The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[IxxI]

Maybe, the answer to beating MK is final smashes!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Certainly not

 

[BentoBox]

Lol, you guys are so easily baited.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

he's kidding, guys.

jeez.

 

[Discolicious]

lol smash balls in tourneys!

 

[pridy]

rofl at ppl thinking hes serious

 

[aeghrur]

Eyyy, sonic has a better final smash than MK. WOOOOOOOOOOOOT. lmao.

 

[Master Raven]

... Can we go back on topic?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What you've read are outdated matchup guides. On of the first characters to be featured on most characters matchup threads was MK. Back then MK players hadn't learned to play the way they do now.

You'd think people would redo the matchup charts against Meta at this point..... There's certainly enough *****ing about him.

 

[Daimonster]

Adding to spam to feed the troll fire.

 

[liverymen]

Oh me, oh my.
HOBO11
1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta)
9: Chuck (meta/pkmn)
9: Ky (pit)
9: Dojo (meta)
9: Magik (pkmn)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

stop posting Hobo results. Everybody knows them by now. They prove nothing

 

[Zelc]

Or what I said:
Two characters. Either two mains or a main and secondary. It'll revolve around the Top 4, still.

Top 4, probably. But it's a lot better than the Top 1.

45:45 is barely worse. It's neglible. And it counts as neutral.

Yes, but it is worse. $45 isn't that much different from $50 (especially with inflation, yay!) but you'd rather have the $50. And worse means that picking MK is the strictly dominant choice in any metagame. Even if we suppose Marth's worst matchup is 50:50, he would only be weakly dominant, and in an all-Marth environment people are just as well off picking Snake/DDD/ROB as they'd be if they picked Marth. That Snake has a slightly advantageous matchup on Marth means that an all-Marth metagame is not an equilibrium.

No, what we're establishing is not if it'll happen, that would be speculation. What we're establishing is that if it happened, will we ban him?

With MK gone, Marth wins big time.

If Marth came to dominate a la MK, and suddenly we find he is the strictly dominant choice? I'd argue yes, he should be banned. But I doubt that will occur, and if it doesn't we might as well talk about what happens if DDD or Snake got that popular.





What do you think about the strict dominance standard for banning? It isn't arbitrary; we'd expect a game with a strictly dominant character choice to collapse into a metagame of that one character (which most people agree is something that should be avoided). A weakly dominant character choice, however, does not force this breakdown. This allows us to distinguish between a character that's just popular or people just whining with a character that actually causes problems in the game and forces players who want to win into just one choice.

 

[Discolicious]

When a character has no visible counters/advantages against, you give players who play for money little choice but to use him. Hmmm I could play MK and win money or be honorable by trying to play someone else and lose my entry fee...probably gonna go MK if I were a pro....

 

[Steel]

Marth has like... weaknesses.

Meta like... doesn't.

Why are we comparing the two again?

 

[Swordplay]

I don't know

Meta does have a weakness....It's Tripping

Its the only thing holding him back!

 

[XienZo]

They both have PHYSICAL weaknesses, like MK is super light.

However, they both don't have match-up weaknesses, as in no character has the right characteristics to focus on them without getting hit by Meta/Marth's strengths.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Wait wait, so you're saying that when someone picks up MK, they're suddenly good... yet when it comes to Marth, they're gonna suck? That's not logical at all. A bad player who picks up MK is still a bad player. A bad player who picks up any character is still a bad player.

The only difference between MK and Marth is that Marth isn't as good as MK, but that doesn't matter because both pretty much have virtually the same match-ups against most everyone (chaingrab things aside), except MK does it a bit better. Marth's advantages don't disappear when a bad player uses him - as a Ness player, a decent Marth should be able to still stand a very good chance at beating me.

The whole "a character is as only as good as its player" argument doesn't work here because, according to your logic, either 1) a bad MK should be = a bad low tier, but you say it's not for some crazy reason (based off of your Marth/MK comparison) or 2) a player is made good because he uses a good character... which also doesn't hold any water because then Marth (a very good character, as you should know) wouldn't have "99% bad players" like you guys claim he does... or else there wouldn't be a pile of trash MK players as well; but there are trash MKs and there are trash Marths. The player doesn't magically become good with one and still stay terrible with the other.

mk is a -much- better character than marth and closes skill gaps with like.. his b moves alone


inui = usually placed **** losing to good, betetr plays like atomsk...


last week = picked up mk recently, beat atomsk and ninjalink? lol? do we need any more proof?

and LMAO @ both virtually have the same match ups.. who the **** are you playing? are you even playing? who do you use?


"mk does it a bit better"


embarassing

 

[Emblem Lord]

Calm down NEO.

His overall argument is sound. But MK does close gaps with players that do know how to play abusively.

 

[ixdnL]

Since the last I checked this thread, dozens, no, scores of pages later, MK and Marth are still being compared.

What can I say that could possibly express my disappointment.

 

[Master Raven]

The argument isn't Marth is almost as good as MK. Yuna is basically criticizing a certain criteria for banning MK, which is him having no disadvantageous matchups and possibly a few neutrals at worse. Accordingly, Marth is in a very similar position.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

his criticism is invalid. it's obvious to everyone that, regardless of what the matchup charts say, mk is tearing through the competitive scene, and marth... well, for a character that yuna claims is just as bannable as mk, nobody seems to consider him any more of a threat than any of the other highly ranked characters.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Their positions can't be that similar or we'd be getting lots of Marth hate as well.

 

[Discolicious]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sethlon, one of the best falcos ive seen has reportedly switched it up to MK. Yet another example of needing to main MK to be competitive?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Seth used Falco at Hobo11

 

[doom dragon 105]

Banning MK is unnecessary, it's too early to say, with he arrival of new AT's it could change the teir list big time.

And I still think Snake>MK

 

[infomon]

his criticism is invalid. it's obvious to everyone that, regardless of what the matchup charts say, mk is tearing through the competitive scene, and marth... well, for a character that yuna claims is just as bannable as mk, nobody seems to consider him any more of a threat than any of the other highly ranked characters.

It doesn't matter that MK is "tearing through the competitive scene" (and it's debatable how much this is actually happening with respect to what's required for a ban); it matters what the reasons are that so many are using MK. If it's just that MK is popular (which is part of Yuna's Marth argument), then that does not merit a ban.

Even if many people are switching to MK for tournaments now, it might just be because it would take more time/dedication to perfect their main to a point where it's as good as their (easier to play) MK; but that doesn't mean their main wouldn't be a perfectly viable tournament-quality contender if they were able to put in that time.

I mean, I don't know how many of our pro players are actually quite playing Brawl at the highest level of play that needs to be what's considered for a ban. Since it (presumably) takes non-MK characters longer to get to the highest level of play.

*hopes this makes sense*

 

[null55]

And I still think Snake>MK

Hahahaha....

 

[BibulousDan]

ok well why wasnt melee fox banned? i dont see a reason for a ban

 

[null55]

One obvious reason, Fox could be gimped.

MK cannot be gimped and he can gimp everyone else.

 

[pridy]

ok well why wasnt melee fox banned? i dont see a reason for a ban

i h8 when we ppl some here asking questions that are asked over and over again

fox had "counters"/ ppl on his level
whilst MK has no "counters" / ppl on his lvl

adding on just for some info that most people know
Ken WAS the best melee player yet he picked marth who wasn't #1 on the tier list
and The best person in brawl picks meta or picks meta/another character

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

ok well why wasnt melee fox banned? i dont see a reason for a ban

Because melee fox actually had weaknesses and bad match-ups......

 

[Daimonster]

Because melee fox actually had weaknesses and bad match-ups......

^^ QFT.

The reason why Marth isn't considered as superiorly broken with 0 bad matchups is because of his large array of 50:50 matchups once MK is removed from play. Players then have the choice of using characters who soft counter others and also slight disadvantages against others. Metaknight on the other hand, has a noticeable advantage against all characters.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

and because that was melee this is brawl a whole other game. If you don't belive me go try and wave dash with roy

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It doesn't matter that MK is "tearing through the competitive scene" (and it's debatable how much this is actually happening with respect to what's required for a ban); it matters what the reasons are that so many are using MK. If it's just that MK is popular (which is part of Yuna's Marth argument), then that does not merit a ban.

Even if many people are switching to MK for tournaments now, it might just be because it would take more time/dedication to perfect their main to a point where it's as good as their (easier to play) MK; but that doesn't mean their main wouldn't be a perfectly viable tournament-quality contender if they were able to put in that time.

I mean, I don't know how many of our pro players are actually quite playing Brawl at the highest level of play that needs to be what's considered for a ban. Since it (presumably) takes non-MK characters longer to get to the highest level of play.

*hopes this makes sense*

Makes perfect sence. Except I don't think it is true. I think MK might just have a higher max potential, and the character might just be better than the rest of the cast at every level of play. So noobs go up to scrubs, scrubs to tourney winners, and tourney winners to unparalleled, and the former unparalleled players need to take MK up simply to keep defeating the previously average tournament winners, if that makes sence.

I think the problem wouldn't be as pronounced if the best few players in the country didn't all play MK at the highest level. You know, if there was a "Ken" in Brawl who used a character like Marth and proved that MK was not necesary the only choice for those who want to be the best, like he did against Foxes and Falcos in melee.

Without some other character doing even remotely as well, we don't really have any evidence that MK isn't bannable, only that he is too good.

 

[Mmac]

I think though that IF MetaKnight gets banned, I do not think that Marth will take his place. Yeah, he has no disadvantages also (Even though they're not as severe), but he has actual, physical weaknesses that any character can take advantage on.

 

[Jigglymaster]

ok well why wasnt melee fox banned? i dont see a reason for a ban

Play against a good Jigglypuff player in Melee with Fox.

I don't see MK having any flaws like that.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

I think though that IF MetaKnight gets banned, I do not think that Marth will take his place. Yeah, he has no disadvantages also (Even though they're not as severe), but he has actual, physical weaknesses that any character can take advantage on.

Meta Knight's lightweight is a physical disadvantage though.

------------------
It's not that Meta Knight doesn't have ANY disadvantages, it's that no other characters can exploit them properly. Well it's not even that; they can, it's just Meta Knight can stop them from exploiting them. Am I right in saying this?

I don't think Meta Knight should be banned; even though he does have an advantage over all the charactes so-far, if somebody is better than whoever is playing Meta Knight, then they are sure to find a gap in meta's playstyle, and attack through that gap.

 

[p0ser]

I don't think player skill should be entered in the equation during this discussion. when two players are of equal skill (hypothetically), meta knight's inherent advantages shine through. Yes, better players could overcome mk's advantages, but the reverse argument of the mk player being better shows how that argument can't really hold. if mk was banned, it is true that someone would take his spot. The benefit of this though is the gap between those characters and the others is smaller than mk and the other characters (which has been admitted by almost everyone in the discussion and has been said by many members). if we want to speak of marth in this discussion, what does he do that meta knight can't? isn't meta knight a generally upgraded marth (great spacing, improved recovery, best priority, fast speed, decent throws, ability to gimp others easily)?

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

I don't think player skill should be entered in the equation during this discussion. when two players are of equal skill (hypothetically), meta knight's inherent advantages shine through. Yes, better players could overcome mk's advantages, but the reverse argument of the mk player being better shows how that argument can't really hold. if mk was banned, it is true that someone would take his spot. The benefit of this though is the gap between those characters and the others is smaller than mk and the other characters (which has been admitted by almost everyone in the discussion and has been said by many members). if we want to speak of marth in this discussion, what does he do that meta knight can't? isn't meta knight a generally upgraded marth (great spacing, improved recovery, best priority, fast speed, decent throws, ability to gimp others easily)?

I see your point and I agree now that player skill shouldn't be considered.

However I'm sure that Meta Knight has flaws in his attacks; maybe stale moves? Do %'s drop fast for meta? Plus Meta is a lightweight, and though it is hard to get shots on him, a decent amount will do him in.