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The Nitpick Thread

Veggi

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I didn't say 3D World doesn't count, I said NSMB doesn't. Because the game relegates you to playing as Mario in single-player, ergo, he's the only one canonically involved in things. 3D World lets you choose your hero based on who you like best.

And again, Toad has never flat out fought anyone. SMB2 is a dream, and he doesn't have to take any part in 3D World if you don't want him to, so it's not a solid basis for characterising him. You never have to see him besides the opening cutscene and ending credits, if you don't want to.

And I didn't insult anyone's argument, can I not throw a little pun-related joke in every once in a while when taking part in a tedious debate over whether or not a piece of walking fungus should be playable in Smash, and then throw a little troll face in to indicate said joke, to lighten things up?
Luigi was in Smash 64 despite only appearing when the player didn't want to play as Mario. Also, I was referring to you just ignoring Toad's role in 3D World. Mario games aren't about the story. If the developers thought it was reasonable enough for Toad to put himself in danger to destroy Bowser's army, Bowser's huge bosses, and Bowser himself, then why wouldn't he be able to put himself in another dangerous situation in Smash?

Mario games consist of destroying enemies that can attack Toad and Toad easily being able to fall off a cliff to his death. Why would Toad be any less willing to participate in Smash Bros., which also consists of enemies attacking Toad and Toad potentially falling to his death? They are exactly the same thing as Toad's playable appearances that he willingly takes part in.

I don't get how ignoring Toad's existence in a game hurts his chances. He's playable. There are a lot of Mario appearances where you don't have to even play as Mario. You never have to play as Rosalina in any game. She wasn't even in 3D World's story. Also, if Toad got lost, then why is he at the end of the game no matter what? Toad being playable in so many games, having his own game, and being an important NPC in many Mario games is a testament to his importance to the series.

And yeah, you did. You definitely called his argument flimsy.
 

Flaxr XIII

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I can make stupid arguments too
Ugh that's completely different and you know it. We've seen Toad already. Unless they pull an Alfonso, that's all Toad will ever be.

I mean if they had put Toadsworth as Peach's special, then MAYBE Toad would've been in question. But they didn't. It's still default Toad.

At least they changed so that Dedede throws only Gordos now so that makes Bandanna Dee more likely than Toad.
 
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josh bones

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Captain Toad can't even jump. He's literally a downgrade of regular Toad. And the throwing turnips thing is already Peach's anyways.
If captain toad can't jump then :4pit: should not be able to fly. :4samus: should not be able to fight without permission, :4mario: can only take 2 hits, :4charizard: dies in water, and :4olimar: would be an ant
 

TheDarkKnightNoivern

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I didn't say 3D World doesn't count, I said NSMB doesn't. Because the game relegates you to playing as Mario in single-player, ergo, he's the only one canonically involved in things. 3D World lets you choose your hero based on who you like best.

And again, Toad has never flat out fought anyone. SMB2 is a dream, and he doesn't have to take any part in 3D World if you don't want him to, so it's not a solid basis for characterising him. You never have to see him besides the opening cutscene and ending credits, if you don't want to.
But in the opening cutscene in both Wii, U and 3D World you see him going off with mario and luigi meaning he does in fact take part in the adventure, and if it is non-canon (which it clearly isn't) the same could be said for luigi, peach and rosalina

Captain Toad can't even jump. He's literally a downgrade of regular Toad. And the throwing turnips thing is already Peach's anyways.
And link can't jump without throwing himself off something, what's you're point?
 
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Flaxr XIII

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If captain toad can't jump then :4pit: should not be able to fly. :4samus: should not be able to fight without permission, :4mario: can only take 2 hits, :4charizard: dies in water, and :4olimar: would be an ant
Fair enough. But give Captain Toad the ability to jump and it'll take away the thing that's unique about him, therefore making him just a regular Toad and making your arguement invalid.
 

josh bones

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Fair enough. But give Captain Toad the ability to jump and it'll take away the thing that's unique about him, therefore making him just a regular Toad and making your arguement invalid.
I thought him being indianna jones was what made him unique?
 

Flaxr XIII

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I thought him being indianna jones was what made him unique?
Oooh okay. And that alone makes him Smash worthy? I don't think so....

But hey, to each their own I suppose. I'm a Bandanna Dee supporter so what do I know? (even though Bandanna is a far more superior upgrade from regular Dees than Captain Toad is to regular Toads).
 

ChikoLad

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Luigi was in Smash 64 despite only appearing when the player didn't want to play as Mario. Also, I was referring to you just ignoring Toad's role in 3D World. Mario games aren't about the story. If the developers thought it was reasonable enough for Toad to put himself in danger to destroy Bowser's army, Bowser's huge bosses, and Bowser himself, then why wouldn't he be able to put himself in another dangerous situation in Smash?
Because in Mario he is in danger, but he doesn't necessarily have to fight a whole lot. He doesn't have to punch anyone. 3D World is as meta as a game can get, it's not an immersive game with characterisation in the slightest. You have a bunch of recognisable faces you can use as avatars and that's really it.

And I'm going to be the first to recognise that Toad's inclusion in 3D World was only as a throwback to SMB2 USA. It wasn't meant to seriously reflect his character, he's just a random player avatar. A Blue Toad and a Yellow Toad are always used as extra player characters because the model is there. Nintendo use Toad as playable out of pure laziness in these platformers, and knowing that, I can't view it as a serious representation. Especially keeping in mind that there is no singular Toad in the Mario games, they are a race.
And this still ignores that Toad does nothing that Mario and the others don't already do.

You never have to play as Rosalina in any game. She wasn't even in 3D World's story.
3D World didn't have a story, as I already stated. It had a plot, not a story.
And Rosalina is still more important. In universe, she's god of the Mario verse. Toads wouldn't exist without her nurturing the cosmos and tending to the universe reboots. In real life, she was basically the main character of Super Mario Galaxy's story (most story sequences and plot exposition in the game revolve around her, making the "Mario saves Peach" plot an after thought by comparison), which just so happens to be one of the most critically acclaimed Nintendo games, and a lot of people specifically loved her in it. That alone warrants a Smash appearance, even if you ignore every other possible point that can be made in her favour.

Toad simply being in games as an extra in most cases is not important, especially since, again, it is not a singular character, it is a race.

And yeah, you did. You definitely called his argument flimsy.
That's not an insult, I legit think saying Rosalina has no merits and is in Smash only for promotion is a flimsy argument.

If captain toad can't jump then :4pit: should not be able to fly. :4samus: should not be able to fight without permission, :4mario: can only take 2 hits, :4charizard: dies in water, and :4olimar: would be an ant
Pit doesn't fly in Smash (his Up Special is the Power of Flight, which is a divine aid that let's him fly for five minutes. It can be powered by Palutena or Viridi).

And these things don't define the characters and are things that are often different depending on the game (Mario can take as many Blue Shells or Bob-Ombs to the face as he needs to in Mario Kart).
I'm not saying Smash has to adhere to every detail of canon, but the characters need to be represented as themselves in some way. Smash is allowed to bend the rules over things like size, but it can't just change a character's personality entirely, which would be necessary for Toad to fight in Smash. Because completely changing what makes that character who they are defeats the purpose of putting them in Smash.

Also, Captain Toad can't jump because his backpack is too heavy. If you take that away then it may as well not be Captain Toad.

But in the opening cutscene in both Wii, U and 3D World you see him going off with mario and luigi meaning he does in fact take part in the adventure, and if it is non-canon (which it clearly isn't) the same could be said for luigi, peach and rosalina


And link can't jump without throwing himself off something, what's you're point?
Define how those games are canon. Because the way I see it, you could take any of them out of the canon and no problems would occur, especially since they don't take place at any specified place on the timeline (yes, Mario has some degree of a timeline, albeit an incomplete one) in relation to other games.

Also, as I said before, if he is not there when I play through the game and only shows up in one or two cutscenes, and the game doesn't explain this, I can come up with whatever justification I want, since none is given to me, which can include him not participating.

Also, Link can jump. Walk up to a wall that's low enough and he can jump up and grab it.
 

Flaxr XIII

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Also Link can jump in Zelda 2 and I believe the Oracle games too.
Hell, his aerials are based off of Zelda 2. Mostly his up and down air
 
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josh bones

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Oooh okay. And that alone makes him Smash worthy? I don't think so....

But hey, to each their own I suppose. I'm a Bandanna Dee supporter so what do I know? (even though Bandanna is a far more superior upgrade from regular Dees than Captain Toad is to regular Toads).
That we can agree on. Dees 4 life
And I'm going to be the first to recognise that Toad's inclusion in 3D World was only as a throwback to SMB2 USA. It wasn't meant to seriously reflect his character, he's just a random player avatar. A Blue Toad and a Yellow Toad are always used as extra player characters because the model is there. Nintendo use Toad as playable out of pure laziness in these platformers, and knowing that, I can't view it as a serious representation. Especially keeping in mind that there is no singular Toad in the Mario games, they are a race.
There is no singular :yoshi64: either, they are a race.
And this still ignores that Toad does nothing that Mario and the others don't already do.
:falco: does nothing that :fox: doesnt do.

3D World didn't have a story, as I already stated. It had a plot, not a story.
And Rosalina is still more important. In universe, she's god of the Mario verse. Toads wouldn't exist without her nurturing the cosmos and tending to the universe reboots. In real life, she was basically the main character of Super Mario Galaxy's story (most story sequences and plot exposition in the game revolve around her, making the "Mario saves Peach" plot an after thought by comparison), which just so happens to be one of the most critically acclaimed Nintendo games, and a lot of people specifically loved her in it. That alone warrants a Smash appearance, even if you ignore every other possible point that can be made in her favour.
It's not like toad was the protagonist of his own game or anything, oh wait.

Toad simply being in games as an extra in most cases is not important, especially since, again, it is not a singular character, it is a race.
And so is :yoshi2: and technically all pokemon





Pit doesn't fly in Smash (his Up Special is the Power of Flight, which is a divine aid that let's him fly for five minutes. It can be powered by Palutena or Viridi).

And these things don't define the characters and are things that are often different depending on the game (Mario can take as many Blue Shells or Bob-Ombs to the face as he needs to in Mario Kart).
I'm not saying Smash has to adhere to every detail of canon, but the characters need to be represented as themselves in some way. Smash is allowed to bend the rules over things like size, but it can't just change a character's personality entirely, which would be necessary for Toad to fight in Smash. Because completely changing what makes that character who they are defeats the purpose of putting them in Smash.

Also, Captain Toad can't jump because his backpack is too heavy. If you take that away then it may as well not be Captain Toad.
Captain toad isn't known for not jumping, he's known for being adventure toad.



Define how those games are canon. Because the way I see it, you could take any of them out of the canon and no problems would occur, especially since they don't take place at any specified place on the timeline (yes, Mario has some degree of a timeline, albeit an incomplete one) in relation to other games.
Unless it's the cdi garbage, it's canon.

Also, as I said before, if he is not there when I play through the game and only shows up in one or two cutscenes, and the game doesn't explain this, I can come up with whatever justification I want, since none is given to me, which can include him not participating.
Aka fan theory. Are you gonna tell me that :4dedede:and :metaknight: aren't in kirby rtd now?
 
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Flaxr XIII

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Fair enough, Olimar, ness and lucas can't jump then
In the context of their games, they don't need to jump. But Captain Toad's unique characteristic is that he can't jump in the world of Mario AKA Jumpman. Take thay away and he's just a Toad with a different hat. And no, that alone still doesn't make him Smash worthy.
 

josh bones

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In the context of their games, they don't need to jump. But Captain Toad's unique characteristic is that he can't jump in the world of Mario AKA Jumpman. Take thay away and he's just a Toad with a different hat. And no, that alone still doesn't make him Smash worthy.
His unique characteristic isnt him jumping, it's him being dora the explorer toad
 

Flaxr XIII

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His unique characteristic isnt him jumping, it's him being dora the explorer toad
Then the Captain Toad levels would not be as unique as they were and they wouldn't be making a separate game out of it.
 

ChikoLad

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Him not jumping is a thing to make the game harder, not what he's about,
Him not jumping is the result of him having a heavy back pack, actually. In 3D World and Treasure Tracker, he attempts to jump if you press A or B, but can't lift off the ground. So yes, it has become his shtick in a way.

I actually like Captain Toad (and the Toad Brigade) a lot because he's like the only incarnation of a Toad that has any real purpose and defining characteristics beyond being docile. I don't think he could be playable, but I would love to see him as an Assist Trophy.
 
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Flaxr XIII

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Him not jumping is a thing to make the game harder, not what he's about,
And it's the game being harder that made the Captain Toad levels so cool and that's why they're making a separate game out of it.
And yeah that kinda is what he's about since I don't recall him jumping in the Galaxy games either.
 

josh bones

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And it's the game being harder that made the Captain Toad levels so cool and that's why they're making a separate game out of it.
And yeah that kinda is what he's about since I don't recall him jumping in the Galaxy games either.
Really, if it was just a regular toad who couldnt jump, would it get a spinn of game? The concept of an explorer toad is what makes captain toad him, the not jumpng is icing on the cake.
 

Flaxr XIII

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Really, if it was just a regular toad who couldnt jump, would it get a spinn of game? The concept of an explorer toad is what makes captain toad him, the not jumpng is icing on the cake.
Hmm you may have a point. So say that we gave a random Shy Guy an explorer hat. Does that suddenly make Captain Shy Guy eligible to be a Smash character?
(I just remembered that Shy Guy in Mario Party 4 had an explorer hat. And it was more Indianna Jones-y than Captain Toad's will ever be!)
 
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ChikoLad

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Really, if it was just a regular toad who couldnt jump, would it get a spinn of game? The concept of an explorer toad is what makes captain toad him, the not jumpng is icing on the cake.
Actually, you're still off the mark.

What makes Captain Toad special is that he is a defined character. We've only had unidentified playable Toads before, as well as NPC ones. Captain Toad is a character they are attempting to at least somewhat define, and he has a little story arc in the Galaxy games and everything.

It's not the fact that he can simply explore, because the Blue Toad in 3D World can theoretically be an explorer too since he searches for Green Stars if you play as him, which is what Captain Toad does in 3D World too. It's not the fact that he is an explorer that makes him stand out, it's that he has a degree of proper characterisation.

That's not just special for Toads, but for characters in the main Mario series in general.
 

josh bones

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Hmm you may have a point. So say that we gave a random Shy Guy an explorer hat. Does that suddenly make Captain Shy Guy eligible to be a Smash character?
(I just remembered that Shy Guy in Mario Party 4 had an explorer hat. And it was more Indianna Jones-y than Captain Toad's will ever be!)
SHow me captain shy guy, trasure tracker and we'll talk.
 

Rhus

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Someone tell me why Fox is absent on both box art covers but Pit (and Villager) are on both.

Don't get me wrong, Icarus games are great and Uprising was one of the best handheld games ever created, but Fox McCloud is far more important to Nintendo and to the Smash bros. series as a whole than Pit is.

This is coming from someone whom loves Pit as a character and has spent countless hours on Uprising.
 

CrossoverMan

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Can everyone please shut the hell up about Captain Toad for the love of god and all that is holy!
 

SpaceJell0

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Speaking of canonical sizes :troll: I want Wario to feel heavier and be taller than or at least as tall as Mario. It looked so weird in Brawl in my opinion. Especially considering how in Mario Party games he isn't that short.

I really hope this doesn't spark a debate it's just my opinion :(
 

King Orfut

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Captain Falcon's gloves.

They should extend outwardly like they did in F-Zero GX.

Also Lucina, Fox's design not being the Melee design, and Wii-Fit male should've been omitted.
 

Flaxr XIII

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Nickpick thread? More like argue about captain toad thread.
Correction: its the Nitpick about Captain Toad thread.
*cough* but yeah you have a point. We've gone way off topic and to think I first posted to try to break the argument only made it worse. I apologize...

But back to the topic. More nitpicks.

- Is Rosalina teleporting when she rolls or were they just too lazy to animate it?
- Tanooki Marth has the tail clipping through the cape. I know it's Smash Bros so clipping is natural but gah it's so jarring!
- I know they're trying to sell the 3DS version but can we at least get some info on Wii U exclusive modes now? We found out about Smash Run 4 months ago and I'm assuming the Wii U version comes out 3 months from now. Its time to show us something, Sakurai.
- I don't care about the 3D gimmicks since I never use it.
 

CrossoverMan

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The rather uninspired uses of the newer assist trophies and Pokemon assists. You would think a massive creature like Palkia would do more than just flip the screen over. It's even weirder that Skull Kid has the exact same function. :p

The fact that the animal characters still have realistic voices. It bugs me.

Some characters flipping their models when looking the opposite side. I have no justification for this one.
 
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