do?

I don't know.
I really hope that we have barely scratched the surface of how deep this game can be. But it makes me think, since the meta game is evolving so fast. Have we almost reached the the games complexity? I don't think we have, or at least I hope we haven't reach the the full depth of this game. As of now, everyone focus is not how the game can evolve, but how to beat MK. I just want to know how this game is going to evolve lol.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
At the tournament that changed Overswarm's mind about MK, he was eliminated by Kel. The first match, Kel played MK and lost. Second, he picked Peach and won. In the finals, DSF picked MK first and got destroyed by Anther's Pikachu, so he switched to Snake and won.

It certainly happens, people are just ignoring it when it does in favor of whining and trying to sculpt the game to fit their own bull**** standards of what is "fun" or "fair."
The tournament didn't change my mind. Having to play 7 or so MKs in a row pissed me off, but what changed my mind was playing DSF's MK, getting wrecked, playing his Snake, wrecking him, and then doing MK dittos and doing better than I ever did with ROB. I then played MK against other people and found MK was really, really easy and really, really good.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to beat MK... private groups of some of the best ROBs out there, threads in the back room, IMing Mew2king, playing almost solely against Metaknights for practice... nothing worked as well as playing MK myself.

Others have come to the same conclusion and will continue to do so. Even you second Metaknight when you are taken to an odd stage.

This whole discussion is a fad initiated by a few butt-hurt and extremely vocal players (Chillin, Overswarm, etc) and perpetuated by the scrubs. The top players at all these "MK-dominated" tournaments don't even generally agree with the idea of a ban, at least not right now. Their opponents' response? "Well of course you don't want to ban MK because you play him!"

Utterly childish. -.-
Yeah. Me, Chillin, Neo, Dojo, a lot of Washington and Texas, Lousiana... it's just coincidence that our numbers are growing and those opposing the ban are shrinking.
 

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
The tournament didn't change my mind. Having to play 7 or so MKs in a row pissed me off, but what changed my mind was playing DSF's MK, getting wrecked, playing his Snake, wrecking him, and then doing MK dittos and doing better than I ever did with ROB. I then played MK against other people and found MK was really, really easy and really, really good.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to beat MK... private groups of some of the best ROBs out there, threads in the back room, IMing Mew2king, playing almost solely against Metaknights for practice... nothing worked as well as playing MK myself.
Same thing could have been said about Sheik in Melee about 4-5 years ago, especially for people playing Marth. There are counters among the top tiers in both games. This is not new.

Add to this the fact that DSF may or may not have as much experience in MK dittos as he does against ROB. The exact same logic you guys use to defend MK when he gets beat by the likes of Diddy and Pikachu goes both ways, you know.

Others have come to the same conclusion and will continue to do so. Even you second Metaknight when you are taken to an odd stage.
I was doing this from the very beginning, if you remember. It's not a decision I came to reluctantly. Besides that, though, almost everybody at least seconded Fox in Melee for many of the same reasons. Ken, for example, was saying the exact same things about Fox when he picked him up, the only difference is he never called for a ban because he knew better. :ohwell:
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Same thing could have been said about Sheik in Melee about 4-5 years ago, especially for people playing Marth. There are counters among the top tiers in both games. This is not new.
Shuffling was an advanced tactic then rather than a staple to the metagame.

Our community has grown quite a bit since then. Regardless, Sheik never dominated as much as MK is now.

Add to this the fact that DSF may or may not have as much experience in MK dittos as he does against ROB. The exact same logic you guys use to defend MK when he gets beat by the likes of Diddy and Pikachu goes both ways, you know.
Except we cite multiple occasions, while those against banning MK site single occasions. A nice bonus is that these same hereos that finally overcome MK and "prove" that MK can be beaten.... get beaten by MK shortly after. It's not even always the same MK. There are hordes of Metaknights, while only a few players that each main some random character and occasionally manage to win an uphill battle.

I was doing this from the very beginning, if you remember. It's not a decision I came to reluctantly. Besides that, though, almost everybody at least seconded Fox in Melee for many of the same reasons. Ken, for example, was saying the exact same things about Fox when he picked him up, the only difference is he never called for a ban because he knew better. :ohwell:
That and Fox had people that were his equal in Melee. If there were 4 or so Metaknights, I'd just say "sorry guys, main one of the four MKs" like I did in Melee.

Imagine Melee with Fox... but remove Sheik, Marth, Falco, Peach, and the ICs. That's what we have with Brawl.

Sure, you'd see a captain falcon like darkrain just wreck a few Foxes here and there... but he'd still lose overall. There's an awesome Pika that gimps a few spacies here and there... but still loses overall.

That's what is happening in Brawl.

There's no one even near the same level as Metaknight.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
How would an MK in a tournament where someone else fought nearly 7 MKs in a row not have decent ditto MK skill and make it that far?
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
How would an MK in a tournament where someone else fought nearly 7 MKs in a row not have decent ditto MK skill and make it that far?
Becuase I played them all, not him XD


I think his MK ditto skill more or less is better referenced via other tournaments... ya know, like HOBO 11 where the top 8 were mostly MK.
 

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
That's what is happening in Brawl.
Not yet. Maybe it will happen in the future, but not yet.

There's no one even near the same level as Metaknight.
We shall see. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but the community shouldn't be looking for certainty, not possibility. Obviously our standards for certainty differ, but speaking out so vocally among those so inclined to follow fads is only going to pollute the results.

If everyone switched to Metaknight over time without threads like this to urge them it'd be a much more telling problem than it will be now.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
We shall see. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but the community shouldn't be looking for certainty, not possibility. Obviously our standards for certainty differ, but speaking out so vocally among those so inclined to follow fads is only going to pollute the results.
Aren't you looking for possibility in a counter for Metaknight, while we are merely observing him destroying everyone and winning far and above the majority of tournaments?
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
GofG made a ridiculously good post. wtf dude, i give you kudos. and yeah, we really don't have a good idea of what to do right now to fix this problem. honestly, testing the waters is fine right now, but it's too early to completely ban him. in half a year, i think we will know for sure if this was just a mk fad or the beginning of the process toward banning him. this movement is quickly gaining speed, and the fact that the seed has been planted in the minds of smashers that perhaps we CAN ban a character will eventually lead to a ban. imo. mindsets are changing. this isn't melee. this game isn't as strong as brawl is, competitively. and meta knight is a good part of that. for the good of the game, perhaps an mk ban would be the best move, or else brawl may die sooner than it should.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
I wouldn't mind Overswarm giving his opinion on my post. While I have agreed with him in the past, along with Yuna, it just feels like we really feel that MK should be banned, we want him to be banned, its obvious to us that he needs to be banned, so then we go out and look for evidence. Overswarm, Yuna, Doctor X... I think everyone is at fault. I just feel like we need to take a step back and examine our own point of view.

I used to be adamantly against the ban, looking at it from a purely Sirlinist perspective. Eventually I reexamined my own beliefs and found that I don't really know what we should do. I encourage everyone, particularly Overswarm and especially Yuna.

Steeler36, I hate brawl and think it should die as soon as possible. Brawl does not deserve to be played at a competitive level. If you are implying that not banning metaknight will cause Brawl to die, I say we go ahead and not ban him.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
GofG, you're an etilist jerk...

The problem is that most people want MK banned. I'm dead certain, if Falcon was as good ppl wouldn't want him banned
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I wouldn't mind Overswarm giving his opinion on my post. While I have agreed with him in the past, along with Yuna, it just feels like we really feel that MK should be banned, we want him to be banned, its obvious to us that he needs to be banned, so then we go out and look for evidence. Overswarm, Yuna, Doctor X... I think everyone is at fault. I just feel like we need to take a step back and examine our own point of view.

I used to be adamantly against the ban, looking at it from a purely Sirlinist perspective. Eventually I reexamined my own beliefs and found that I don't really know what we should do. I encourage everyone, particularly Overswarm and especially Yuna.

Steeler36, I hate brawl and think it should die as soon as possible. Brawl does not deserve to be played at a competitive level. If you are implying that not banning metaknight will cause Brawl to die, I say we go ahead and not ban him.
Sirlin is not an authority on Smash, and smash is a unique fighter.

Unlike most other fighters, the concept of smash literally revolves around counterpicking. In other fighters they might have bad matchups, but in smash it is the heart of it. Metaknight breaks that mold, while every other character fits in it quite well.

I think it is also important to note that our tournaments dwarf the tournaments that were so worried about Old Sagat and Akuma in both size and number.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
in response to the vids posted back a couple pages. I saw a lot of mistakes and missed opportunities for Inuis MK.

DJ basically won with the falco comment and vid. Lasers are a little harder than the banana since you can float over them. The bananas hurt the tornado if you move along the ground. I forget if a throw banana stops it but DJ already covered that with the lasers
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
Regardless, Overswarm, his criteria still makes sense. Ban something when it dominates the game, to the exclusion of everything else.
 

Espy Rose

Dumb horse.
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
30,577
Location
Texas
NNID
EspyRose
Regardless, Overswarm, his criteria still makes sense. Ban something when it dominates the game, to the exclusion of everything else.
I'm curious as to your definition, or Sirlin's, on "dominate".

He's getting banned, just stop trying. It's going to happen. Might as well do it now to save us some time.
 

Kalm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
496
Location
Enterprise, Alabama
NNID
Unibias
3DS FC
1650-2449-3447
These are the results for the Wichita Bi-weekly in which we tested a Metaknight ban. People had expressed interest in seeing what our results would be like (Metaknight has won all Bi-weeklies before this).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5215539#post5215539

1: Karmacide_________Snake
2: KY________________Pit/Falco
3: Nynja_____________Diddy
4: Clel_______________Fox/Marth
5: Zeton_____________Fox
5: Steeler____________Pokemon Trainer/G&W/Lucario
7: ChaosTheory_______Lucas
7: InfernoRage_______ROB/Zelda/G&W/Random/Pikachu/Toon Link
9: Domo_____________Marth/Pit/Olimar
9: Ratman___________Snake
9: ArkiveZero_________Link
9: Attackstorm_______Falco
13: Affinity__________D3/G&W/Marth
13: AlexRooster______G&W/D3
13: Artik____________Snake
13: 4do_____________Marth
17: Zhao____________Toon Link/Lucario
17: 4lorn____________G&W/ROB
17: Tempest_________Toon Link
17: Lil' Azen__________Lucario
17: Fino_____________Olimar
17: 4rce_____________Toon Link
17: Holmes___________Kirby
17: Insane-o-tron_____Mario/Luigi
25: 4ever____________Sonic/Toon Link
25: The Irish Guy______Ice Climbers
25: Tan______________Toon Link
Thanks to DanGR.
This is why Meta Knight needs to either be limited or banned. This is an awesome list to see, and represents what a fighting game should be like more than anything else. The only people that don't want this are the people that simply want to win at all costs and do whatever it takes, or the hardcore Meta Knight fans.
This list is going to become common one day, and I doubt it will be because of a discovery that doesn't favor Meta Knight.
Just sitting back and waiting for the community to limit or ban him.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
OS: Please don't imply stupid crap about how counter picking isn't important in other fighters.

SF INVENTED counter picking dude.

And smash isn't the first game to have characters with no bad match-ups.

Smash is different though and having no bad match-ups in a conventional fighter is different then having no bad match-ups in smash because there are elements that exist in Smash that don't exist in other fighters and the reverse is also true.
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
Unlike most other fighters, the concept of smash literally revolves around counterpicking. In other fighters they might have bad matchups, but in smash it is the heart of it. Metaknight breaks that mold, while every other character fits in it quite well.
So assuming MK is gone, who counters Marth?

Though even if Marth doesn't prove to be broken like MK, I still think we need a better standard for banning rather than "no counterpicks and winning most of the tournaments". After all, it may turn out MK's absence makes another character broken and we must consider whether or not to ban them, or perhaps Smash 4 will have a character that turns out to be broken, but in different ways from Metaknight.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
So assuming MK is gone, who counters Marth?

Though even if Marth doesn't prove to be broken like MK, I still think we need a better standard for banning rather than "no counterpicks and winning most of the tournaments". After all, it may turn out MK's absence makes another character broken and we must consider whether or not to ban them, or perhaps Smash 4 will have a character that turns out to be broken, but in different ways from Metaknight.
You would CP with the characters that have a slight advantage over him. Such as Snake or Dedede, possibly Wolf or DK (last two still debatable).
 

Kalm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
496
Location
Enterprise, Alabama
NNID
Unibias
3DS FC
1650-2449-3447
I don't see how any character will be able to achieve Meta Knight's level of OPness. However, if people do focus on a character like Marth more to try and exploit him, then that is still what the community needs to develop this game's overall metagame.
Stating again though, I don't see so much focus going into one character and I don't see one character becoming broken like MK is.
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
Guys, on the discussion on Sirlin: Sirlin actually once discussed a topic almost EXACTLY like the MK ban situation. Want to get his opinion on it?

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

*right after talking about how Japan soft-banned Akuma*

That’s all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is “too good.” Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

The character in question is the mysteriously named “Old Sagat.” Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he’s not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma’s air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn’t count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn’t even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don’t know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan—a soft ban—on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

If someone had made these claims in the game’s infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don’t have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can’t beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.
MK seems just like Old Sagat. He makes half the characters in the game competitively unviable, and is the best character in the game (Note: Sirlin says Old Sagat was DEBATABLY- MK is unquestionably, which means MK is actually worse).

Sirlin does not draw a conclusion as to whether or not a ban was warranted, but notes that the Japanese ban resulted in a lot more tournament variety, and states that such a ban may have been warranted but he is inconclusive.

Now consider that MK is BETTER than Old Sagat.

A ban is not unquestionable or scrubby, and even Sirlin-purists who don't want to ban everything should respect that.
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
You would CP with the characters that have a slight advantage over him. Such as Snake or Dedede, possibly Wolf or DK (last two still debatable).
Those characters are roughly even with him, though. Statistically all of Marth's matchups are either "good" or "neutral" (I don't care what anyone says, 45:55 in either direction is too close to even to claim a clear advantage to the 55, even if Marth is the one with it).
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Those characters are roughly even with him, though. Statistically all of Marth's matchups are either "good" or "neutral" (I don't care what anyone says, 45:55 in either direction is too close to even to claim a clear advantage to the 55, even if Marth is the one with it).
He hardly ***** anyone, though. He has a few neutrals, a ton of 60:40's, a good amount of 65:35's, and then a few **** matches against characters who are hardly ever used in tournaments. Meta has a ton of **** matches, and on top of that doesn't really have any weaknesses like Marth does.

See the difference?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom