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The No-Johns Ruleset

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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Fair enough. I'm not pretending to argue that the stage absolutely should be on, and I'd be 100% fine with a TO that decided to ban it even while running this ruleset. Me personally, I don't think the results are that randomized, but I see where that's a lot of my own opinion.

I still think there's lots of fun potential on the stage for creative use of terrain and obstacles, but mostly it just turns into upsmashing, so meh. I would maintain that it should be on for friendlies always.
 

Bones0

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Would you mind giving us your take on the whole modding the randomness out of stages discussion? Do you find modding things like Shy Guys on YS, wind on DL, or blocks on GG to be in opposition to what you want your ruleset to accomplish?
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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yeah thats the problem with it, the fun potential is through the roof so long as the other guy isnt laser camping while waiting for up smashes (fox) or double shines off the top (falco)

corneria is similar, but with like half the fun too

the problem with modding is that we already dont get enough setups to tourneys, cut out all the gamecubes and then all of the unmodded wiis and youre left with a bigger problem instead of a solution
 

Bones0

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yeah thats the problem with it, the fun potential is through the roof so long as the other guy isnt laser camping while waiting for up smashes (fox) or double shines off the top (falco)

corneria is similar, but with like half the fun too

the problem with modding is that we already dont get enough setups to tourneys, cut out all the gamecubes and then all of the unmodded wiis and youre left with a bigger problem instead of a solution
Well obviously the logistics of it are a problem, but I was mostly talking theory. Like if we could get mods onto GCN memory cards somehow, would it even be an accepted alternative to this ruleset?
 

BigD!!!

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depends on your goal/outlook

i'm pretty sure prime would say no, since the point of this whole thread is preserving as much of the original game as possible in the tournament scene without damaging the scene

modding the stages is demonstrating a clear lack of satisfaction with any stages in the game and subjecting the game to the opinions and preferences of the hivemind within smashboards
 

KishPrime

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Everyone likes to think that they'd make the perfect game if they could mod it, but there's basically nothing that everyone will agree on when changing a game with millions of players. For every change you make, you alienate some segment of the population. And of course, in this situation the moment you make a single modded change you remove 99% of the possible players of a game, since they will never be interested in making that level of effort. Project M gets around this constraint, Melee cannot. But then, Project M does not pretend to be the "true" version of Brawl - they even gave it its own name instead of all the Brawl+s. The feeling that I've always gotten from people is that they think their idea of what is important in Melee is the "real" or "true" version of the game, but I hate that approach.

Video games are art, to some extent, and not science. We're not the artists for the game's framework and tools - we're the artists that paint with those tools. In this case, there are some moldy splotches on the picture that have to be cut out. But maybe while cutting out those splotches, I think, "Man, I really don't like having that tree painted like that" and I cut that out, too. And then, I look at a flower and think, "I could do a better job there," and I paint over the flower. At what point does it become my own creation instead of the original piece of art? We've already lost so much just from having to cut out the mold, so why keep messing with the artist's original work?

If you ever see casuals comment on the tournament scene, their primary criticism boils down to "that's not the game we play." They're right, of course, and it will always be that way on some level, but at what point does it literally become a different game? Modding is, in essence, what the neutrals-only, items-off stagelist already does. It takes out a significant chunk of the game such that it is almost unrecognizable to the common player.

We really tried to find ways to keep items in during the early days. I think that's the biggest chunk of the original game that we've lost, and the biggest point of contention with casual players. At FC1, we had Items On for first-round pool play. Still caused way too much havoc on results. At some point, you do cross a line that competitive players are not willing to cross when it comes to randomness, and that's fair. The Turnip Threshold is a way to try to talk about that line in a logical way Would love to see someone try to quantify it.

Anyway, I have a lot of personal beliefs about the topic, but that's why this is such a contentious topic. Everyone has a lot of personal beliefs about the topic. That's why I always opposed a standardized ruleset for the community, especially for a game with this many options built into it. I'd love to see a major, FD-only tournament. That'd be extremely interesting as a one-time exercise - players would have to practice for it and you'd see the real state of so many matchups on that stage.

That's probably well enough on my wall-of-texting.
 

Ghostbone

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I feel Kongo Jungle 64, Jungle Japes and Green Greens all cross the turnip threshold.
I'm unwilling to except something such as Kongo Jungle's barrel, which is completely random, either saving someone's stock or ending it at whim. Jungle Japes has the random klap trap that OHKOs, which you can be hit into during a combo, which randomly makes the combo a lot more rewarding than it may have been. Green Greens has the random blocks and bomb blocks, which can randomly save or kill you, the exploding apples are also a minor issue.
 

Bones0

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If you ever see casuals comment on the tournament scene, their primary criticism boils down to "that's not the game we play." They're right, of course, and it will always be that way on some level, but at what point does it literally become a different game? Modding is, in essence, what the neutrals-only, items-off stagelist already does. It takes out a significant chunk of the game such that it is almost unrecognizable to the common player.
I can pretty much agree with most of what you've said, but I think you may be looking at the situation too linearly. While modding is usually associated with removing parts of the game, in this case it could be used to restore the game closer to its original state. Making minor modifications to stages like Jungle Japes and Green Greens could instantly add them back into the stage list. The situation with mods could become, "Would you rather have a 98% accurate Green Greens, or no Green Greens at all?" I think most people would agree that the loss of the blocks, wind, and apples is not as bad as the entire stage.
 

KishPrime

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While I agree with you in principle, it hits on a lot of dangerous areas.

1. You wipe out of a good portion of players who see a modded game being played at tournaments and think "I'm not interested, too difficult," whatever
2. It does get into slippery slope. A lot of people would seize on the opportunity to remove all randomness from the game, multiple versions of stages would exist and be used, and you're just fragmenting the community more and more. Just like none of the Brawl versions got any real traction, the same thing would happen here. Who ends up being the judge of which stages get changed and which don't? What happens if people find out that raising the platforms on Battlefield by 10 pixels make the Fox/Falco matchup much more even, and affects no one else? Do we make that change "for the good of the game?"

I sincerely believe that it's better to just go with a smaller stagelist than to get into modding.
 

Kal

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Hey everyone, for my tournament on Saturday a few people have voiced complaints about Onett. As Kish mentioned, a lot of people feel that Onett is broken by Fox. I would like to see some discussion on this stage. Does anyone have any justified opinions either way?
 

Bones0

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Hey everyone, for my tournament on Saturday a few people have voiced complaints about Onett. As Kish mentioned, a lot of people feel that Onett is broken by Fox. I would like to see some discussion on this stage. Does anyone have any justified opinions either way?
I don't feel like writing anything specific, but I talked a lot about walk-offs a couple posts back if you want to read those.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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I would agree with Kish that the walk-off edges are not necessarily gamebreaking, and that they don't even necessarily degenerate gameplay. It's "high-risk high-reward." But I did not read those posts in depth (I'm lazy), so I'll reread them before forming a final opinion on walk-off edges. However, the walk-off edges seem like less of an important issue with Onett than the absurdly low ceiling.
 

Van.

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It's time for everyone to just man up and admit that no one ****ing wants to play on ****ing MK2.
 

BigD!!!

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the onett problem isnt the walk off sides, its the low ceiling combined with the houses in the middle. horizontal ko's become nearly impossible, and theres only one character that really has reliable vertical ko's vs almost any other character. combine this with the fact that fox can run really fast and hide behind houses and force you to approach from above while shooting a laser at you if you dont, plus he has walls to play with, and you end up with fox pretty much breaking this level

a lot of stages are banned because of fox, but i think this one deserves it more than green greens and probably even corneria but hes really good there too
 

Kal

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Yeah, I can see Fox breaking this stage. I need a few days to consider removing it from my tournament on Saturday. Kish, if you ran a tournament would you ban Onett?
 

KishPrime

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Shrug. I'm sure your decision will be fine. It's in the questionables for a reason. Big D outlines the problems pretty well.
 

ChivalRuse

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Yoshi 64, Onett, and Kongo Jungle (Rock) are all stages I'd like to see enter (or re-enter) tournament play. I personally don't think camping on the banned Yoshi/Kongo is any more effective than on the legal Kongo. And Onett could be legal as long as Fox isn't one of the characters playing on it (or if Fox is, it can only be against characters he can't waveshine infinite). :)
 

Rubyiris

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GaW can't manual wall-jump, though.

MK2, Falco dittos only. You may only shoot a maximum of 9 lasers a set.
 

KishPrime

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YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS projectile limits are just what this ruleset needs. Also jump limits and walltech limits.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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joshus proposed no randomness ruleset sounded pretty good

only fd, only grabs to avoid phantom hits
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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until you can intentionally control when they happen, they are for all intents and purposes random

and dont bother telling me about some dumb **** peach can do if you switch the game to japanese and go to hrc

cool it bros
 

Varist

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you'll never be able to fully control when anything happens in melee. people screw up wavelanding from the edge all the time, it doesn't mean SDing from it is random
 

Kal

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While I agree with you, Varist, he has a point. Practically speaking, whether you phantom hit is completely out of your control. On the other hand, whether you screw up your own waveland is under your control.

However, an obvious response is that whether your opponent screws up a waveland is out of your control, and that is clearly not random. Though you can attach probabilities and assume it's random for a practical method of guessing whether your opponent will screw up a waveland.
 

Varist

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That's a better analogy. But I wouldn't say it's completely out of your control. It's just pixel-perfect critically dependent on spacing and your opponent can move in an unpredictable way, shifting it in and out of your control. idk, i look at phantom hits as blessings rather than problems.
 

Kal

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Well it can both be a blessing and a problem. If you consider it "practically random" (and there's nothing wrong with that; the vast majority of gameplay boils down to what's "practically random"), in the long run the good phantom hits will happen as often as the bad ones.

In other words, while these things aren't technically random, there's certainly a practical randomness, in the same way you would attach a probability to your opponents chance of doing a certain move out of shield, or teching a certain direction (or not at all). Essentially, it's simply noting that things happen in certain proportions and assuming that those proportions are probabilities. Technically, the events are not "random" (what does random even mean?), so whether it's logical to attach probabilities to them is open for debate (and more of a philosophical question than a scientific or mathematical one). However, there is a clear practical usage in doing so; if 30% of the time your opponent techs in place, 65% he techs to the left, and the remaining 5% he either techs to the right or not at all, then it makes sense to assume he will tech to the left and act accordingly. But whether it's correct to say "there's a 65% chance he will tech to the left" is open for debate.

It's important to realize that, in this way, everything is "random." But when people say something like phantom hitting is random, they actually mean "out of our control." There's a large difference between the two, and I don't think it's incorrect to say that it's so difficult to phantom hit that it's definitely out of our control.
 

Kal

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So my tournament was moderately successful (21 entrants), but many players just "agreed" to play on only the neutral stages in many sets.

I'm starting to think that this ruleset can not ever pick up because people have already convinced themselves that strategies are broken without having provided any real proof. At the end of this tournament, the losing Doubles team tried telling me that a Double Fox team was broken on this ruleset, because he has too many counterpicks, based on one set in grand finals in which the losing team could choose to strike only one of Onett, Green Greens, and Pokéfloats. The losers didn't even take the idea home and think of counter strategies; there was no obvious counter strategy at the time, so it must be broken.

Very disheartening. I would like to see more stages made legal, but I think too many new players who don't understand what should be banned are influencing the ruleset. And, now that things are banned, it's effectively impossible to ever go back. Unbanning something is virtually impossible.
 

Kal

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Can you tell me why you think 6 or 7 stages is perfect? If it boils down to subjective preference (i.e., I prefer the skills tested on these stages), then I think we can agree that it's certainly not fair to ban anything unless you come up with a better reason.
 
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