The NO-OHKO Item Rules-set.

[AnimeSnoopy]

This and Items-off are the only ways I play brawl. Inmho, this is the best rules-set outside of items-off play. 'Chuck and kill' instant KO items (as seen at evo2k8) such as bats, bumpers, etc. have all been removed. The very few items on the list capable of KO's cannot kill at low percentages and most are user manipulated, not simply thrown. The only extremely dangerous item on the stage at any given time is of course: the smashball. Below is the rules- list itself.

Items set to medium.
3-stocks.
Sets are best of 5

-Smashball
-Sandbag
-Food
-Warp star
-Bunny hood
-Beam sword
-Lips stick
-Star rod
-Super scope
-Cracker Launcher
-Freezie
-Smokeball
-Hot-head
-Mr.Saturn
-Green shell
-Banna reel
-Spring
-Unira
-Team healer
-Franklin badge
-Screw attack


I know alot of people loathe the smashball, but bear with me here. Smashballs do spawn in random locations, but what makes it different from any other item is:

1.) The fact that the item must be broken and cannot be instantly acquired regardless of where it spawns.

2.) If attacked but not broken the smashball will float towards the other player.

3.) The smashball is fought over, not 'given' to anyone.

4.) Unlike other items, when spawning close to the other character, it can be to your advantage. Why? because if the other player makes the attempt to break it and weakens the smashball, it's pretty much all yours if you're nearby.

Mindgames 101 people. Don't hit the smashball first if your opponent is right next to you, He'll more than likely intercept it (something I saw a lot of at evo by top players, unfortunately.) The only time you take the initiative to hit the smashball first is when the opponent is already a good length away from you. If the smashball appears right beside you and the opponent, a good idea is to knock the opponent away, then proceede to take the smashball.

I am not suggesting anyone replace the traditional rule-set with this. There IS more of a luck factor with this rule-set, however, I do not believe that the luck outweighs the skill, or even comes close to outweighing skill. The whole "items = no skill" argument in brawl is largely based off of MELEE'S meta-game and on all-items play. Not on brawl's meta-game and not on custom item sets. No-one made a strong attempt at item tournies at the beginning of brawl like they did for meele. They took the data from meele item tournies, looked at it, and applied it to brawl. Meele went through evaluation steps to reach it's current meta-game. Brawl skipped those steps.

I don't understand why everyone is against a secondary meta-game, or "Items-league." for brawl that they don't have to be a part of anyway. I'm not trying to flame, or be rude, just stating my opinion.

(Plz test my item-set next time you play brawl.)


Also see: The " Dodging final smashes." video-set, here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193850

/End.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Hi, there's already an Item's Standard Play thread on this board that's been stickied for months.

 

[Vyse]

Hi, there's already an Item's Standard Play thread on this board that's been stickied for months.

Which is found here.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

Put forward your opinion there.

 

[KernelColonel]

Hi, there's already an Item's Standard Play thread on this board that's been stickied for months.

/thread

10threads

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

Which is found here.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

Put forward your opinion there.

I just thought that was for discussion about SBR's rule-set, not an altogether different one.

 

[pure_awesome]

Smash BackRoom unfortunately does not have an items ruleset. ISP is a completely independant org.

 

[Yuna]

Wait, you call it the No-OHKO ruleset, yet the Smash Ball, and Warp Star are on? Those are pretty much OHKO. The Warp Star is hard to hit with but with SBs, many FS:es are OHKO... at not at all hard to hit with.

 

[Denzi]

These rules + a Tier list based on them = sonis wins.

 

[Foxy]

Smash Balls are easier to break for the losing player. You can also knock a final smash out of the winning players more easily.

Not good for competitive play. Plus, Falco's = 3 kills.

 

[Yuna]

Smash Balls are easier to break for the losing player.

As far as I know, this is untrue.

You can also knock a final smash out of the winning players more easily.

This is true. Additionally, it's harder for the winning player to knock it out of the losing players.

Plus, Falco's = 3 kills.

If you're an idiot.

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

These rules + a Tier list based on them = sonis wins.

Either that or "Sonic banned." im hoping the fact the sonic's ariels have a hard time breaking the smashballs is enough to prevent him from becoming "Meta-Knight 2.0"

Smash Balls are easier to break for the losing player. You can also knock a final smash out of the winning players more easily.

Not good for competitive play. Plus, Falco's = 3 kills.

To my knowledge smashballs do not break easier for the losing player. Rather, they gradually become easier to break the longer they stay on-screen without being broken by someone.

C'mon now, you honestly lose all 3 stocks to one landmaster? Sometimes I lose no stocks to Falco's landmaster. The most I lose to it is 1.

 

[ph00tbag]

For the record, a thrown Star Rod is actually a surprisingly powerful semi-spike.

Also, adding items really just makes MK a lot better, since he also has one of the best glide tosses in the game.

 

[Crizthakidd]

even as a scrub i always hated items and so do my friends. i bet pple who like fighting games dont like items. lol if u like mario party u like items!

 

[Yuna]

C'mon now, you honestly lose all 3 stocks to one landmaster? Sometimes I lose no stocks to Falco's landmaster. The most I lose to it is 1.

Only if your opponent is an idiot. But you're right on the part that one should only lose one stock to it.

For the record, a thrown Star Rod is actually a surprisingly powerful semi-spike.

But knowledge like that requires one to have actually, you know, played with items and noted their properties properly before devising a ruleset! That's too hard!

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

For the record, a thrown Star Rod is actually a surprisingly powerful semi-spike.

Also, adding items really just makes MK a lot better, since he also has one of the best glide tosses in the game.

I disagree, because of MK's low priority vs. projectiles.
btw, have you seen C. Falcons star-rod tilit?

even as a scrub i always hated items and so do my friends. i bet pple who like fighting games dont like items. lol if u like mario party u like items!

This is a secondary rule-set, meant to be relatively competetive without scrapping some of the games funner mechanics. It's for people who want to play to win, yet get as much fun out of the game as possible. People who don't mind raising the stakes to do so. Relax, no need to have a tourney-f@gasim.

 

[cj.Shark]

metaknight isnt broken with items. its the opposite. Mk's basic weakness is 1) lgiht weight b) lack of p-rojectile. He makes up for them easily in 1v1 because he is hard to hit. Now say that to a thrown star rod. suddenly Mk doesnt seem that devastating anymore.

 

[GofG]

This is a secondary rule-set, meant to be relatively competetive without scrapping some of the games funner mechanics. It's for people who want to play to win, yet get as much fun out of the game as possible. People who don't mind raising the stakes to do so. Relax, no need to have a tourney-f@gasim.

Removing items makes the game more fun on any level of gameplay. Period.

Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.

 

[OrlanduEX]

metaknight isnt broken with items. its the opposite. Mk's basic weakness is 1) lgiht weight b) lack of p-rojectile. He makes up for them easily in 1v1 because he is hard to hit. Now say that to a thrown star rod. suddenly Mk doesnt seem that devastating anymore.

MK has just as much access to those items as everyone else. In fact, he gets to items better than most since he moves so well. If items are on, MK will be using them against you more than the opposite. Besides, a thrown star rod is no harder to dodge or block than any other projectile attack. With items on, you just give MK a bunch of new weapons to pad an already powerful moveset.

 

[cj.Shark]

but if both sides have a much more powerful moveset( classic blunt items)
then Metaknights moveset suddenly is not to great in comparison.

 

[GofG]

Let's pretend Metaknight is a 10 on the "goodness" scale and Pit is a 5.

Items adds 10 to both characters goodness score.

MK is now 20, Pit is now 15.

Is that what you're saying?

This argument is fallible. Metaknight has the best attacks in the game, but is weakened by the fact that he has no projectiles of his own. Items give him projectiles, and so he gains 10 from items.

Pit already has projectiles; however, he does not have that many strong KO moves. Very few items give you additional KO options (except for the wet 'n' wild holy**** broken insta-KO items like smashball), so Pit only gains 5 from items.

Pit has 10, Metaknight has 20. You lose.

 

[OrlanduEX]

but if both sides have a much more powerful moveset( classic blunt items)
then Metaknights moveset suddenly is not to great in comparison.

Not really. MK gets the same power ups as everyone else. It doesn't even it out. There is no advantage that anyone gets that MK doesn't.

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

Removing items makes the game more fun on any level of gameplay. Period.

Opinion much, not fact. Lol. Don't blend opinion with fact, They won't mix.

Imo, Items add a higher degree of gameplay options to the player. Fact: the skills one would use in the items-off metagame are all still available to the player. No technique is "cut" from the game this way. Items simultaneously increase both gameplay options and the "random-factor." Techniques developed to avoid final smashes, counter items, etc. add depth, but at a cost. A certain degree of luck falls into the equation. You as a player do not have control over item spawn. However you do control how you handle your changing enviornment. Like a game of poker, you can't pick the hand you're dealt, but you still have to play your cards right.

 

[cutter]

Dodging some final smashes is IMPOSSIBLE if you have a competent player using one. Spacies summon a Landmaster? That's a guaranteed stock; if not 2 stocks unless you have wings. Super Sonic? Guaranteed one stock loss.

I have seriously played with final smashes and a good deal of them are automatic one shot kills that just can't be stopped. I don't even want to begin the whole debacle about getting to the smash ball -_-

Speaking of glide tosses, G&W's glide toss is ridiculous. He slides halfway across Final Destination o_0

 

[OrlanduEX]

Opinion much, not fact. Lol. Don't blend opinion with fact, They won't mix.

Imo, Items add a higher degree of gameplay options to the player. Fact: the skills one would use in the items-off metagame are all still available to the player. No technique is "cut" from the game this way. Items simultaneously increase both gameplay options and the "random-factor." Techniques developed to avoid final smashes, counter items, etc. add depth, but at a cost. A certain degree of luck falls into the equation. You as a player do not have control over item spawn. However you do control how you handle your changing enviornment. Like a game of poker, you can't pick the hand you're dealt, but you still have to play your cards right.

In what fighting game is more random elements a good thing? The idea is that the match should be decided primarily by the abilities of the players, not random factors. A fighting game is not a game of poker. You generally don't want to randomly give your opponent unpredictable advantages, even if those are sometimes at your disposal as well.

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

Dodging some final smashes is IMPOSSIBLE if you have a competent player using one. Spacies summon a Landmaster? That's a guaranteed stock; if not 2 stocks unless you have wings. Super Sonic? Guaranteed one stock loss.

I have seriously played with final smashes and a good deal of them are automatic one shot kills that just can't be stopped. I don't even want to begin the whole debacle about getting to the smash ball -_-

Speaking of glide tosses, G&W's glide toss is ridiculous. He slides halfway across Final Destination o_0

I can and have gotten away from competent players using landmaster without dieing. Its very hard to do, but its been done already. Watch the "dodging final smashes" vids I linked to the thread in my OP. Super-sonic is the only exception.

*Edit*

@OrlanduEx

I was saying that items are good because they can add depth, but at the same time are bad because of the random factors. Still, there are skills designed to lower your chances of losing in the midst of randomness.

 

[Vyse]

In a game of Poker, you play the opponent through bluffing, and knowing when to fold.
Bad example for this situation. You can't hide the items you've been dealt.

Add to that, Items spawn randomly, which is just bad.

 

[GofG]

AnimeSnoopy, the point is, using the landmaster is always the best option and does nothing but give the player an incredible advantage. Whether or not it is ABLE TO BE DODGED is irrelevant.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not really. MK gets the same power ups as everyone else. It doesn't even it out. There is no advantage that anyone gets that MK doesn't.

The point being made is that items power up different characters differently. Similar to how different moves affect different characters different, certain items are more detrimental to opponents in the hands of certain characters, and certain items are more detrimental when used against certain characters then others.

For instance, reflector-users tend to do better against items in general. So the power of an item against a certain character depends on a number of factors, and like at EVO, I see very little to suggest that items rulesets are particularly helpful to mk, quite the opposite in fact.

Now Sonic and the space animals... different story.


Not that it makes items rulesets better in general... just something to point out.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The point being made is that items power up different characters differently. Similar to how different moves affect different characters different, certain items are more detrimental to opponents in the hands of certain characters, and certain items are more detrimental when used against certain characters then others.

For instance, reflector-users tend to do better against items in general. So the power of an item against a certain character depends on a number of factors, and like at EVO, I see very little to suggest that items rulesets are particularly helpful to mk, quite the opposite in fact.

Now Sonic and the space animals... different story.


Not that it makes items rulesets better in general... just something to point out.

I think items are particularly helpful to MK in that they give extra strengths to a character who already has everything. He gets more KO options as well projectiles which he wouldn't have otherwise, but he loses nothing.

 

[GofG]

I think items are particularly helpful to MK in that they give extra strengths to a character who already has everything. He gets more KO options as well projectiles which he wouldn't have otherwise, but he loses nothing.

a character who already has everything

projectiles which he wouldn't have otherwise

 

[OrlanduEX]

AWWWW. Screw you and your gotcha games. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think items are particularly helpful to MK in that they give extra strengths to a character who already has everything. He gets more KO options as well projectiles which he wouldn't have otherwise, but he loses nothing.

He has plenty of insane kill options already, sure he gets a projectile, but it's rare that he actually gets one that's not one-time-use, also they tend to be bad at forcing characters to approach. Granted, there are a few whifch are REALLY mk friendly. His final smash is also poor and he lacks a reflector.

Collecting items initially, he has a definite advantage, but besides projectile-shooters they don't do much for him.

 

[Yuna]

metaknight isnt broken with items. its the opposite. Mk's basic weakness is 1) lgiht weight b) lack of p-rojectile. He makes up for them easily in 1v1 because he is hard to hit. Now say that to a thrown star rod. suddenly Mk doesnt seem that devastating anymore.

Ummm... one of his weaknesses is that he doesn't have a projectile. With items on, he magically gains some...

Meta-Knight is very fast and mobile, making it easier for him to grab items. Than most people. Most of the Bottom Tier are bad item players because they're slow and cannot get to items as well as others.

 

[OrlanduEX]

He has plenty of insane kill options already, sure he gets a projectile, but it's rare that he actually gets one that's not one-time-use, also they tend to be bad at forcing characters to approach. Granted, there are a few whifch are REALLY mk friendly. His final smash is also poor and he lacks a reflector.

Collecting items initially, he has a definite advantage, but besides projectile-shooters they don't do much for him.

MK's kills mostly come from edge guarding. With items like Star Rod, MK has the strength to kill outright as well as edge guard. The metagame is already permeated with projectile spammers like Pit and Falco and MK is doing just fine. He doesn't need a reflector.
And I wasn't even talking about FSs. There's simply no good reason to turn those on if you're going to play with items at all.

I'm not saying that MK becomes any more unstoppable than he already is with items on. I'm saying that turning on items doesn't really help to make MK any less busted because they give him new strengths without removing any of his natural abilities.

 

[adumbrodeus]

MK's kills mostly come from edge guarding. With items like Star Rod, MK has the strength to kill outright as well as edge guard. The metagame is already permeated with projectile spammers like Pit and Falco and MK is doing just fine. He doesn't need a reflector.
And I wasn't even talking about FSs. There's simply no good reason to turn those on if you're going to play with items at all.

I'm not saying that MK becomes any more unstoppable than he already is with items on. I'm saying that turning on items doesn't really help to make MK any less busted because they give him new strengths without removing any of his natural abilities.

It's true that he mostly kills via edguarding, but that doesn't mean that he can't kill outright. For instance, downsmash is a safe kill move. Edit: He just tends to gimp people via his edguarding.


As for reflectors, the point I'm making items that add to the a moveset tend to be very powerful one-time use projectiles. Sure MK can utilize them as well (giving him another kill move obviously), but they hurt him more then they help him because they make it easier to people to get in kill shots without approaching him, characters with a reflector tend to be hurt a lot less by this fact.

That combined with his low weight make him a great deal easier to kill.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK has more KO options than just Edgeguarding. Wat about: Nair, Dsmash, UpB, Fsmash, ...

 

[OrlanduEX]

It's true that he mostly kills via edguarding, but that doesn't mean that he can't kill outright. For instance, downsmash is a safe kill move. Edit: He just tends to gimp people via his edguarding.


As for reflectors, the point I'm making items that add to the a moveset tend to be very powerful one-time use projectiles. Sure MK can utilize them as well (giving him another kill move obviously), but they hurt him more then they help him because they make it easier to people to get in kill shots without approaching him, characters with a reflector tend to be hurt a lot less by this fact.

That combined with his low weight make him a great deal easier to kill.

A great deal easier to kill? Not really. You don't need a reflector to avoid a projectile. Like I said before, there are plenty of projectiles in the metagame right now, and those aren't stopping him. And I didn't say MK has no outright kill moves. I said that he mostly has to rely on edgeguarding since his kill moves require like 120% or more.

MK has more KO options than just Edgeguarding. Wat about: Nair, Dsmash, UpB, Fsmash, ...

Again, edgeguarding isn't his only means of KO, but the moves you mentioned don't kill at any less than 120% against anyone with decent DI.

Nair is mostly used to edge guard. D smash requires you to be close to the edge to kill at any less than 120% and since you tend to rely on it, it is usually not fresh when you need to KO.

Up B is not that strong. And fsmash is his slowest and laggiest kill move. MK generally kills with dair or up b on an opponent who is already off stage. With lots of smashing items on as well as powerful one shot projectiles, his ground game just becomes more solid.

 

[Yuna]

It's true that he mostly kills via edguarding, but that doesn't mean that he can't kill outright. For instance, downsmash is a safe kill move. Edit: He just tends to gimp people via his edguarding.


As for reflectors, the point I'm making items that add to the a moveset tend to be very powerful one-time use projectiles. Sure MK can utilize them as well (giving him another kill move obviously), but they hurt him more then they help him because they make it easier to people to get in kill shots without approaching him, characters with a reflector tend to be hurt a lot less by this fact.

That combined with his low weight make him a great deal easier to kill.

Meta-Knight has an easy time racking up damage but it's a bit hard for him to outright KO people. With items on, it's much easier. Your logic?

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

The point is that MK's fighting style is dependant on constant approaches and smothering your opponent with lighting fast high-priority attacks. Items are more detrimental to meta-knight than most other characters. Meta-knight has to stay in your face more than other characters to be effective, because his hits have low knock-back and low damage. He racks up damage quickly by smothering you. Other characters don't need to hit as constantly for the same amout of damage. However, items can stop MK's perpetual approaches. If MK can't stay on you 24/7 then his game-plan weakens. Other characters don't need to stay on you as much anyway, so they are effected less by items.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A great deal easier to kill? Not really. You don't need a reflector to avoid a projectile. Like I said before, there are plenty of projectiles in the metagame right now, and those aren't stopping him. And I didn't say MK has no outright kill moves. I said that he mostly has to rely on edgeguarding since his kill moves require like 120% or more.

Of course not, but it provides a double effect, and it's especially efficient with one-time-use items like thrown bludgeoning items.

And again my point is that he generally gimp kills via edguarding at relatively low percents, giving him items that kill at higher percents then he's gonna be getting opponents to doesn't really help him all that much. Sure, he CAN ko at a lower percent then usual, but it's going to be more useful for a character who's trying to ko him.

Meta-Knight has an easy time racking up damage but it's a bit hard for him to outright KO people. With items on, it's much easier. Your logic?

Edguarding gimps are still his thing because he can kill of, it's just easier for him to edguard. Because of his light weight he's more vulnerable to getting killed off early because of items then the majority of the cast.

It's pretty much the same reason why Yoshi's Island (the one with the pipes) counter-picks MK, you make it easier for everyone to outright kill and characters that are much better at edguarding then killing outright tend to get the short end of the stick.